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This was/is still a heated debate today that I'm sure a few members may have changed there mind as time goes on---But it is entertaining to say the least!








Subvet
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



573 Posts
Posted - 10/31/2004 : 9:48:02 PM
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Having read on this forum about RC's being cleaned up/restored and referred to as Bubba job's. Are we to consider these as a seperate field of Mauser collecting? I saw my first RC a few years back when they were first arriving on these shores. It had a replacement M24 bolt and a park finish. I didn't think it was worth the $50.00 the dealer wanted. The eletric penciled #s and straight bolt were a turn off. I am not a purist, but I couldn't see the collectore value. I guess I could have bought it as potential parts. Do you specialize in RC's, or collect them in general?
Subvet

Fightin Scot
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
4002 Posts
Posted - 10/31/2004 : 10:42:01 PM
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I believe the RC are collectibles. They are still great rifles and a perfect piece of history. $50 for a RC is a great price, cannot belive you would pass it up. I don't specialize on RC, I am more of a Mosin man, but people do collect them, they are unique in their own way which is why they appeal to a lot of people.

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Claven2
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



Canada
3468 Posts
Posted - 11/01/2004 : 07:41:17 AM
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Well, Subvet, do you consider Finish Mosins to be collectable? Because these are essentially the same thing. Russian use of German parts to build what is now essentially a Russian service rifle. they're collectable as that, but not as an original Nazi K98 - though alot of people use them to fill in code slots in their collections until something better comes along.

Also, any "Mausers of the world" collection should have at least one representative example IMHO.

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"Oppressors can tyranize only when they achieve a standing army, an enslaved press, and a disarmed populace" - James Madison



Nirvana
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
709 Posts
Posted - 11/01/2004 : 08:28:57 AM
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Well put Claven.
Chris


jrobb45
Gunboards Premium Member



199 Posts
Posted - 11/01/2004 : 09:55:52 AM
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IMO, the rc's are sloppily rearsenalled parts guns. The Finns, on the other hand, actually improved and enhanced the 91/30's.

jrobb


Securityboy
Gunboards Premium Member



206 Posts
Posted - 11/01/2004 : 3:38:12 PM
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I say YES.
It really depends on your philosophy on this kind of stuff.
Are the current DCM/CMP 1903 springfields collectible, even though they came Greece?
What about "blue sky" M1 carbines? Unless it is a really odd/rare gun the $$$ difference between identical carbines is minimal today in which the only diffenance is one is a "re-import".
Now about RC K98's. Kraut dies/is captured his rifle ends up in one pile bolt in another. If it was our front some went home in a duffel bag, others found their way in bulk to places like France and later Isreal. Russians did the same thing, except took it one step further and refurbished them for future use. Funny when a USGI scratched his name and a date on a stock it is "history", but when the Russians electro the serial number on them they are "worthless".
Step away from the "gun" subject for a second and here is a similar story. I was at a Military Vehilce event once and there was a really nice 1944 jeep there all done up with USAF "decor". A re-enactor went up to the vehicle owner and yelled at him because the air force didn't exist in 1944 and that jeep should be painted USA. What the re-enactor failed to realize/think of is that when the the airforce split from the army aircorp they didn't go out and get new jeeps they just repainted thier old ones. Moral of the story just because something isn't as it was the day it left the factory doesn't mean it isn't "correct".


Candyman
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1312 Posts
Posted - 11/01/2004 : 5:36:26 PM
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Amen!

The RC's re-aresenalling are part of THE history of that rifle.

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"And shepherds we shall be, for Thee, my Lord, for Thee." - Boondock Saints


Bob in OHIO
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



1119 Posts
Posted - 11/01/2004 : 5:58:50 PM
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I respectfully take a more negative approach to the RCs. If you are into lugers there are only two classes...'collector quality' and 'shooter quality'.

Are RCs collectable... well sure, anything is "collectable". When I was younger, I really did collect barbed wire. I went to a b-wire show in LaCrosse, KS the Barbed Wire Capital of the World. Nice country too. In that show there were collections of steam irons, bricks, clothes pins, and bobbed-wire. That taught me that everything is collectable.

Now, ask yourself if RCs have "collector quality"... sorry, not by my definition. To summarize, you can have a collection of RCs but they do not have "collector grade" status or value. Back to the Luger analogy...matching and >85% original finish is a general requirement. While Lugers aren't K98s, I think the comparison is still valid. Refinish a luger, mix up the parts, stamp an X on the receiver and try to tell a luger collector you have a collectable and you'll be told ...nah, just a shooter...

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My CD full of K98 pics... http://bobinohio.com/

[email protected]


Nirvana
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
709 Posts
Posted - 11/01/2004 : 6:30:01 PM
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Oddly enough, I collected barbed wire a little bit too. I still have a copy of the barbed wire bible somewhere in my stuff...

Anyhow....any military rifle, reguardless of origin, is collectable to somebody, or else it wouldnt have value. That being said, its value is dependent on rarity, condition, and the type of collectors that collect the item.

USGI and german collectors draw more high dollar people, and when the prices reach 4 figure, it becomes a lot easier to class guns into 2 sections, collector and shooter, each with the according price. This isnt really a bad thing, its just what happens when the hobby fills up, and collectors with higher grading criteria begin to become the majority. A side effect of this is also an increase in fraud, or restamping, or whatever term you use. The net effect of this combined increased in price and fraudulent activity drives some people into collecting what others would label as "shooters". These are easier on the wallet, and you know you arent getting fakes (yet).

While these guns may not satisfy the upper tier of collector, for the casual, beginner, or more financially limited collector, these guns are an chance to get ahold of what wouldntve been available 5 or 10 years ago. (rare makers, SS guns, etc).

So...as I was saying, whats collectable is really just what each person feels. Some people love beanie babies, and would throw money at rares ones all day long. To me however, they are just glorified bean bags filled with PVC pellets. This is my choice, and how I spend my money is reflected in this.
Chris

Edited for typo

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Edited by - Nirvana on 11/01/2004 9:30:51 PM


Claven2
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



Canada
3468 Posts
Posted - 11/01/2004 : 8:49:21 PM
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When you people learn that these ARE NOT NAZI K98's!!!!! They are RUSSIAN MAUSERS that happen to be made of recycled German parts. Compare apples to apples~!

Regardless of quality the Russian Capture K98 is to Nazi K98 and the Finn Mosin is to Russian Mosin. Or how about the RC K98 is to Nazi K98 as the Danish mixmaster M1 is to USGI M1, or how about the RC K98 is the Nazi K98 as the Ishapore Re-arsenalled No.4Mk1 mixmaster is to a matching Longbranch.

Fact is, these ARE collectable as an example of a Russian Captured Mauser. As long as you don't look at it as a Nazi K98, and instead look at it for what it is - a Russian rifle, then you can avoid the snobbery I'm hearing above! Jeez people! Just because it didn't sit in the rafters of a vet's basement for the last 50 years does not mean the rifle has no value at all! I feel like a UCLA frat boy visiting Harvard for chr!stsake! I feel like I'm gonna be sick!

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"Oppressors can tyranize only when they achieve a standing army, an enslaved press, and a disarmed populace" - James Madison



madboy357
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
889 Posts
Posted - 11/01/2004 : 9:38:45 PM
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Your Finnish Vs. Russian Mosin argument is apples to oranges in comparison to this debate. The Russian added nothing here--no technological updates, no new ideas, not anything of value to enhance or make better the Kar98k platform. The Finn's had no choice but to adopt the MN, in that it was the only rifle they had available on the cheap. Adding heavy barrels(Finnish,Swiss, or German) better stocks with better bedding, better triggers, better sights, etc. All indigenously designed and manufactured. Or sometimes only a shim here, and a SA mark, then back to the field.

The Russians added no such features to these Kar98k's, and likely made them less accurarate and reliable through their meddling. All those parts painstakingly fitted, inspected, and serial numbered, to an end---a highly evolved combat arm. And the Russian's somehow made them better, eh?

The idea that these are no longer German is laughable; a collection of parts aside (anybody could have done this), but shellac and hot dip bluing, and maybe an occasional 'X' or pinged hakenkruez (when the vodka gods were smiling) does not a Russian rifle make.

RC's are certainly collectable, but their appeal is with their price and availability rather than their uniqueness. I would by no means look down on anyone who collected RC's exclusively, as long as they did it with vigor and enthusiasm.


jrobb45
Gunboards Premium Member



199 Posts
Posted - 11/01/2004 : 9:44:23 PM
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I think the correct term for these rifles is " Mauser parts guns."

jrobb


Subvet
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



573 Posts
Posted - 11/01/2004 : 11:04:49 PM
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Hmmm,
No need to get prickly, must be the cold up North! I never knew that RC's were considered Russian service rifles. I assumed they were repair job's made up of a mass of spare or junk parts. To bad the ruskies didn't leave them original they could have made a fortune, or sold off the spare parts! They really should use the proper bolt! O.K., I am correct in assuming they are a collectible in terms of a non wannabe K98k.
Subvet



johnny_mustang
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
748 Posts
Posted - 11/02/2004 : 07:42:33 AM
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No and Yes, two sides that don't agree. I think the answer is that Yes they are collectible but a different kind of collectible. Would I like to have all matching Mausers in my collection? Sure, do I want to pay 600+ for each one, No.

So I can have one all matching Mauser, or maybe two mis-match Mausers, or four or five RCs for roughly the same amount of money.

I can't bring myself to pony up the bucks for an all matching, so I have the latter two groups.

I think you really have those three groups and prices reflect that and that is the collecting grouping also.

RCs are good in that they are entry level weapons that make you want the higher quality ones.

Think what supply and demand would have done to the Vet bringbacks if the RCs were all matching. Prices would plummet and mis-match Vet bringbacks would be the guy on the bottom of the pile.




Claven2
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



Canada
3468 Posts
Posted - 11/02/2004 : 09:22:33 AM
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To me the people trashing the RC mausers are just trying to protecttheir overpriced investment rifles.

And NO, the Finn analogy is NOT wrong. Finland only started improving their Mosins in the late 20's and onward. Before that, most of their rifles were bone-stock standard Russian rifles put together with whatever parts they coud find and renumber matching (starting to ring a bell?). Additionally, these earlier Finn Mosins are some of the most desired and expansive today! Your comments tell me you know little about Finn Mosins and are only interested in preserving your warped sense of Mauser elitism.

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"Oppressors can tyranize only when they achieve a standing army, an enslaved press, and a disarmed populace" - James Madison



mrfarb
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



1388 Posts
Posted - 11/02/2004 : 11:23:36 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Claven2

To me the people trashing the RC mausers are just trying to protecttheir overpriced investment rifles.

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I have to disagree. I wasn't going to get into the "RC vs. Collector" debate.....again.....but, you guys are too damn sensitive about this. There are so many different points of view, and just becuase someone doesn't think RC Mausers are collectible doesn't mean they are trying to protect thier overpriced mausers.

RC Mausers are a breed apart from Matching 98k's- they are not even in the same class. I have both- all matching minty 98k's and Russian Capture 98k's. I enjoy 98k's- period. I personally don't see the value in the Russian connection- these guns were badly rebuilt- you can't deny the crappy shellac and flaking paint. Does it make them non-collectible? No. Does it make them valuable? No. They are what they are- a great entry into the world of 98k's. If you collect them for thier Russian heritage, good for you.

Like I said, I own several of those "overpriced" matching guns- the Russian Imports do nothing to the value of the matching guns except raise the value. Every RC 98k purchased is an opportunity for someone to get his part of history. Many RC collectors move on to the next step- first, a mismatched gun, then they strive for a matching piece.

Pick the RC 98k from the image below (only 1 is "imported")- I bet you can't.



Download Attachment:
90.11 KB

Let everyone have thier opinion.

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Check out my website- www.latewar.com


arisaka
Gunboards Member



USA
46 Posts
Posted - 11/02/2004 : 3:03:38 PM
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I have to admit, I was a military bob wire collector. I do have a collection of nice guns that are original. But after getting married and having kids, finances have dictated that I slow down on my collecting. So, I still add to my collection with not perfectly correct guns, to me they are still my collection, and yes they are not as desireable as the originals, but I want more and more.


madboy357
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
889 Posts
Posted - 11/02/2004 : 3:30:47 PM
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No one thus far in this thread have trashed RC's, and conversely, all have noted them as being collectable to some degree. So much for us all trying to protect our investments.

Finland was contracting SIG of Switzerland for heavy 91 barrels in 1923, having only been a free autonomous country since 1919. By the late '20's they were well on their way to redesigning the MN system almost completely, using new parts of original design and indigenous manufacture. This information, as well as all aspects of Finnish Mosin Nagants has been available on this forum for several years, and I have followed it for a long while with interest.

Not all original matching Kar's were aquired for a kings ransom. Many have come from pawn shops and the like for well under market value, and the RC's have done little to nothing towards the cost of legit matching examples. That market has gotten out of hand all by itself.

So how have the Russians made better these karbiners? I fail to see how they have done anything more than slap them together, with little regard for the end result. It is debatable if they were even headspaced when assembled, let alone checked for accuracy and reliability.

Pretty funny arguments coming from someone who a few months ago claimed they would never own anything assembled by slave labor under the Nazi regime.

See: 1931 Tikka M27 VS. 1942 BLM/Gustloff Kar98k


Download Attachment:
166.88 KB


Claven2
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



Canada
3468 Posts
Posted - 11/02/2004 : 7:05:47 PM
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Finland was contracting SIG of Switzerland for heavy 91 barrels in 1923, having only been a free autonomous country since 1919. By the late '20's they were well on their way to redesigning the MN system almost completely, using new parts of original design and indigenous manufacture. This information, as well as all aspects of Finnish Mosin Nagants has been available on this forum for several years, and I have followed it for a long while with interest.

Really? Hmmm... how foolish of me to place my faith in Lapin and every other Mosin reference that says foreign (ie, not russian or finnish) parts were NOT used before 1926 on the M24 series of rifles... seems everything before that was M91's cobbled from Russian parts like I said. Strange huh?

Not all original matching Kar's were aquired for a kings ransom. Many have come from pawn shops and the like for well under market value, and the RC's have done little to nothing towards the cost of legit matching examples. That market has gotten out of hand all by itself.

Sure, even 10% would be alot - hundreds of rifles! Still, pawn shop prices of 10 years ago are not going to help a budding enthusiast.

So how have the Russians made better these karbiners? I fail to see how they have done anything more than slap them together, with little regard for the end result. It is debatable if they were even headspaced when assembled, let alone checked for accuracy and reliability.

I don't think you're getting it - a firearm does not have to be improved for a country to place their mark on it. Here's an example... The Germans rearsenalled M91's without improving them at all except for stamping them "Deutches Reich", yet this adds value, it doesn't make such an M91 worthless to the Mosin purist, the same that the Russian touch adds leprosy to a K98 in your eyes...

Pretty funny arguments coming from someone who a few months ago claimed they would never own anything assembled by slave labor under the Nazi regime.

Not really. The K98's I have are ALL Russian Capture (because I collect Russian arms) or Israeli refurbs because I love the irony. My views have not changed at all. I still dislike the awful history of the late-war K98's and if you don't, in my mind, that makes you kind of awful too -> Though I have no problem with people who own late-war K98's, I think a deep understanding of how those rifles were built by slaves who then might have been shot by the rifle they were forced to produce should be taken very seriously and not something to be delighted in, like I very often see on this forum.

And for the record, yes, I do have the Lapin and Richard Law Mosin and K98 references, I have read them, and therefore I consider myself pretty well informed about these weapons.

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"Oppressors can tyranize only when they achieve a standing army, an enslaved press, and a disarmed populace" - James Madison



creepiE
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1768 Posts
Posted - 11/02/2004 : 8:02:56 PM
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yes, i think they are collectables. they are a lot harder to get than beanie babies, and they are not made in china. one day they wont be in the sales fliers, and magazines and the only way to get them will be through private collector's. and mrfarb, i say the import is the 3rd from the left? (do i get a second chance if im wrong?)

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"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not."
~Thomas Jefferson


mowzerluvr
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



1612 Posts
Posted - 11/02/2004 : 8:25:16 PM
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mrfarb. My money for which is the import goes to the one on the far right. I think. At any rate. I think RCs are collectable for what they are. Not worth allot but still collectable. I own total matching, mismatched and RC K98's. I feel its a necessary part of K98 collecting to have at least one RC. But thats me.
mow.


mrfarb
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



1388 Posts
Posted - 11/02/2004 : 9:37:51 PM
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Mowzerluvr got it right- it is the swp45!!!! And I echo your sentiments exactly- to me, that is the most reasonable attitude to have regarding this subject.

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Check out my website- www.latewar.com

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Edited by - mrfarb on 11/02/2004 9:38:50 PM


azdoug
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



585 Posts
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 12:36:45 AM
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I just bought my first K98 last week. Yep, an RC. Is it collectible? I just collected it, didn't I? Do I care if anybody else thinks it's collectible? Not one bit. Collect what you want and damn the torpedoes!!


sandmountainslim
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
367 Posts
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 12:54:33 AM
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RC 98s are collectible in my book, I think they have alot of history behind em and aside from that most are excellent rifles, WW2 history Cold War history I like em mismatched or not.
SMS

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Scott B
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
312 Posts
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 02:11:39 AM
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Most of the positions taken in this discussion illustrate that what is collectible is in the eye of the beholder. The more beholders the more interest. The more interest the more competition. The more competition the more $$. Look at what has happened to the value of RC's.

I am of the old school and have found little redeeming collector value in the RC's. But, I grew up in a time when matching K98ks were very available and RC's from the evil empire were unthinkable.

IMO the real value of RC's is that they are affordable and have generated a basic interest in the K98k. Once the disease takes hold the natural evolution towards the matched K98k seems inevitable. Thus, the RC has done for us older collectors an incredible service. They have created a market, besides ourselves, for our knowledge and our collectibles. Not wanting a viking funeral - I think this is very positive thing.

Scott B




Jimbo USA
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
198 Posts
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 3:50:40 PM
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Absolutely, they are collectable. IMO any weapon that is verified as "captured" is a worthy part of a collection. RCs fit this category without dispute, most all were indeed battle field captured/surrendered/picked-up, and they are easily identified by the "X" swords marking and or refurbishment.
Just wish I could as easily tell the difference in my Japanese rifles, which ones were Tokyo bay pier side GI pick-ups (ho-um) or from a battle field.
I've have one included in my Russian collection. Maybe it’s just me but a factory fresh infantry rifle doesn’t interest me like a well worn one that possibly been there and done that. Parts gun... not the issue to me “captured” is the issue.
Enjoy them for what they are


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Jim
Arizona



Paul Parrish
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
848 Posts
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 8:48:28 PM
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I guess that this discussion will come up,from time to time,for many years.An RC is a ligit collectable,because IT IS a Russian service rifle;you just can't argue with that.It represents a "type" of Russian rifle,that was intended for use,as a second line weapon,if the ballon went up.Nothing to debate here? Is it a K98k...sorry,yes it is.Is it the same as a Finn 91/30 or M39?;no,the Finn weapons were issued,and used extensively in combat.They have,as they exist,MUCH more history than the RC.That fact can't be debated either.I'm not a huge RC fan,as I believe they are over priced,and because they were never issued,in their RC configuration.But they are collectable;they have some interesting history;they are a Soviet weapon,and they are a Mauser varient.That's more than enough.As an aside,I'm starting to hear some crap about CMP M-1's..."are they really collectable".I'm going to let you in on a secret,there are no "original" Garands out there for sale;just Garands that have been reconfigured with the proper draw numbers etc.Get real;what the hell have some of you been smoking.A CMP Garand IS an honest to God Collectable Garand.Don't ever go to a gun show and ask a dealer if he has any "original" M-1's for sale;if he's honest ,he'll laugh at ya.


John Strunk
Gunboards Premium Member



156 Posts
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 11:30:37 PM
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Time will tell if these are collectable. I recall about 100 or so of what I believe were matching k98k all in gun racks on the floor of Harry Surgarman's, Sporting goods store in Eyonn, Pennsylvania being sold, a few days before deer season, for either $29.95 or $39.95 in 1968. The man behind the counter told my dad that the S/N on the bolts and receiver match so you wouldn't have any headspace problems and for another $25. they could have it drill and scope before the first day. My dad, who didn't hunt himself, purchased a Marlin 336, in 35 cal for me and said he was afraid that the old mauser would blow up and kill me in the woods.
(In truth, I don't think my dad had any idea what the guy was talking about when he spoke of headspace, since he was in the air corp and got really spooked by the guy.)

Anyway give them a few years and we will all know if these are collectable.


runner
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
509 Posts
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 9:19:41 PM
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To me the biggest negative on the issue of RC collectibility, is the fact that they were refurbed, but never issued by the Russians. To me this is why they are not comparable to the Finn rifles, which were modified, used and in fact helped save a country. I would have to respectfully disagree with the position that these are a variant Russian Service rifle, not just because they were never issued by that country, but I question that they were ever even intended for that purpose. My "theory" is that they were (1) primarily a make work project for the masses and (2) intended to be used as "aid" to surrogate countrys. The US has a long history of storing quantities of captured weapons and then using them to arm insurgents and legitimate armys ( large numbers of Japanese rifles captured by the US were issued to South Koreans, I don't think that makes them a varient US service rifle) particularily when the goverment wants to be able to claim a "hands off position". I bet that some day some of those AKs captured in Iraq and not given to the revised Iraqi Army will turn up in other parts of the world. Having said all that, I throughly enjoy the RC 98s. I have two, and as a Mauser collector I welcome them as an entry point for the next generation of Mauser collectors.


jth
Gunboards Super Premium Member



505 Posts
Posted - 11/05/2004 : 09:53:11 AM
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About 40 yrs ago or so ,( yes I was collecting then ) Any Mauser that was not all matching
and at least 95% original finish with a perfect bore was considered a junker parts gun .
Thousands of these were made into sporters . I remember a real nice G33-40 that was turned
into one of these simply because the bolt was mismatched. NO !! I didn,t do it.
Even then as now I would never cut up a military rifle . I will now buy ( for the price of
whatever good parts are left) sporterized ones to get parts.
jth


ksstargazer
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
571 Posts
Posted - 11/06/2004 : 08:55:51 AM
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I have only one K98k. It is a Russian capture DOT 44. It may not be collectible but it impresses the grandkids and the neighbors when I tell them of its possible history. Good enough for me!


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Liberals - men who are the friends of every country save their own.


telewinz
Gunboards Premium Member



222 Posts
Posted - 11/13/2005 : 8:00:11 PM
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I think many people miss a valuable point...The RC captures to a large extent are documented as having been in combat. To me that adds character and class to any milsurp weapon. How often do we grab a Garand or "45" and try to imagine the history it "might" have experienced? Yet maybe it never left the shores of this country! I purchased my RC when AIM first came out with it, I even treasure the peened markings, proof that it's a russian capture. It's not about the money or the collector's status, it's like holding your father's WW2 bayonet or issued bible. It was THERE!


mrfarb
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



1388 Posts
Posted - 11/13/2005 : 8:08:52 PM
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Talk about digging up the past- is your computer set to 1986 or something???

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Check out my website- www.latewar.com


MakarovManic
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
101 Posts
Posted - 11/13/2005 : 10:27:12 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Claven2

When you people learn that these ARE NOT NAZI K98's!!!!! They are RUSSIAN MAUSERS that happen to be made of recycled German parts. Compare apples to apples~!

Regardless of quality the Russian Capture K98 is to Nazi K98 and the Finn Mosin is to Russian Mosin. Or how about the RC K98 is to Nazi K98 as the Danish mixmaster M1 is to USGI M1, or how about the RC K98 is the Nazi K98 as the Ishapore Re-arsenalled No.4Mk1 mixmaster is to a matching Longbranch.

Fact is, these ARE collectable as an example of a Russian Captured Mauser. As long as you don't look at it as a Nazi K98, and instead look at it for what it is - a Russian rifle, then you can avoid the snobbery I'm hearing above! Jeez people! Just because it didn't sit in the rafters of a vet's basement for the last 50 years does not mean the rifle has no value at all! I feel like a UCLA frat boy visiting Harvard for chr!stsake! I feel like I'm gonna be sick!

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With all due respect, Sir, I do not consider a RC a "Russian Rifle". There is not a Russian part (to my knowledge on virturally *any* of them). They are *German* war weapons, re-assembled with German parts, labor being provided by the Russians. It *is* a German K98, all parts are of German manufacture, although perhaps not original to that particular gun.

---Dan
MakarovManic


MakarovManic
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
101 Posts
Posted - 11/13/2005 : 10:42:49 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by madboy357

No one thus far in this thread have trashed RC's, and conversely, all have noted them as being collectable to some degree. So much for us all trying to protect our investments.

Finland was contracting SIG of Switzerland for heavy 91 barrels in 1923, having only been a free autonomous country since 1919. By the late '20's they were well on their way to redesigning the MN system almost completely, using new parts of original design and indigenous manufacture. This information, as well as all aspects of Finnish Mosin Nagants has been available on this forum for several years, and I have followed it for a long while with interest.

Not all original matching Kar's were aquired for a kings ransom. Many have come from pawn shops and the like for well under market value, and the RC's have done little to nothing towards the cost of legit matching examples. That market has gotten out of hand all by itself.

So how have the Russians made better these karbiners? I fail to see how they have done anything more than slap them together, with little regard for the end result. It is debatable if they were even headspaced when assembled, let alone checked for accuracy and reliability.

Pretty funny arguments coming from someone who a few months ago claimed they would never own anything assembled by slave labor under the Nazi regime.

See: 1931 Tikka M27 VS. 1942 BLM/Gustloff Kar98k

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Did the Russian rearsenal work equal the original German fanatic attitude toward the K98's...no. But, in their defense, they were hardly "slapped" together. I agree that they were probably not tested for accuracy, but most *were* head spaced, please, give them some credit, for goodness sakes! The rifles were in most cases completely disassembled and head spacing would only have taken a tiny fraction of time. The Russians are not stupid, they knew a the first few K98's that were sold and blew up in the user's faces would end their market *very* quickly. As as to relability, the K98's had *already* proven how incredibly reliable they are in the hands of the Germans!

---Dan
MakarovManic


Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut



2647 Posts
Posted - 11/13/2005 : 11:32:11 PM
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Sure, hell, why not. I used to be resistant, but RCs have certainly provided a wealth on info in the research area. That is significant. Plus, as of late, I've started pondering getting into the postwar Kar.98k variants, such as a VoPo, RC, Czech, Norwegian .30, etc. (I think that's it). RCs have certainly confirmed Portugest contract info. They certainly aren't anywhere near as desirable as a matching original, or mm bolt only original, but the latter are drying up. Back in the day I could cut grass and buy a matching Kar.98k. Not so for the new collector today, assuming they can find something decent that isn't boinkered.

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spydr1
Gunboards Super Premium Member



Turks and Caicos Islnd
330 Posts
Posted - 11/14/2005 : 07:23:47 AM
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I'm primarily a shooter. so my quastion is does a all matching k98 shoot substantialy better than a rc k98? My rc dou44 shoots as well as I can but I've never shot an all matching one. I collect c+r's for the experience of shooting them so I really dont have any high end rifles.

thanks
Dave

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" I might be movin to Montana soon! Gonna be a dental floss tycoon"
Zappa


Clyde from Carolina
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
857 Posts
Posted - 11/14/2005 : 08:20:14 AM
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I think some collectors will always look down their noses at RCs, but they do form a legitimate subvariant for the collector, IMHO. They also provide a way into the hobby for those on a budget. As long as we don't fool ourselves into thinking they are "primo, A#1 K-98s" from the collecting standpoint I see no harm. As Hambone alluded to, they can also be a new vista for the advanced collector, as well as providing data for research. Even among Luger collectors, the advanced collections usually include Vopo reworks, double dates, etc. I think if we limit our collecting to the 85% condition, matching examples, we better have deep pockets and we'd still be missing some of the fun. Besides being good shooters, the RCs are a part of the K98 story. Without getting too long-winded, I think we will always have guys who are not into re-worked, or lesser condition guns. It's a matter of taste and perspective, I believe. Unfortunately, I love them all! I'm also cursed with champagne tastes and a beer budget, but that's another story...

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Clyde from Carolina


kroh
Dennis Kroh-Owner Empire Arms Gunboards Sponsor



USA
1335 Posts
Posted - 11/14/2005 : 11:36:20 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by spydr1

I'm primarily a shooter. so my quastion is does a all matching k98 shoot substantialy better than a rc k98?
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No. . . most all-matching 98k's are seldom (if ever) shot as they are simply too valuable.

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Dennis Kroh, owner

use this link: http://64.82.96.51





telewinz
Gunboards Premium Member



222 Posts
Posted - 11/14/2005 : 8:23:06 PM
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I just had two friends over to look at my milsurp collection. Which one got all the attention? Yep my K98K RC! They viewed it as an asset that it was an RC...just as I do. Would they like to have an RC in their collection "Where can I get one?" Weren't too impressed with my FNFAL or M1A, went right to the RC and they LOVED it's history. Go figure.


mn59
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
155 Posts
Posted - 11/14/2005 : 9:02:51 PM
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My RC k98 has a German receiver, barrel, bolt, etc... So,if it's not a German K98 I don't know what it is. Was it captured, refurbed and stored by the Russians..Yes and to me that means it has more history.
No it's not an all matching K98 but it is a good looking, extremely accurate Mauser and to me it is collectible.


kysunfish
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
244 Posts
Posted - 11/15/2005 : 06:05:19 AM
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I buy RC's to shoot and play with. I see a lot of pictures of all matching rifles on the Forum but I'm still looking for that secret trader board where they are bought and sold. A duck on a june bug is putting it mildly. Time and money are not married IMO. Regards, and I enjoy this board. Sunfish


EricOKC
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
2314 Posts
Posted - 11/15/2005 : 09:18:25 AM
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Good rule of thumb for me has been, "Buy something if you're interested in it, as you can always sell it or upgrade."

An RC K98 in excellent shape isn't going to have the same value as a bring back K98 in much lesser shape.

I'd venture a guess to say that about 100% of the time weapons run out at the wholesale level, then they start increasing in the secondary market.

When the $59.00 Mosin Nagants run out, I personally know that I can no longer go to a gun show and say to myself, "I can buy this cheaper online."
I'll probably wind up adding a few more M/N's to my collection just based upon the fact that they too will one day dry up.

As was mentioned, it will be interesting to see what the value of the RC K98's do with the segment of the market who want "shooter K98's."
For instance, my RC K98 will always hold its value, no matter how much I shoot it, whereas as a collector's piece can diminish in price.
Doesn't just hold true for K98's, of course.
My $500 CMP Garand will fetch more than what paid for it on the open market, even after the throat erosion and muzzle wear increases.

Still, you have a huge number of bringback K98's that are in well used condition that you'll be able to fire off without worrying about decreasing their value.

You can sell or trade up what you have, but you can't sell or trade up what you don't have.

Eric






Cal50
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
202 Posts
Posted - 11/15/2005 : 8:33:43 PM
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Russian service rifle is a funny statement. A rifle built in Germany that travels to another country,taken apart and re assembled in now a Russian rifle? Yea,right. The RC guns are as German as the mint matching guns everyone would like but for way less $$$ and shoot and function the same. I have nothing against nice matching guns but most are safe queens now. I know one collector that has 6 REALLY nice K98's with bayonets and a sniper also. It is a display piece that lives in a museum like environment.He is in his late 60's and purchased them when they were available and REASONABLY priced. There are fewer guns floating around now and cost is much higher. It is a challenge to find a K98 with a nice matching barrel anymore. I have a couple of nice RC 98's.The barrels match the receiver and are clean and shoot great. At a cost of $250~$350 each I can use them and not feel guilty about it. Since no more are being made I think they will hold what little value they have which is $250~$350 .I don't see people selling RC guns for big bucks but I do see the lucky collectors with nice stuff looking down their nose at people who like their RC guns. My rifles were on a battlefield in at least two countries. My friends were in a gun case in two countries.


Spetznatz
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
2869 Posts
Posted - 11/15/2005 : 8:55:38 PM
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I have a RC ( I think )and it looks just like my friends Nazi marked k98 and shoots better to boot. Mine has the yugo marking on the barrel but says mod 98 on the receiver and the stock (k98) is numbered to the gun. Is this an Russian or a Yugo capture?


Download Attachment:
222.63 KB

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Edited by - Spetznatz on 11/15/2005 9:03:16 PM


Galaxieman
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



Kiribati
3177 Posts
Posted - 11/16/2005 : 05:24:37 AM
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In my opinion the RC is almost as collectible as a GI bring back. For obvious reasons in THIS country a bring back hold special meaning thus value.
The snobbish attitude some here use to look down their noses at RC's is just BS. How can you justify some parts of history makes something more valuable. To brush off mix master RCs is to forget the men that carried them, where they carried them to and the circumstances on how the ownership was transferred.
Your all matching K98 could just of set next to the bunk of some REMF! Big deal.
Sure an all matching is collectible no doubt, but only because it still has the same parts (the numbered ones at least) together as when it left the factory. Anything that old and all original is cool, be it a rifle, automobile or toaster.


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Ina Godda Davida

Quid ego solicitus


Galaxieman
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



Kiribati
3177 Posts
Posted - 11/16/2005 : 05:42:09 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by madboy357

Adding heavy barrels(Finnish,Swiss, or German) better stocks with better bedding, better triggers, better sights, etc. All indigenously designed and manufactured. Or sometimes only a shim here, and a SA mark, then back to the field.

The Russians added no such features to these Kar98k's, and likely made them less accurarate and reliable through their meddling. All those parts painstakingly fitted, inspected, and serial numbered, to an end---a highly evolved combat arm. And the Russian's somehow made them better, eh? Yes! That heavy coat of shellac adds long life protection! So there!

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Wow, those crafty Finns, they reinvented the barrel and sights, and designed a completely new trigger system! Adding a couple pins, woooooo.
Yes that does make them unique, just as an RC is, just as an original k98 is. Does it make it better? Hell no. They all have an equal part of history, different but equal.
To degrade an RC by tagging olny "shooter grade"??? Get off it!

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Ina Godda Davida

Quid ego solicitus


Tanker
Gunboards Super Premium Member



306 Posts
Posted - 11/16/2005 : 06:55:05 AM
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Degrading an RC 98k as having no historical value is bull. HOWEVER, if it means some snob will sell it to me for less, I can live with it.

Dave

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Co. A, 1/70th Armor


boltactionsforever
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1719 Posts
Posted - 11/16/2005 : 08:42:09 AM
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Download Attachment:
20.32 KB

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"the only way to fix that poor gun my lad"....

"Is to find the time machine that is set to one day before Vic' got his hands on it"


Drakken61
Gunboards Member



USA
85 Posts
Posted - 11/16/2005 : 1:02:20 PM
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BAF, we had our fun...should we just sit back and watch this one? LOL!


solman
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1615 Posts
Posted - 11/16/2005 : 2:01:02 PM
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What i like about the rc issue is they are temporaraly driving down the low end non import 'parts guns'i have upgraded to non import weapons with little hurt,and my collection is much the better. the rc's are 'pig in the poke' as far as im concerned,
some are cool after 20 hours of TLC, but others man, examples.
Tale of two mausers.
solman is at the show,spies two mausers. one is a non import, 5 digit, dot 44, bore mint, sporter (sorta sniper canadate)sport job was done WELL, with a nice early dual rectical weaver set up, bent bolt,with a 'qnw' stamped floor plate, ect.....
Next to which is a rc sanded,bleached, reblued, 'mitchels mauser' wannabe, with a bore you would need a 4x4 to navigate.
solman,picks up said mitchells wannabe,hhhhhmmmm,thats pretty! and the price of sporter non import parts gun starts coming DOWWWWNNNN.
gotta love those rc's. by the way i got the dot cheep,parted out a gustloff rc and now have a cute sorta sniper without bubbing a nice peice. then sold the frankenstien rc and made money. rc's are cool man.
DD!!!!!! you got to see my non import ce44!!!!!
solman



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MCQueenie
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
843 Posts
Posted - 11/16/2005 : 2:10:26 PM
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Collectible and/or desirable? Depends on your standards for collectibility and desirability. Its the standards "thing" where the differences begin. Collectors in the classic sense prefer to use the standards they have used for decades. Originality and condition being the guide. I don't see it as snobbery. Its just how it is. BTW...I'm not an original K98k collector, so I have nothing to "protect"...which is an absurd idea. If anything, in the long run, the willingness of people to pay several hundred dollars for an RC can only drive up the cost of original condition K98k's. IMHO of course.

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Censorship is the commonest social blasphemy because it is mostly concealed, built into us by indolence, self-interest and cowardice. John Osborne

Joke 'em if they can't take a ....

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Edited by - MCQueenie on 11/16/2005 2:11:54 PM


EricOKC
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
2314 Posts
Posted - 11/16/2005 : 2:49:20 PM
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Yeah, I'm sitting this one out.
It was worth reading just to steal BAF's JPEG.

Eric


Spider
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



Austria
906 Posts
Posted - 11/16/2005 : 5:49:08 PM
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Posts like that have a purpose:

To mak it itch once for a while. So let's post something for each faction of that eternal topic
1) RC's are the lowest thing any one could buy. fumbled together by incompetent soviets. Their only purpose is to be the opposite for every minty or correct 98k.
Their historic value is nil: battlefield leftovers.
2) RC's are the apex of Mauser 98k development: The best parts are put together to form a rifle as superb as few ever. Those rifles have an immense historic value: They are the legit spoils of war from a victorious nation that overcame it's most dangerous enemy
3)Under no circumstances should shellac be removed do it and a superb cold war relic is devalued forever!
4)RC's are a great thing as every collector eith historic ineerest can hava an authentic 98k that is just lying dormant under the shellac and just waits to be freed by denatured alcohol!

So make your chice which of the statement you'd like to read.
Best regards
Spider
(proud owner of three rifles witha Mauser system)

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A life in fear is a life half lived


MCQueenie
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
843 Posts
Posted - 11/16/2005 : 6:02:32 PM
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There are truths and BS in all those statements...there's the rub.

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Censorship is the commonest social blasphemy because it is mostly concealed, built into us by indolence, self-interest and cowardice. John Osborne

Joke 'em if they can't take a ....


Spitzenmeister
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
572 Posts
Posted - 11/16/2005 : 9:19:07 PM
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Anything that makes you happy to own is collectable. At least in the context of a hobby that someone does in their spare time for fun. MCQ really nailed it:
quote:
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Originally posted by MCQueenie

Depends on your standards for collectibility and desirability. Its the standards "thing" where the differences begin.
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"Nations do not mistrust each other because they are armed, they are armed because they mistrust each other." - Ronald Reagan


Sal
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
897 Posts
Posted - 11/19/2005 : 12:11:20 PM
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Soulman / Dracula, most RC's I have seen clean up pretty good and have yet to find a batch in which the majority of the bores were not in very good condition - especially late war. Most of mine are from Empire and Cole's and required minimum clean up 3/4 hours of fun.....but twenty hours, use both hands next time. Some shoot better than others, the best I'm converting to replica snipers.


torp.ss
Gunboards Super Premium Member



313 Posts
Posted - 01/01/2006 : 01:49:58 AM
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Just ran across this room and thought I'd join in. Been reading all the posts and have learned a few things. I'm a k98k Mauser collector and my real area of intrest is Mauser snipers. I have all the WW-2 German sniper rifles but the k98k sweptback mount, which I will never get. I purchased all my snipers in the 70s when you didn't have to sell your first born into slavery for the money, and most are all matching. Am retired now and pick up a k98k now and then. I find this argument about RC rifles rather silly. They are German made and most probably saw service in WW-2. So the Ruskies captured em took em apart and re-assembled em, so what,They are still German made Mausers and have more intrest to me than a DCM M-1 that never shot at anything but a target and have been reworked from their origional issue condition also.I purchased several RCs in the last year and find them quite interesting and they arn't safe queens like my snipers are.I can take them out and shoot them without lowering their value.I think if each RC could talk of what they have done their value would skyrocket.So are they collectors guns, hell yes.


tomb
Gunboards Super Premium Member



305 Posts
Posted - 01/01/2006 : 09:15:13 AM
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Torp,

Well put. The greatest thing about RC's it that they are available! No way would I have ended up with a Portugeuse K98 any other way. I don't really care if it is pinged, lets me know it isn't made up! That's why I like them so much. I would have never been able to have the codes/types of K98's I have now if it weren't for the Russian mindset to save everything for the next big war. The US does not save things on that kind of scale. We've been getting rid and cutting up our own weapons for decades. Anyhow, absolutely I am thankful for bottom of the barrel collector/shooter K98's. RC or not there really are some rare rifles that have found there way into collectors hands. Couple that with some of the production data we're getting from new serial numbers and types of rifles found it just makes the story better!

For what it's worth... Tom


adversereaction28
Gunboards Member



USA
36 Posts
Posted - 01/01/2006 : 2:15:04 PM
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Although RC K98's are'nt real "Nazi" K98's, I think they're a great start for someone who wants to start collecting Mauser rifles. I was a Mauser-virgin until I picked up an RC K98 at a gunshow (I was looking for a 7.7 Jap). I realy did'nt know what I was buying at the time, but when I realised the collectability of all Mausers I was instantly hooked! Now every weekend I've been hitting all the gun stores and pawn shops for Mausers.


torp.ss
Gunboards Super Premium Member



313 Posts
Posted - 01/01/2006 : 3:14:35 PM
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Not REAL "Nazi"?? Made by them, used by them, captured from them. at what point did they become not real? I have quite a few REAL Nazi all matching k98k's and the only differance I can see in the RC,s is they are not matching #s and have a number stamped on the stock and a coat of cold blue.You can take the mauser out of Germany but you cant take the German out of a k98k. This could go on forever so I wont belabor the point but a k98k be it mint and all matching or a RC is still a WW-2 German Mauser, just my opinion.


John Strunk
Gunboards Premium Member



156 Posts
Posted - 01/01/2006 : 3:57:06 PM
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In November 1968 I was going to buy my first DEER rifle at Harry Surgerman's In Northeast Pennsylvania. My Dad didn't hunt but went with me to buy the gun. I clearly recall racks of K98k, matching, with all kind of odd letters & numbers on the receiver's. A few of which had odd drilling for scope mounts. At that time I had no idea that the Letters & Numbers on the receivers were for differnt manufactures & years. The odd drilling may have been for SSR or LSR scopes. All I knew or cared about was they were only $29.95 & the the guy behind the counter said he could have a scope on it before deer season for another 20 to 30 dollars. No one was collecting these at the time & were basically just using then as a cheap deer rifle and all of those racks of k98 were more than likely all sold and drilled. My Dad had the finally word and passed on the 98 and purchased me a marlin 336 in 35 cal for $70.00. He was afraid the K98 was to old and would blow up and kill me. He had been in the Air Corps in WW2 and didn't have any idea about rifles.

The point, in 68 you could buy a matching 98 for 29.95. There is no way to tell if the rc k98 will actually be a collortors item. However, in 30 years we will all have the answer to that question.


Strunk


GewehrmannII
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



1003 Posts
Posted - 01/01/2006 : 10:15:02 PM
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All my guns are collectible, at least to me! So are the matchbooks in the junk drawer, the comics in the basement, and my '78 Chevy pickup. If you own something because you like it, it's a collectible. If you own it because you expect it to increase in value, it's an investment. My RC Mausers can be considered an investment, as well as collectibles, but my old pickup will eventually be worth only scrap iron value.


EricOKC
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
2314 Posts
Posted - 01/02/2006 : 10:08:04 AM
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I paid $220.00 for my RC many months ago, put out "feelers" on an online auction for it awhile back, and it went into the $400.00's.
Didn't reach the minimum I had set, but doubling in value in a few months made me pretty happy.

Eric


hobbit
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
188 Posts
Posted - 01/02/2006 : 3:25:22 PM
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The RC guns are as German as any German gun. To say they are now a Russian gun is plain stupid. Give me a break. Don't get me wrong it would be "nice" to have an all matching numbers, but it plain isn't that important. I don't want a "safe Queen", I want to shoot it and shoot it often. Between my 6 RC's I probably shoot on an average of 250-300 rounds a month and that's month after month. How often do YOU shoot your "all matching" K-98's? The your matching K-98's probably saw duty in a library or hosital position somewhere far from the front lines. My RC K-98's does have history and we know it probably saw combat. Fact is, if I look closley, I can probably still see the teeth marks of the gun stock, as the German went down!
Just my 2 cents.


MCQueenie
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
843 Posts
Posted - 01/02/2006 : 5:56:00 PM
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"The your matching K-98's probably saw duty in a library or hosital position somewhere far from the front lines. My RC K-98's does have history and we know it probably saw combat. Fact is, if I look closley, I can probably still see the teeth marks of the gun stock, as the German went down!"

The RC Mauser is a strange phenomenon. Its no more interesting than any other mis-matched, refinished milsurp. In fact because of those qualities it is less interesting. You see all sorts of twisted logic being thrown out by RC afficianados in an attempt to "glorify" them. The above statement is a classic example. Odds are very great that nearly ALL the original K98k's the Russians "captured", wherever that may have been (do you think they were ALL pried out of the hands of dead Germans?) , were MATCHING examples. Soooo...by your own "logic"???? Give you a break? :ROFLMAO:

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Censorship is the commonest social blasphemy because it is mostly concealed, built into us by indolence, self-interest and cowardice. John Osborne

Joke 'em if they can't take a ....

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Edited by - MCQueenie on 01/02/2006 6:02:19 PM


torp.ss
Gunboards Super Premium Member



313 Posts
Posted - 01/02/2006 : 7:13:58 PM
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The idea that all RC Mausers were matching when captured is probably not so. The all matching k98k's we have were probably not used very long in action. I say this because of a conversation with a next door neighbor of a shooting friend of mine. He was a gunner in a JU-88 near the end of the war and when his plane was blown up on the ground he was moved to the army as a regular ground pounder. In any case he said when there was a break in action everyone would break up into groups of 15 or so and do their washing and clean their rifles.They would strip their rifles down and all the parts would go in a bucket of diesel fuel. After soaking for awhile everyone would grab a part out of the bucket brush it off, oil it and re-assemble their rifle with no attention to numbers they got.I believe this as all the 100% matching k98k's I have are in very nice condition and most of the non-matchers (not RC)have warn bluing and the stocks are dinged and dented.The 1 exception is a Low Turret sniper I have that is well warn and dinged some, could it be the snipers knew the value of a all matching rifle.LOL.So I'm just saying, I like my k98k sniper rifles,my matching k98k's, my mis-matched k98k's,and even my RC k98k's. A mouser is a mouser. I'm open minded and wouldn't knock any mauser collector unless he was making sporters out of em.


Waldensian
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
258 Posts
Posted - 01/02/2006 : 7:29:31 PM
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quote:
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The RC Mauser is a strange phenomenon. Its no more interesting than any other mis-matched, refinished milsurp.
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I disagree. Friends who review my (fairly small) milsurp collection are always most interested in my beat-up and not particularly valuable RC Mauser. It's a CE 42 with a stock that looks like it was used to extract teeth from a tyrannosaurus. Anyway, they love a rifle that has its original evil markings, was probably used in combat, was (apparently) blood stained, was refurbed by the Russkies for use against the invading capitalists, was kept in a cave, and was ultimately sold over the internet.

And their interest is hardly "strange." The rifle's very provocative history is literally stamped all over it. Not so for my 1946 M44 or my Yugo M48, though they are also very cool.

I'll say something else for the RC Mauser: there's no escaping the fact that it was a rock solid design in the first place, and at least a few of those Russkies seem to have taken some real pride in their refurb work. I just love mine. I'm glad to have a real German Mauser without paying through the nose.

True, I'd love to have an all-matching ultra cool K98. But there seem to be so many people faking that stuff that I'd be deathly afraid of being defrauded. I watch the arguments over what's real and what's not with bemusement, as the experts who study the stuff extensively often can't agree. Not a concern with the RCs.

In any event, I'd much much rather have three (four? five? seven?) cool RC Mausers for the same price as one pristine K98!

With all these cool RCs coming in, I'm glad I don't have a lot of money wrapped up in expensive K98s, although I'm sure people will continue to be interested in them too.

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Downtown Ishevsk


MCQueenie
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
843 Posts
Posted - 01/02/2006 : 11:59:58 PM
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Ahhhh...the old dump the parts in a bucket and just grab one to put back on story, yet again.

...original evil markings?... I rest my case.

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Censorship is the commonest social blasphemy because it is mostly concealed, built into us by indolence, self-interest and cowardice. John Osborne

Joke 'em if they can't take a ....

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Edited by - MCQueenie on 01/03/2006 12:00:47 AM


torp.ss
Gunboards Super Premium Member



313 Posts
Posted - 01/03/2006 : 01:23:21 AM
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Sorry I missed the parts in a bucket story before. Ether I'm lying,the German was lying, or it's a communist conspiracy to sap and impurify our precious bodily fluids.


willycrash
Gunboards Super Premium Member



387 Posts
Posted - 01/03/2006 : 05:21:39 AM
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I would be interested in hearing any anecdotes or actual evidence that the RC mausers are put together badly, or have head space issues, or shoot poorly, vs stories of correctly assembled accurate RCs. I'm not denying the possibility that they weren't put together with the loving care that muasers were originally assembled, but I believe armorers for large, potentially aggressive professional armies do have some minimum standards.

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For the laws of nature, as justice, equity, modesty, mercy, and, in
sum, doing to others as we would be done to, of themselves, without the
terror of some power to cause them to be observed, are contrary to our
natural passions, that carry us to partiality, pride, revenge, and the
like. And covenants, without the sword, are but words and of no strength
to secure a man at all. Therefore, notwithstanding the laws of nature
(which every one hath then kept, when he has the will to keep them, when
he can do it safely), if there be no power erected, or not great
enough for our security, every man will and may lawfully rely on his own
strength and art for caution against all other men.-hobbes


tomb
Gunboards Super Premium Member



305 Posts
Posted - 01/03/2006 : 09:06:42 AM
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"it's a communist conspiracy to sap and impurify our precious bodily fluids." LOL

That's why I drink only pure grain alcohol or rainwater. Purity of Essence my man.....

Regards, Tom


J.Stein
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



2970 Posts
Posted - 01/03/2006 : 2:22:34 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by tomb

"it's a communist conspiracy to sap and impurify our precious bodily fluids." LOL

That's why I drink only pure grain alcohol or rainwater. Purity of Essence my man.....

Regards, Tom

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Good man Tom.
Flouridation and pinged swastica's are the two biggest threats facing our nation. McCarthy was right.
I'm a bourbon and branch-water man myself.




MCQueenie
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
843 Posts
Posted - 01/03/2006 : 2:27:44 PM
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Bottom line for me and last word. I find no reason to judge RC Mausers any differently than any other surplus rifle. As I said earlier is all about standards. There are established standards and there are personal standards. I happen to have a great respect for the well established professional standards of collecting. You may change the rules to suit your personal standards. Thats fine. But don't expect the established standards to change to suit you. We should remain cognizant of the differences.

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Censorship is the commonest social blasphemy because it is mostly concealed, built into us by indolence, self-interest and cowardice. John Osborne

Joke 'em if they can't take a ....


kingfish01
Gunboards Premium Member



123 Posts
Posted - 01/03/2006 : 3:41:39 PM
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This is a really funny thread going on! Are the RC collectable. ABSOLUTELY! Their prices are rising dramatically. I bought my first (mostly matching except for the bolt, waff. intact) for $99. Can you find that same deal today? Of course not.
The people who shelled out big bucks to buy K98's before the mass flooding are the ones who got burnt and the value of their collection went down the tubes.
Thats supply and demand, gentlemen. Simple as that.


luulnor
Starting Member



8 Posts
Posted - 01/03/2006 : 10:23:26 PM
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I've just been reading this forum and can hardly believe the things people write/think about r/c k98s. I find it very hard to understand how someone could think a German made gun in the possession of a Russian is a Russian gun. My father and his other unfortunate ones had their German guns taken away when the Russians invaded,then had to kill a Russian to get a gun and more to get more Russian ammunition.Till the Germans drafted them or die. If the Russians had the Germans guns at least when invading enemy territory you could use their ammo instead of carrying your own. I guess the point I'm trying to make is a German made gun is a German gun, and because it was captured and rebuilt for future battles shouldn't make them parts guns. I have one and it shoots very well even if killed more of it's makers people than the people it was intended or not. I try not to imagine what my battleguns have been through. I just like to shoot em.
Just my opinion
Kuulnor


madboy357
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
889 Posts
Posted - 01/03/2006 : 11:59:47 PM
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I think the real test of RC collectability is when RC collectors attempt to trade their RC's for original matched 98k's-----they might have paid serious scratch for those historic Ruskie refurbs, but most collectors I know (me included) wouldn't trade 5 or 6 RC's for a single legit matching example.

Quoting luulnor:
"I try not to imagine what my battleguns have been through."

Why bother collecting historic combat arms at all then? The history that these rifles wear on their sleeve is the whole reason I keep coming back for more......



Download Attachment:
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torp.ss
Gunboards Super Premium Member



313 Posts
Posted - 01/04/2006 : 03:21:14 AM
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I really don't understand the logic in knocking the RC Mausers, they are being bought by guys interested in Mausers but don't want to or can't shell out the big bucks to get a "legit all matching" Mauser. They are interested in Mausers and we all should be happy as this adds more people to preserve a historic weapon.True they arn't in the class with a nice all matching Mauser, but they are Mausers. There are all levels of collectors, as for me I like them all (k98k s)and have some all matching,some mix matched,a few snipers and even bought a RC. To put things in perspective I wouldn't trade 1 of my all matching sniper rifles for 4 or 5 all matching standard k98k s.That don't mean the all matching Mausers arn't valuable it's just a different class. It just might happen that one of the RC buyers may develop a need for a nice all matching Mauser some day and he might buy it from someone in here. I tire of this subject so that's all I'm going to say.


Waldensian
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
258 Posts
Posted - 01/04/2006 : 8:06:57 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by torp.ss

I really don't understand the logic in knocking the RC Mausers, they are being bought by guys interested in Mausers but don't want to or can't shell out the big bucks to get a "legit all matching" Mauser.
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In addition to lacking $$, I also have little interest in "legit all matching" Mausers because of all the fraud in the market. The people putting together "fake" Mausers are hurting collectibility, and thus value, because they have made it more difficult to establish authenticity. I have yet to see anybody faking $220 RCs!

By the way, the "evil markings" comment was tongue in cheek.... Some people are so humor challenged as they watch their collections become devalued by recent imports...

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Downtown Ishevsk


MCQueenie
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
843 Posts
Posted - 01/04/2006 : 8:42:03 PM
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LOL...You may have been joking but its no joke. Why do you think "pinged" RCs are worth about the same as a Yugo refurb? Also as long as people are willing to pay the prices some do for RCs, original condition Mausers are in no danger of being devalued. More twisted logic. Darn! Ya'll went and made me post again. Shame on you.

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Censorship is the commonest social blasphemy because it is mostly concealed, built into us by indolence, self-interest and cowardice. John Osborne

Joke 'em if they can't take a ....


luulnor
Starting Member



8 Posts
Posted - 01/04/2006 : 10:48:56 PM
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I don't really have anything to add to this forum because we're all mauser guys, and are here for that reason. I did say "I try not to imagine what my battleguns have been through" more or less I meant all the gorey details of killing and such. I collect them because I like to see for myself by shooting them,exactly what each county's army had to combat with and make my own decisions as who had the better designed, accurate, durable gun. You can read and listen to everyones own opinion (which I do and respect in every way)because this is how we learn from each other, but to have my own opinion I like to experience handling, shooting and dissasemble/assemble the battleguns I am interested in. This is a great site and forum, glad I found it and all who post/reply. I value all posts
Thanks



Waldensian
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
258 Posts
Posted - 01/04/2006 : 10:55:02 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by MCQueenie

LOL...You may have been joking but its no joke. Why do you think "pinged" RCs are worth about the same as a Yugo refurb? Also as long as people are willing to pay the prices some do for RCs, original condition Mausers are in no danger of being devalued. More twisted logic. Darn! Ya'll went and made me post again. Shame on you.

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Oh, I'm just windin' you up. I think the interest generated by RCs is bound to make the nice ones appreciate more quickly. Now that I have an RC I'd love to have one that didn't look like the stock was used to remove lugnuts.

And I just knew we'd get you to post again.



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Downtown Ishevsk


stoyan79
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



1022 Posts
Posted - 01/08/2006 : 12:53:01 PM
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I cannot afford to spend big bucks for guns, so RCs are perfect for me. I love them and as solman said I think we should all love them because the do good to all collectors right now in different ways.

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*Second Ammendment*
A well regulated militia, being necesary for the protection of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.


MosinNagantCrazy
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
179 Posts
Posted - 01/09/2006 : 1:53:43 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by stoyan79

I cannot afford to spend big bucks for guns, so RCs are perfect for me. I love them and as solman said I think we should all love them because the do good to all collectors right now in different ways.

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Amen. I'm only 22 years old, and a RC is all I can afford. The two K98k's my great uncle brought home are long gone, so I can't go that route. Although, his wife still has the two Lugers he brought home, so who knows, maybe I'll have one of those, or BOTH one of these days.

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1943 Izhevsk 91/30
1944 Izhevsk M44
1948 Enfield No4 Mk 1
1942 SA M1 Garand
Late Type 38 Arisaka


timdps
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
292 Posts
Posted - 12/29/2006 : 6:27:07 PM
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Have 4 RCs and have not fired two of them yet.

First one I got has a safety lever problem. In the fire position it was very loose and would occasionally wedge up in the 10 o'clock position. Pulling the trigger then did nothing until an (accidental) knock loosened the lever and it dropped into the fire position and fired the round in the chamber.

Fortunately I was only firing blanks at a reenactment, but it still was not a safe situation. I have since replaced the safety lever, but now it will not go into the 12:00 and 3:00 positions, so is always in the fire position. Have not had the time ot examine it closely to see what the real problem is ( and have not shot it anywhere).

I don't see this as a large problem ( probably a parts mismatch issue?), but you did ask for examples

tim



quote:
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Originally posted by willycrash

I would be interested in hearing any anecdotes or actual evidence that the RC mausers are put together badly, or have head space issues, or shoot poorly, vs stories of correctly assembled accurate RCs. I'm not denying the possibility that they weren't put together with the loving care that muasers were originally assembled, but I believe armorers for large, potentially aggressive professional armies do have some minimum standards.

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timdps
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
292 Posts
Posted - 12/29/2006 : 7:14:53 PM
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Yet another viewpoint

I do WWII reenacting (German in West Front battles and Russian in East Front battles). We take rifles into the field rain or shine and they get dirty, they get banged around just like they were back then. All of the rifles coming out of Russia have been a godsend to WWII reenactors because they can be taken out in the field without much concern for them "losing their value".


For Russian reenactors all of the cheap availability of many varieties of Mosin Nagant rifles has been wonderful, leading me to buy rifles that, after recieving them, will probably never go out in the field (1925 hex reciever, all matching numbers including bayonet). Rats, now I sound like a collector...

For German reenactors the RCs are even more important. Before the RCs started coming in there was basically a choice between an original rifle, probably with mostly matching parts for $350+ or the Yugo reworks with the huge Yugo crest on the reciever in the $150 -$250 range. With the relatively inexpensive RCs arriving in quantity a German reenactor can have a rifle with full German markings (and with minor work, have it look like a German WWII rifle) and not feel too badly about banging it around in the field. Many reenactors are at least amateur historians, so another bonus is the long history that these rifles carry.

My first rifle was a Yugo and it served me well until I started to pay attention to the RC ads for rifles with full German markings. Bought one, then a second one: "WTF is this weird looking stock with no bayo lug?" Do some research: Cool, it has a partial Kriegs stock! "Maybe if I buy a couple more rifles I can find an earlier stock to put on this rifle and build a late war rifle with the Kriegs stock", so I buy two more.

One of these has a pre-war Weimar eagle and someone's initials on the stock, so now I need to buy one of the early S or number codes for a stock swap.

Hmmm, I think I can see where this is going - right straight down into Mauser madness!

The RCs are lots of fun once you get past the shellac, black paint and blued butt plates!

tim


Vulch
Moderator English Gun Pub



Australia
6297 Posts
Posted - 12/29/2006 : 9:22:46 PM
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My rubberised BS standpoint -

Original, as issued Kar98k's are WONDERFUL, elegant rifles. If someone wants to attach the "evil" history to them or not is THEIR choice, but it is not mine - I collected them because I truly admired them and always had a fascination with German Mausers.

RC Kar98k's are WONDERFUL, elegant rifles. They are just no longer original, but the fact remains they are still German made Mausers! I have ALWAYS been a major enthusiast about the Eastern Front, and all-things-Russian (my wife is Russian, as are ALL the rifles currently in my SEVERLY depleted collection), and would LOVE to own an RC Kar98k, and admire it for what it is, and SHOOT THE DAMNED THING TO DEATH!

I have owned ONE RC Mauser before, though mine was a little different - mine was an RC Standard Modell, all matching except bolt (although it too was a Standard Modell bolt). The X mark on the barrel shank denoted (in most experts opinion) that it was RC, then surplussed to China.

To each his own. Todays mixmaster may well be tomorrow's "All We Have"...

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sn1945
Gunboards Super Premium Member



317 Posts
Posted - 12/29/2006 : 10:19:06 PM
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If I had the option to buy either an RC or an all matching, I would bribe the seller to sell me BOTH at the same time.

I own 3 German K98k rifle so far. Two are RCs and one is all matching except for the bolt, which matches itself.

Guess what? I'm getting more of these K98k rifles!! Matching or non-matching!! In fact, I just got off the phone talking to a salesman at Turner's Outdoor asking about an 11-rifle safe!! I'm now considering a safe since I KNOW my K98k collection will get bigger pretty soon. I love the K98k, RC or not. Actually, now that I think of it, maybe an 11-rifle safe won't be enough.


award
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
660 Posts
Posted - 12/30/2006 : 12:05:25 AM
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ok...here is my "newbie" two cents worth...if anyone really cares.
Two 2007 Harley Davidsons on the dealer floor. You walk in and a salesman encounters. What are you looking for he asks. well i like this one, i have been eyeing it for a while. i think my wife would like it so that she doesn't have ride bitc*. You guys work out a price that you both seem fair. Keep in mind that Harley Davidsons hold pretty good value. History tells us that they go up in value(provable also). He writes up the sales ticket and you find out that it says "REPLICA".....OH GOD I READ REPLICA!!! So you ask...why is this a replica...he says...because we built it in the back ...it is afterall all harley parts.
Moral of the story is this....if you want something that will actually go up in value due to "TITLE", then buy the one that doesn't say "REPLICA". If you want a bike to ride and keep people fooled up to a certain point, then buy the RC. Its up to you and whatever you do...LIVE WITH IT!!!

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Look, I'm a fair guy, but this heat is driving me crazy!

The difference between involvement and commitment is like an eggs-and-ham breakfast: the chicken was involved, the pig was committed."


my-rifle
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
508 Posts
Posted - 12/30/2006 : 12:06:13 AM
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I just bought an RC K98. I am collecting it. I want to collect another in better shape. They are increasing in value as they sell out. They are getting harder to find, and as people find out about their availability they want them. The price increases. The supply decreases. I think that defines collectability.

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* This is MY Rifle *


award
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
660 Posts
Posted - 12/30/2006 : 12:18:36 AM
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ok, value? what is worth more...a mint, reblued, bent bolt and drilled receiver of a matching G24t or an RC?

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Look, I'm a fair guy, but this heat is driving me crazy!

The difference between involvement and commitment is like an eggs-and-ham breakfast: the chicken was involved, the pig was committed."


kriggevaer
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1709 Posts
Posted - 12/30/2006 : 12:55:36 AM
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Well, you are really comparing two things that exist in different realms. The G24t isn't mint if it has been reblued, drilled & tapped, and had the bolt bent. In its original military form it would be a highly desirable rifle to collectors of WW II period Mausers. In its present form, matching or not, the collector value has been destroyed and it is worth whatever it will bring as a potential sporter, which I would suggest wouldn't be much over $150.00. Sporterized Mauser 98 barreled actions are a "dime a dozen" so to speak. An RC K98k is still in military configuration, even though it may be mismatched and messed with by the Soviets, it still carries a lot more history. It is an artifact of an enormous struggle between two powers. In that regard, it holds a lot more "value" to collectors than a sportered Mauser.

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kriggevær

"Roland was a warrior from the Land of the Midnight Sun..."



award
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
660 Posts
Posted - 12/30/2006 : 01:11:47 AM
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So the RC K98 is more than a dime a dozen and they both are messed with. I'll tell you one thing though, I would rather have a 1970 covette that was bubba'd rather than 1970 malibu. which one would be more desirable for a collector? I recently talked to a collector and i told him about the bubba'd G24, he told me in 30 years of the business, he has never never never had one come through his shop. I wonder how many RC will come through his shop in the future. I have no qualms with RC at all, by the way. It is just personal interest.
Interesting to say the least.

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Look, I'm a fair guy, but this heat is driving me crazy!

The difference between involvement and commitment is like an eggs-and-ham breakfast: the chicken was involved, the pig was committed."


F16CC
Gunboards Premium Member



129 Posts
Posted - 12/30/2006 : 01:31:40 AM
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by award

ok, value? what is worth more...a mint, reblued, bent bolt and drilled receiver of a matching G24t or an RC?

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This is a losing argument. Value has never, ever defined collectability. To "advanced/elitist/snobby" (whatever you wish to call them), collectors who hate RCs, the value lies in serial#s matching. Ok great. But your now only thinking in terms of value. To them, something has to have a monetary value to be a collectable worth their time. If all someone really cared about was the rifle itself and not some "percieved value", matching numbers dont mean squat. Coz little stamped numbers do NOT change the fact that it is still a K98. Nobody will/has ever argued that a numbers matching gun is worth more than a RC. But thats not what were talking about. Were talking about collectability.

IMO guys who will only collect numbers matching guns collect for diffrent reasons than most. Like a another member posted earlier, if you collect guns for value, your collecting as an investment. You want the money and time you spent in to collecting, to mean something, and perhaps payoff in the end. Thats fine, nothing wrong with that. But, again, it does not define whether something is worthy of collecting.

The bike analogy doesnt work either. Coz last I checked, Harley doesnt serial number each and every part to each bike. If they made a 2007 Harley using Harley made parts, it doesnt change the fact that its still a 2007 Harley.







award
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
660 Posts
Posted - 12/30/2006 : 01:41:58 AM
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Ah, but the harley anaolgy does work son, one thing that you DON'T know is that the replica harleys DON'T use harley frames. And THAT IS THE ONLY REASON IT SAYS REPLICA on the title. So it DOES matter for value.

Furthermore, I did not put "value" on any of my comments regarding the G24 vs. Rc. I said what is "more desirable for a collector".
If it were me, I would have more desire to have something that is fewer and far between than something that you eaisly find. I just don't see a whole lot of G24 rifles popping up on internet websites and newspaper ads anytime soon or EVER for that matter. I hope that you understand my positioning better now.

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Look, I'm a fair guy, but this heat is driving me crazy!

The difference between involvement and commitment is like an eggs-and-ham breakfast: the chicken was involved, the pig was committed."


kriggevaer
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1709 Posts
Posted - 12/30/2006 : 01:48:37 AM
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Well, cars aren't the subject we are concerned with, so that really isn't relevant. With historic military rifles the further a piece gets from its original configuration and attributes, the less value it has. Values are set by the collector community and the market that exists for a particular item. In the K98k rifle collecting community, originality is the benchmark for desirability and value. Modifications made to an original piece/item reduce the value accordingly. The more mods, the less originality, the less value. I won't go into all the ways that can happen. What is rare in this situation is a complete G24t rifle in original matching military configuration. A barreled action that has been heavily modified and missing its original military stock is light years away from the original condition. As such, it really isn't collectible in the K98k community, and therefore has little collector value.

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kriggevær

"Roland was a warrior from the Land of the Midnight Sun..."



F16CC
Gunboards Premium Member



129 Posts
Posted - 12/30/2006 : 02:00:44 AM
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Sorry but you did start your post with..."Ok,value?"

Ha, your Harley anaolgy still doesnt work. While I did not realize you meant replica as in made with "aftermarket, non Harley made" parts. Therein lies the problem. A RC doesnt have any replica parts, thus it is still a German made K98!!!

Please dont take my comments personally they're not meant as a swipe towards you in any way shape or form. I do understand your postion totally and Im not inclined to disagree with you on the desirability of a G24 vs a RC. But, with the G24 rifle your comparing apples and oranges. This topic was strictly asking whether or not RCs themselves have any collectability. Not, compared with X rifle, which is a better buy, which is rarer/or more desirable.




award
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
660 Posts
Posted - 12/30/2006 : 02:10:25 AM
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So if the ivans varnish a vintage stock, change bolts, blue the butt plates and grind nazi markings off of a genuine untouched rifle before it is reserial numbered is more desirable to you - with you knowing that they are a dime a dozen and way over priced. Well, if that is more desirable to you than so be it.
The G24 will not be available like these Rc's are. Think what you want. You are only a crew chief. LOL
By the way, the bike issue you lost on and the car issue, and you know it.
Any G24 is rare enough the way it is, an untouched G24 is more desirable than a bubba'd one.
But the bubba'd G24 is still more rare than a matching K98...and the K98 untouched and mismatched is still more rare than ivans.

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Look, I'm a fair guy, but this heat is driving me crazy!

The difference between involvement and commitment is like an eggs-and-ham breakfast: the chicken was involved, the pig was committed."


F16CC
Gunboards Premium Member



129 Posts
Posted - 12/30/2006 : 02:28:08 AM
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Hey!!! How'd you know I was "Crew Dawg". No one ever gets that.


uboat534
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
125 Posts
Posted - 12/30/2006 : 04:33:43 AM
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Well I only own one matching K-98 my BCD 42(I got it by dumb luck) I own a RC 39 Sauer and a restored CE 44 non RC. While I appreciate my matching Gustolf I can shoot my two Sauers not feel bad and have a feel for history as well. Im a latecomer(Carter was President when I was born) I wasnt around for the matching K-98's, G-43's Lugers etc at giveaway prices. But having given my own opinion to a seemingly endless debate lets all just agree to disagree. Thats what makes us Americans we can voice our opinions. Chris

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Shit happens when you party naked!


John C. Garand
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
163 Posts
Posted - 12/30/2006 : 10:06:17 AM
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Some great comments. Show's we are all very passionate about collecting/shooting/playing with, K98's, but we might as well debate the best parts of a woman..It's all good!

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PAGE 3...................................................................................................................


award
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
660 Posts
Posted - 12/30/2006 : 10:30:09 AM
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F16CC...I was also in the Air Force. Got out in 1991. I was an aircraft electrician and KC-135-A tankers. Thing is, I still remember the nose wheel steering circuit from Technical school.

Anyway, have fun buying what you like and enjoy. For me, I had to have just one mauser and by dumb luck also, it happened to match even though the stock was butchered.

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Look, I'm a fair guy, but this heat is driving me crazy!

The difference between involvement and commitment is like an eggs-and-ham breakfast: the chicken was involved, the pig was committed."


Darkside
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
275 Posts
Posted - 12/30/2006 : 11:27:03 AM
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Yea but these RC are weapons of the Master Race who intended to take over the world but ran into the Ivan killing machine, and we know the rest - a real booty kicking. So these RC have been in the hands of two of the worlds most famous wacko regimes. That makes them collectable?


AK_CZ
Gunboards Premium Member



113 Posts
Posted - 12/30/2006 : 9:22:01 PM
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Numbers matching guns will always be worth more, but having said that, saying a RC K98 is a "Russian Mauser" is just silly.

If that were the case then when I was at Wright Patterson AFB I was actually looking at an "American ME 262" jet fighter and an "American V2 rocket" that were put together from parts from captured bases.... American and not Nazi?...give me a break.

Go here http://www.jagdtiger.de/index2.htm
Click on German vehicles, PZ Maus. The Tank Museum of the Red Army in Kubinka (Russia) has a the only Maus tank left in existance. The Russians put it together from 2 wrecked prototypes and parts from 6 others. So using this same logic, this is a Russian tank then being that the Rusky's put it together out of captured German parts then right?...lol.


my-rifle
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
508 Posts
Posted - 12/31/2006 : 01:54:04 AM
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After starting a few posts that on retrospect seem a bit harsh, I wrote this one:

We all collect for different reasons. What is mostly being discussed in this forum is the "traditional" collector - he wants the rare items. I am not one of them. I am a collector who collects rifles for two reasons. I love shooting accurate guns that allow me to seriously test my skills, and I love holding pieces of history in my hands. The fact that my K98 was captured by the Russians and had its bolt replaced doesn't really matter. It was made in 1944, and (Please don't disillusion me here.) I feel that it was held by men striving against each other in one of the most terrible conflagrations the world has known. The rarity of the rifle isn't so important. Understand that your idea of "collectibility" may not be the only one.

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* This is MY Rifle *


sn1945
Gunboards Super Premium Member



317 Posts
Posted - 12/31/2006 : 02:13:57 AM
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I hear you My Rifle. I look at it the same way.


dogngun
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
392 Posts
Posted - 12/31/2006 : 09:25:28 AM
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The only "all matching" k98 I have EVER owned was a Bubba'd JP Sauer 1939 with an almost immaculate bore and the clearest markings I have ever seen. It also had the(matching) bolt handle bent, had been drilled and tapped, and re-stocked with a walnut all-American sporter stock. FWIW, it really shot very well.
If the RC's are so inferior, what about the Israeli rifles reworked from German 98's bought after the war?

Mark

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"All knowledge, the totality of all questions and answers, is contained in the dog". Franz Kafka


sniperfreak
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
205 Posts
Posted - 12/31/2006 : 10:18:41 AM
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For the arguement, just because the rifles the Russians captured were put back together with no regard to matching numbers shouldn't make them any less collectable.As an aside, how many of those all-matching U.S. vet bringbacks were turned into hunting rifles? I think "sporterizing" is worse than mismatching parts, but that's just my opinion.


Sarge39
Gunboards Super Premium Member



433 Posts
Posted - 12/31/2006 : 1:11:04 PM
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IMHO these rifles are a great way for the begining collector to be introduced to the 98k without fear of being ripped off. And I still think they have a place for medium, and advanced collectors as well...you just don"t feel bad about taking one to the range, and putting 100rds through it. Mine is a good shooter, and looks so much better with the black paint, and shellack removed.
I doubt they will ever reach the status of the all matching ones, but in time, they will have a following or nitch of their own.
Remember when you could buy P-38s for under $500? Try and find one now. In a few years, they will be as much as some Lugers were a few years ago.


Garand1957
Gunboards Super Premium Member



297 Posts
Posted - 12/31/2006 : 5:03:46 PM
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quote:
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So these RC have been in the hands of two of the worlds most famous wacko regimes. That makes them collectable?
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In a word YES You have to be kidding me ...there are people who consider salt & pepper shakers collectable. The undeniable increase in the selling price of these rifles over say the last 5 years should answer your question. I remember people saying 5 years ago that "they would wait for the novelty to wear off and the price to come down before the buy" keep waiting fellas I am sure the price will come down


Freebore
Gunboards Member



USA
50 Posts
Posted - 12/31/2006 : 5:18:07 PM
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Sure the RC Mausers are collectable, and make a more practical using rifle. I think the question to ask would be are original K98 war trophy rifles more collectable than post war re-furbs? I like them all, even if they are not matching numbered original condition rifles, but would consider the non reconditioned trophy rifles to be the most collectable. I would like to add that I was a KC-135 A/E/D Crew Chief from 1979-1999. I am now a Dock Chief. Best regards to the Crew Chiefs out there!

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"Sic Semper Tyrannis"

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Edited by - Freebore on 12/31/2006 9:34:43 PM


trackcar
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
271 Posts
Posted - 01/01/2007 : 11:44:53 AM
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I own no K98 or RC Mausers. Someday maybe I will, at this time it is a matter of money and local availability. Anyway, awhile back it was brought out that the Finnish reworked Mosins were made more "collectible" than the RC counterparts because the reworked and reengineered Mosins were different than the originals. The RC's are only cobbled together. What about the captured M-38 Mosins that have the SA stamp on them? I don't recall that they were drastically reengineered and in some cases "cobbled" together and yet THEY are highly collectable, are they not?


Betonfahrer
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
463 Posts
Posted - 01/01/2007 : 12:48:39 PM
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Man what a topic,I think one of the best things that the RC-98k's offer is a chance for people to get a piece of WW2 history,start shooting,and getting started in collecting.I think all the import stuff keeps the hobby going,And with all the info-here-Mosinnagant.net and 762X54r.net-and all the other sites-there is more info available to collectors old and new.More info than when I started,and may keep prople flowing into Gun collecting and shooting.I have both RC and Bringback/early 60's surplus Mausers and appreciate both kinds.I figure there is a finite amount off all this stuff from the 1914-1945 era and it will eventually come to an end.Get what ever you can while you can and it is available.

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While much is too strange be belived, nothing is to strange to have happened-Thomas Hardy


AK_CZ
Gunboards Premium Member



113 Posts
Posted - 01/01/2007 : 1:56:12 PM
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It should be noted too that the RC's are also great for the just guys beginning to collect K98's. For about $200 you can get a peice of history. Buy a few of them, learn about them (they will go up in value). Then maybe later, pony up and buy a #'s matching original.

I'd rather see a beginner buy an RC for $200, then get ripped off on an expensive fake.

To me it's a lot like the classic car hobby. Wasn't long ago that only #'s matching cars were worth anything...anything else was just a "parts car". Anyone into muscle cars knows how that's changed over the past 20 years. Sure the originals with matching #'s are still worth more than non matching, but look at what the "parts cars" are now going for.

Just like the cars I mentioned, like anything else it will boil down to supply and demand. Only so many classic cars survived and only so many Nazi K98's survived. When the supply dwindles and there is still a demand, prices will go up across the board.


solman
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1615 Posts
Posted - 01/01/2007 : 2:45:12 PM
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ak, the issue is HOW MANY LEFT? they made 15 million? of em. i hear so much rumors. I think its a good thing because shooting out a rc bore isnt a big deal. im sure many old vet bring backs have been saved with the rc's. for myself, ill get a matching, when one comes my way. but shoot? every once and a while.
but with my experence the last couple of years shooting corrosive, man. you got to almost overclean it to be sure. i dont want to be taking apart a matching each weekend. sooner or later youll mar a screw or
dent a pin. rc's you can shoot to your hearts content. miss a spot on the bolt face and get a 'ring'???
oh shit. oh well. its all mixmaster anyway. thats the real value. IMHO

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Trompe la mort


AK_CZ
Gunboards Premium Member



113 Posts
Posted - 01/01/2007 : 7:28:43 PM
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Solman, good question...how many are left of those 15 million? Remember the Brits and Americans burned or dumped most of their captured K98's in the ocean from what I've been told. Other than a few thousand American bring-backs and those that fell into the Commie's hands which later then exported many of them to support revolutions...how many Nazi marked ones are left?

Question is, when they are sold out will there still be a a market for second tier (affordable) Nazi K98's? RC's especially, with their history of fierce Eastern front battle action and being captured by the communists...Time will tell.







royke
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1169 Posts
Posted - 01/01/2007 : 11:59:45 PM
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Another amusing thought; if someone wanted a K98 that could have been at Stalingrad wouldn't it have to be RC?

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Royke


my-rifle
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
508 Posts
Posted - 01/02/2007 : 12:07:57 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by AK_CZ

Solman, good question...how many are left of those 15 million? Remember the Brits and Americans burned or dumped most of their captured K98's in the ocean from what I've been told. Other than a few thousand American bring-backs and those that fell into the Commie's hands which later then exported many of them to support revolutions...how many Nazi marked ones are left?

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Whew! Now that sounds like a crime.

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* This is MY Rifle *

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Edited by - my-rifle on 01/02/2007 12:08:23 AM


TANGERO
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
144 Posts
Posted - 01/02/2007 : 12:30:42 AM
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About a year ago, my 20 year old son called me on the phone and suggested the two of us get one example of the major WWII bolt action rifles. The first one we got is a Maltby #4 Mk1 Enfield, then an Mosin Nagant M44, then 4 NM 91/30s, -MN M38, Arisaka 38, 1917 US Enfield, US 1903 A3 and although not a bolt action, M1 on order from the CMP. Altogether, we have not spent what one collector grade unit would cost.
The other day, on a whim, I went into a local sporting goods store, there on the wall, a 43 RC K98. Great bore, lots of missmatched parts, electropenciled, pinged eagles, shellac removed by last owner, etc--$200.00. I bought it on sight. Got it home. cleaned it, took it out shooting with surplus ammo, extremely accurate at 60 yards, a very nice shooting rifle.
The long and the short of it is that these RC rifles allow the two of us to get a great collectable rifle for not a lot of money and more or less complete our collection (aren't counting French and Italian rifles-maybe later). We feel the RC rifle brings a great history with it and it is indeed a German rifle, with an added historical twist that makes it even more atractive.
A perfectly matched K98 would be nice to have, but I think for our purposes I like the RC better.
I know of at least two bringback K98s that were "sporterized" by their owners. I wonder, if one was to find a replacement stocks and return them to original condition, would they be prized as matching originals, or considered "American" Mausers by the same people who think the RC's are Russians?
In my opinion, they are all veterans, and all to be treated with the respect they deserve. JIM

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The taller the skill level, the more the ceiling rises...


sn1945
Gunboards Super Premium Member



317 Posts
Posted - 01/02/2007 : 01:01:50 AM
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Yeah Jim good point.


AK_CZ
Gunboards Premium Member



113 Posts
Posted - 01/02/2007 : 12:47:14 PM
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Royke,
The only way I can see someone here in the US is going to have a K98 that fought on the Eastern front would be to buy an RC. Short of a one of the few that may have been hidden behind the iron curtain by partisans or something that is…and those would be few and far between. I don't think it's possible that too many, if any Russian troops were allowed "bring-backs" under Stalin's regime with its absolute gun control.

Course there's no way of proving when or where an RC was taken, but it would have had to been taken in Russian held Germany, Eastern Europe or Russia itself.

The Germans fought the Russians with fanatical resistance on the Eastern front in the most extreme conditions, which is why I like these RC’s so much. Not many German POW’s taken by the Russians survived the war. What was the number of Nazi’s captured at Stalingrad alone…like 110,000? And of those only like 5000 ever returned home. So to me, it’s pretty safe to assume that the German that carried an RC K98 most probably never saw Germany again.

An example of what I’m talking about is one of the RC’s I have has shrapnel stuck in it’s stock. Sure, I know that stock came from another K98, but I imagine the German holding that stock had to have been cut up (or worse) from whatever caused the blast. Isn’t it cool to know the gun you have probably took part in some of the fiercest fighting on the toughest front of the greatest war mankind has ever seen? Number’s matching or not it’s history and that’s what it’s all about IMHO.



Turbo Archie
Gunboards Premium Member



244 Posts
Posted - 01/02/2007 : 5:07:56 PM
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With out reading every post, I think it's safe to say that everyone missed the question at hand. The question wasn't if "YOU" like RC's, but if there were collectable varents in the mix. Kinda like rare RC's.

For example, at the show last month, a vender had 20-30 RC's. I've never seen that many at once and it was fun going through all the variations.

One that stood out was a single rune bnz4 with a sniper stock to boot. This would make for an interesting version of a RC if you started "collecting" them as it would be all matching.

I picked up my second RC only due to the parts on the gun. It's a dou45 with a "L" stock. This one was odd in that it has no pencil marks anywhere and has all the orig. german numbers including the bolt. I've decided to keep it together just in case people start collecting odd RC's.






Mike
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
617 Posts
Posted - 01/02/2007 : 7:34:53 PM
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I think RCs are great for shooting and playing army.
How would one sort them out as to the collectable criteria?
Number of intact stamps? Color of shellac? Painted or not painted? etc, ad nauseum.
In reference to bucket bolt cleaning. In 1967 I was in airborne infantry school at Ft Gordon and we did just that. M14s, 16s, .45s, M60s, .50 cals, whatever. Split 55 gal drums of solvent.
I have read that in other countries where numbers were on parts that troops were encouraged to keep track of their parts.
I think most parts mixing was done post war. There was a big run of "boltless mausers" in the 60s.
The folks who want to ignore matching parts as an issue are to young or too new at the game to appreciate them. Look into Colt single actions or other antiques and see where matching nos. sets a premium.
If rationalising the situation makes you feel better fine. Try reselling these and they don't move so fast.
Either way enjoy your stuff.

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Mike


BP_redbear
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
171 Posts
Posted - 01/02/2007 : 10:30:00 PM
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quote:
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Having read on this forum about RC's being cleaned up/restored and referred to as Bubba job's. Are we to consider these as a seperate field of Mauser collecting? Subvet
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Isn't the original poster (Subvet) asking about RC K98k rifles which have been further 'cleaned up/restored' by a collector, by asking about bubba'ed rifles? I believe he was asking if 'Bubba'ed' K98k rifles are in a different class of collectibles as other K98k rifles, whether RC or non-RC.

RC's 'as imported' are not considered 'Bubba'ed'. Am I correct?
BP
quote:
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Do you specialize in RC's, or collect them in general?
Subvet
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Having only collected one K98k, which is a RC, I guess, so far at least, I specialize in RC K98k rifles.
BP


Freebore
Gunboards Member



USA
50 Posts
Posted - 01/02/2007 : 11:16:54 PM
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I don't believe that there are standards of collectability set for Russian capture 98K rifles yet. I like the one that I have, and could state that it it a "RARE" SemiKreigs 1940 Erma, just because it has no barrel band retaining springs, and no bayo lug. It does have a forced matched stock with a bolt takedownm disc. They are, what they are, and it's good for the current price/value.

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"Sic Semper Tyrannis"


sn1945
Gunboards Super Premium Member



317 Posts
Posted - 01/03/2007 : 12:24:07 AM
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But I think we have to give the Russkies some props though. I mean if they hadn't reblued and did the mix and match stuff and shellacing, we probably won't have any K98 rifles to hold and own today.

I mean I doubt that the RC K98s we have today would be in their various good-excellent conditions if they had just been left in storage just right after WWII. The steel would've most likely rusted to an unimaginable condition, and the stocks soaked with moisture and fungus.

So I guess we have to do a trade off. MM with shellac? Or a rusted unservicable K98?

I'm not really sure though about my thinking. To me it just makes sense though.


3rdarmyfan
Gunboards Premium Member



140 Posts
Posted - 01/03/2007 : 7:23:31 PM
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OK, guys, the rcs are collectable and all german./MOST part. they arent matching, but, they are imho, a great piece of history.


ChuckConners
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
547 Posts
Posted - 01/03/2007 : 7:28:52 PM
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I wish I would have collected a few when they were $100 from AIM a few years ago.

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my-rifle
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
508 Posts
Posted - 01/03/2007 : 9:22:11 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Mike
...
The folks who want to ignore matching parts as an issue are to young or too new at the game to appreciate them. Look into Colt single actions or other antiques and see where matching nos. sets a premium.
If rationalising the situation makes you feel better fine. Try reselling these and they don't move so fast.
Either way enjoy your stuff.

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Again I think you're missing the point I tried to make earlier. Collecting something doesn't necessarily mean holding them for monetary profit. It could mean keeping them to hold and feel the past that these things saw. What they saw we cannot, so they do it for us, and thought them we can live a part of our history - the history of man.

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* This is MY Rifle *


hutch1510
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
503 Posts
Posted - 01/04/2007 : 12:18:40 PM
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ofcoarse they are collectible......... some can be quite stunning...somebody said what about russian 91/30's etc.etc... well they are not a mauser k98 now are they? the fact that these are GERMAN mausers...even if totally disassembled and rebuilt they are still true german mausers....... as for the all matching only crow'd well that's fine... but those days are pretty much gone... theres not just shooter class and collector class anymore...theres a whole new middle ground... and as well everything else no matter how many were built,,,they will dry out... lots will get sporterized, and they will become more and more rare in original R/C condition....that my friend is 100% pure fact....

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Edited by - hutch1510 on 01/04/2007 12:19:42 PM
 

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Hi all new to gunboard I have enjoyed reading this topic. I own a couple of RC I have always thought of them as collectible but just not as nice as one with all matching numbers, of coarse there is a lot that have been faked some so well that you really cant be sure or not. The only ones I dont care for are the Mitchell Mauser in my opinion they were mint to deseive . The last post on this thread was in 2007 I was wondering if any of your opinions have changed sents then ?
 

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These are captured German 98K. Lost to Russians on Eastern front.

They are unique in this regard, they have been refurbished by the enemy (Russians) and
they are not original but they are historic 98K and in their own right, are collectable.

They are WWII German 98K, they have provenance and as the 98K Mauser Purists die out , the
RC captures will begin to be very much part of any 98K collection .

The 98K purists have a ton of money in their "original" 98k, they'll never accept a RC capture as anything else but a mis matched surplus 98K. They have a right to choice but they don't have a right to define facts and history.

Frankly, generations today don't care about much other than black riffles and Glocks. Value systems have changed. Collections of 98K Mausers and Lugers are for the older guys of older generations. Interest in these weapons is minute by the rest of gun market these days.
 

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My only 98k is an RC byf 44 that had been sanded/refinished, had a peep sight on the receiver bridge, and a Timney trigger installed by the previous owner. At only $225 (this was after prices climbed) with an excellent bore I snagged it, took the peep sight off, and installed a spare military trigger/spring. Took it to the range, sure enough it's a tack driver. It is my mix-master abomination of a shooter and I love it. The Eastern Fronts of both World Wars are my favorite military conflicts to study. When I look at an RC, I'm assured that it was at least sent to that theater. They fill the shooter void spectacularly because I won't feel as bad if a part on one breaks, and the bores are often in great shape too.

Too many people tie "collectible" status to monetary value alone. It also means "in historically accurate condition." How many RC's laying around today still have their red shellac and purple extractors intact? I know many guys who stripped the shellac and reblued or replaced their extractors because "they're just cheap rifles." The affordable milsurp market took a huge hit in the past five years, the online vendors ran out of RC's, and prices rose accordingly. In due time we will see a budding price difference between "original" and modified RC's. It will only be slight, but it will still be there and grow over time. Once the 100th anniversary of WWII passes, we can kiss affordable German anything goodbye.
 
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