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RepublicanMan
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
214 Posts
Posted - 03/21/2004 : 6:54:53 PM
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What is the reason for not being able to use commercial .308 in the Cetme rifle?
I looked (admittedly not long or hard however) on Perros board and couldn't find anything direct and to the point about it.
Thanks.

tog
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1209 Posts
Posted - 03/21/2004 : 7:17:53 PM
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RepublicanMan, I think one of the reasons is because 308 brass is softer than the 7.62 as used by the military. If you look at the brass, you can see where the 7.62 has been annealed around the case neck to make it stronger. I dont think the commercial 308 uses this process. Just my 2/100 worth. tog


Donj
CETME/FR8 - Egyptian Arms Board Admin



1609 Posts
Posted - 03/21/2004 : 7:18:24 PM
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Military cases are thicker and the primers are harder...... There has been some problem with case seperation on comercial brass, although not everyone has had the problem. I quess that the soft primers would be my main concern........ As in slam fires!

Donj

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The bursting radius of a hand grenade is always one foot greater than the distance you can jump.





Otokodate
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
850 Posts
Posted - 03/21/2004 : 8:42:38 PM
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The CETME does not fully support the ammo case. It has flutes in the chamber and is designed this way to aid extracting the empty case. Because commercial .308 is thinner and generates higher pressures, it can flow into flutes and jam in place.

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Norman, COG #857, COA #10477.
They'll let anybody join.


shari71
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
2172 Posts
Posted - 03/21/2004 : 8:59:17 PM
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It's funny, you know, my CETME is marked .308, not 7.62x51.
http://www.wildbillcody.com/articles.htm#

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COA 1043
FOG #68

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AKA WildBillCody
www.wildbillcody.com



perro del diablo
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1548 Posts
Posted - 03/21/2004 : 10:35:41 PM
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BOARD NOTICE: You can do many things with just about any weapon but that does not make it safe or correct.
One should always follow the instructions for the firearm they own and if they are unfamiliar with the firearm they should take it to a competent Gunsmith and have it checked for safety and instruction in proper us of the firearm.

you can shoot commercial 308 winchester ammo in a cetme
you can also shoot commercial 308 winchester out of a mosin nagant
and you can shoot commercial 308 winchester in a 8mm mauser


(ask me how i know about the last 2)

but, when the case fails after the first shot and you are stuck at the range with a destroyed case stuck in your barrel, and nothing to shoot, you will wonder why you even bothered with the EXPENSIVE commercial ammo when the rifle was designed for the military for NATO ammo and DESTROYS brass

as mentioned, military cases are thicker, they are stronger, they are meant to work and reliably extract in the most difficult times of combat. The last thing you want in combat is for your rifle to rip the case head off the brass and leave you with a semi automatic CLUB. cetmes dont have tight chambers for match grade ammo, its an old machine gun, not a hunting rifle, its meant to reliably feed ammo at a high rate of fire, and commercial winchester 308 is made for hunting rifles that are usually bolt action, and who really cares if you have a case head seperation in your hunting rifle, your life isnt at stake.

you *can* use commercial ammo in your cetme, but why?? its expensive, its not as accurate as reloading, and you stand a great chance that it will come apart in your gun. look at the pictures on my webpage of the case that seperated in my cetme.

you want accuracy, reload into military brass
you want specialty bullets for whatever, reload into military brass
etc etc etc



Mike




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Edited by - Dr Zero on 04/30/2005 09:23:21 AM


mobay151
Gunboards Member



USA
97 Posts
Posted - 03/21/2004 : 10:47:16 PM
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From what I hear the thicker and stronger nickel plated Winchester Supreme and Ballistic Silvertip CAN ,and have been used by members here. Note though that the case is thicker and stronger than standard brass (read Federal).

Silver Bear steel cased ammo can also be used I hear. Ditto on the Bosnian made IGMAN ammo that AIM carries.

As Perro correctly says, if you're plinking commercial ammo is W-A-A-Y expensive for the CETME. For hunting, the alternative above can be used. Stay way from commerical brass cartridges and in particular Federal. Hopefully someone will chime in here with other suggestions.

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Mountaineers are always Free


shari71
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
2172 Posts
Posted - 03/22/2004 : 12:59:55 AM
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From the experience, I've had nickel plated brass actually has thinner "brass" then regular brass think about it, the outside dimension has to be with in specs, if the inside capacity is the same, then the brass part must be thinner to accommodate the nickel plating. My buddy shoot .300 win mag, and he bought some nickel brass hoping to get more reloads out of it, and he actually only got 2 reloads instead of 4 or 5, ANd I was wrong before my CETME is marked ".308/7.62"

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COA 1043
FOG #68

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AKA WildBillCody
www.wildbillcody.com



CALIBER50
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



1661 Posts
Posted - 03/22/2004 : 05:37:24 AM
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My CIA tag that was on the gun when I bought it said " CETME/ .308 WIN."
Another CIA wonderbluss! 'though I havta admit that Ive had 0 probs with both of me Cetmes' KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK!!

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"It's the unconquerable soul of man, not the nature of the weapon he uses, that insures victory".
"Untutored courage is usless in the face of educated bullets!"
GEORGE S PATTON jr.


RepublicanMan
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
214 Posts
Posted - 03/22/2004 : 12:04:00 PM
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Thanks for all the replies.....I was able to grab two Aussie battle packs off of a friend for $60 but there's none available easily around here. I'm an impatient sort, I don't like to wait on things so I don't usually mail order but I guess I', going to have to.
Thanks again.



This is the toy if anyone's interested.

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Edited by - RepublicanMan on 03/22/2004 12:06:14 PM


Youngblood
Platinum Bullet Club



USA
5962 Posts
Posted - 03/22/2004 : 12:30:54 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by tog

... If you look at the brass, you can see where the 7.62 has been annealed around the case neck to make it stronger. ...
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Annealing makes the brass softer ... this is done, primarily, to avoid neck splits while inserting the bullets ... I have seen it on both military and commercial ammo ... I have actually done it to many cases before reloading.

<chuckle> I remember the first time I realized how much stronger the unannealed brass really is. I would, by habit, pull a bullet on a new lot of milsurp ammo for weighing & inspection. This would entail inserting the bullet end of the cartridge into an oak board with an appropriately-sized hole drilled thru it ... I would then "bend-it-out" by rotating and bending the neck until the bullet came out.

This always went easily and quickly ... until one day I tried it with a Brit .303 in its unannealed case ... DAMN! That was TOUGH! ... ended up having to wear leather gloves and LEAN on it ... hurt my hands ... later, I needed to drill a new hole in that oak plank ...



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When you are at the range or shooting
ALWAYS WEAR SAFETY GLASSES!
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tog
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1209 Posts
Posted - 03/22/2004 : 1:02:33 PM
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youndblood be correct. The annealing process will soften the brass. I have seen the process outlined for reloaders, using a propane torch, but I have never tried it myself. I havent reloaded in quit a while. I need to get back in the mode. tog


warthog
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
4820 Posts
Posted - 03/22/2004 : 4:35:54 PM
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Hmmm...propane torch and gunpowder. hehe

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I love my job.


Worland
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



1971 Posts
Posted - 03/22/2004 : 5:55:44 PM
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Century says it's OK to shoot 308 through your CETME, they just won't guarantee sporting style bullets will feed reliably in a rifle designed for FMJs.

I've done quite a bit of research on this subject and have discovered two things:

1. Most of the berdan primed military ammo has cases as thin as US commercial brass and often is made from far lower quality materials. So far, every picture of ruptured commercial brass I've seen was actually military fodder.

2. The thickness of the brass, and the pressure of the loading have little to do with catastrophic failures in these rifles. The problem comes from soft brass. Upon initial extraction, soft brass will imprint in the flutes and may cause a case head seperation. US commercial brass is harder than 90% of the 7.62 NATO everyone says is OK to shoot.

I've been shooting commercial ammo through my HK-91's for decades without a problem. Never had a problem shooting commercial ammo through any of my CETME's or G3's. Frankly, I just don't believe the claims about the commercial ammo failures.




bigdad390
Gunboards Super Premium Member



349 Posts
Posted - 03/22/2004 : 9:00:39 PM
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.308 and 7.62 NATO are not the same. Different dimensions and SAAMI pressure 7.62 nato = 50,000 psi, .308 62,000 psi. click the following links to find out more. http://www.thegunzone.com/30cal.html
http://outdoorsbest.zeroforum.com/zerothread?id=87590
http://www.armalite.com/library/techNotes/tnote11.htm



Dr Zero
Moderator



USA
2694 Posts
Posted - 03/22/2004 : 10:17:31 PM
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Perro was it you that ripped the head off and then had a heck of a time with the broken shell extractors or was that another member I rember that from the old board.


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www.drzero.org/coa
The Original CETME manual's Free for DL at www.drzero.org/cetme
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shari71
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
2172 Posts
Posted - 03/22/2004 : 10:33:03 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by bigdad390
[br].308 and 7.62 NATO are not the same. Different dimensions and SAAMI pressure 7.62 nato = 50,000 psi, .308 62,000 psi. click the following links to find out more. http://www.thegunzone.com/30cal.html
http://outdoorsbest.zeroforum.com/zerothread?id=87590
http://www.armalite.com/library/techNotes/tnote11.htm
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They are the same dimensions, the head space gaues are the same, chambering reamers are the same, usually 7.62 is measured in C.U.P., which is different and does not transfer over to P.S.I.
The only difference is the thickness of the brass, usually commercial brass is thinner, therefore has more internal volume, I need to work on this some more.
www.armalite.com/library/techNotes/tnote11.htmSo from reading this article someone needs to figure out what the CETME's headspace should be, but wait it doesn't have headspace it has bolt gap, now we're screwed.

Perro was it you that ripped the head off and then had a heck of a time with the broken shell extractors or was that another member I rember that from the old board.

It was Perro, This is like the ground bolt discussion.

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COA 1043
FOG #68

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AKA WildBillCody
www.wildbillcody.com


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Edited by - shari71 on 03/22/2004 10:42:42 PM


perro del diablo
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1548 Posts
Posted - 03/22/2004 : 10:46:24 PM
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the headspace guages are NOT the same

i have both nato no go guages, and commercial
they are not the same

the military guages are allowed more play before having to be pulled out of service due to the fact that the brass is stronger - .002 inches to be exact

it is like bolt gap discussion, and it was me who split the case and took pics of it

actually alot of nato ammo is rated in kgcm2 and must be converted to psi - this is the metric equivalent


and yes the nato brass IS thicker - it is advised in every single reloading manual ive ever seen that if using military brass to reduce the amount of powder in the case because of thicker brass

usually its in the webbing area that its thicker - this helps to prevent case head seperations


Mike

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Dr Zero
Moderator



USA
2694 Posts
Posted - 03/22/2004 : 10:53:28 PM
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It was Perro, This is like the ground bolt discussion.


Oh man you went there!

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www.drzero.org/coa
The Original CETME manual's Free for DL at www.drzero.org/cetme
Along with G3 manual's and now 21 AK and SKS manuals


shari71
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
2172 Posts
Posted - 03/23/2004 : 01:12:54 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by perro del diablo

the headspace gauges are NOT the same

i have both nato no go gauges, and commercial
they are not the same
the military gauges are allowed more play before having to be pulled out of service due to the fact that the brass is stronger - .002 inches to be exact

it is like bolt gap discussion, and it was me who split the case and took pics of it

actually alot of nato ammo is rated in kgcm2 and must be converted to psi - this is the metric equivalent


and yes the nato brass IS thicker - it is advised in every single reloading manual ive ever seen that if using military brass to reduce the amount of powder in the case because of thicker brass

usually its in the webbing area that its thicker - this helps to prevent case head seperations


Mike

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Maybe the NATO or Mil-Spec Gauges are different, but I've contacted Forster and PTG and they both say that .308 and 7.62x51 use the same gauges, and the same chambering reamers, and that they are dimensionally the same. Now I'm not saying that the Spainish or the Germans or the Portuguse all make their barrels the same, I'm just repeating what the companies that make the tools here in the good Ole US of A are telling me.

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COA 1043
FOG #68

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AKA WildBillCody
www.wildbillcody.com


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Edited by - shari71 on 03/23/2004 01:14:06 AM


bigdad390
Gunboards Super Premium Member



349 Posts
Posted - 03/23/2004 : 8:43:14 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by shari71


quote:
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Originally posted by bigdad390
[br].308 and 7.62 NATO are not the same. Different dimensions and SAAMI pressure 7.62 nato = 50,000 psi, .308 62,000 psi. click the following links to find out more. http://www.thegunzone.com/30cal.html
http://outdoorsbest.zeroforum.com/zerothread?id=87590
http://www.armalite.com/library/techNotes/tnote11.htm
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They are the same dimensions, the head space gaues are the same, chambering reamers are the same, usually 7.62 is measured in C.U.P., which is different and does not transfer over to P.S.I.
The only difference is the thickness of the brass, usually commercial brass is thinner, therefore has more internal volume, I need to work on this some more.
www.armalite.com/library/techNotes/tnote11.htmSo from reading this article someone needs to figure out what the CETME's headspace should be, but wait it doesn't have headspace it has bolt gap, now we're screwed.

Perro was it you that ripped the head off and then had a heck of a time with the broken shell extractors or was that another member I rember that from the old board.

It was Perro, This is like the ground bolt discussion.

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I should have said the chamber dimensions are different. .308 pressure is listed in the saami book as 62,000 psi and 52,000 c.u.p. with a max proof pressure of 89,000 p.s.i. 7.62 nato is listed as 50,000 psi and does not list the c.u.p. with max proof pressure of 67,500 p.s.i. If you have some time on your hands check out the Army Ammunition Data Sheets at http://derek.uberh4x0r.org/firearms/docs/tm43-0001-27.pdf be warned however, that there are 325 pages of ammunition data here.


Alias_Racing
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
137 Posts
Posted - 04/20/2004 : 11:05:11 PM
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Hey Worland, What type of 308 WIN ammo do you use in your HK and Cetme?

I just Gots to know.. lol

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http://forum.ironcrossroads.com
http://forum.ironcrossroads.com/lofiversion/index.php
Alias_Racing
COG #80
FRAG #58
COA #10442

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." - Plato


HirschJäger
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
107 Posts
Posted - 04/21/2004 : 12:02:23 AM
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Here's something to ponder...

The US manufactured loads for 8x57 mauser are weak as a kitten (30-30 like power where they SHOULD be in the 30-06 range). Why? The 1888 commission rifle was chambered in 8x57 BUT with a Ø.319 bullet (known in Europe as 8x57J)unlike the later 8.57JS with the Ø.323 bullet (all WWI & II mausers). The commission rifle would develop a dangerous chamber pressure if it ever was fired with a 8x57JS. SO the US ammunition manufacturers assumed that the American consumers were too stupid to tell the difference between a k98 and a commission rifle (the Europeans somehow managed for a hundred years though) and they down loaded the 8x57 (no J or JS in America) to a point where it could no longer blow up a commission rifle. This was long before the era of "sue anyone for anything and win". In this day and age I find it unbelievable that the ammunition manufacturers would make interchangable cartriges (.308 win)capable of generating 125% of max loading (vs 7.62x51) and approaching proof loads (vs 7.62x51 again)just from the product liability standpoint.

By the way, I only shoot milsurp or reduced power reloads in mine.

You never know.

-JDK

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"Rome remained free for 400 years, and Sparta 800, although their citizens were armed all that time; but many other states that have been disarmed have lost their liberties in less than forty years"
-Machiavelli



DonNikmare
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
104 Posts
Posted - 04/21/2004 : 01:52:15 AM
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This is the article that cleared things up for me once an for all

http://www3.sympatico.ca/shooters/7_62vs308.htm

Nik


mausermaniac
Gunboards Member



USA
85 Posts
Posted - 04/21/2004 : 04:41:16 AM
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but but but......i have fired about 12 boxes of Russian steel cased .308 in my CETME and none of them FTE or ripped apart.....don't you feel that the steel cases are tougher than any brass cases can be???? Come on let me hear something on this issue.....i really am curious about your feed back.....

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The conquerability of imminent domain makes aggression inevitable.
Snook
COA10468
COG #118


Eagle 1
Gunboards Member



USA
19 Posts
Posted - 04/21/2004 : 7:37:08 PM
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Hey Worland!

Here's some Remington brass that came apart in my Cetme along with a bunch that nearly came apart. Note the shiny rings around the case at the point where the others did separate. Every reloading manual worth its salt states plainly that military brass is thicker than commercial brass, they've been saying it for 50 years, and that you have to start working up loads at a point 10% less than commercial brass. YMMV obviously, but its not something I'll be doing.

Eagle 1

Download Attachment:
130.88 KB

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The problem with troubleshooting is, real trouble shoots back

-Unknown


Helo68
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
513 Posts
Posted - 04/21/2004 : 7:46:43 PM
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Concurrent with Eagle1's statement, i've had a few of those myself, even with Remington ammo. Since then i've stuck strictly with milsurp. This is a rifle that's been in combat since before i was born, and i'm one to listen to experience, if they say "Don't use commercial ammo." then i don't use commercial ammo. End Of Story.

Helo

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The voices aren't real,.. the voices aren't real,.. the voices aren't real,.....but they do have some pretty good ideas!


Cetme
1911 x2
Remington 870exp
Savage 110 270Win
and much more....

COG #104
COA #10411
AOS #1


perro del diablo
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1548 Posts
Posted - 04/21/2004 : 9:12:58 PM
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wow - this topic is STILL active??, the cetme forum has been around for years, and there are 2 topics that you will NEVER get everyone to agree on

1 is the ground bolt, and the other 308 winchester vs military ammo


heres the way i see it. use whatever ammo YOU feel comfortable with. by all means ignore EVERYONE whos ever had commercial ammo failures, and stuff commercial 308 winchester into your rifle all day long - its YOUR rifle.

if you believe century arms, or whats stamped on the side of the rifle, then use the stuff


i have a nato no go guage that is .002 inches longer than the forster, and .003 inches longer than the clymer field reject guages, and a loose barrel, and a mitutoyo depth micrometer for anyone needing solid proof that the 2 are not the same. fly out here and you can check it out all you like

2 thousandths of 1 inch isnt very large, and might not seem like alot BUT considering the difference between go, and no guages is only 4 thousandths of one inch, thats about the size of a cadillac in the precision world of headspacing


spain has NEVER used the american 308 winchester cartridge in ANY of there military firearms. they use nato 762 for there military firearms. the barrels on your cetme are taken off of deactivated military cetme machine guns, so if you think the cetmes (or HK g3s for that matter that come from germany and also use nato ammo) were made to shoot american commercial 308 winchester, then nothing i (or anyone else for that matter) say is ever gonna change your mind, so blast away

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perro del diablo
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1548 Posts
Posted - 04/21/2004 : 9:34:49 PM
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and for that matter, OF COURSE the american made guage companies are gonna tell you that the guages they sell are the same for both 308 and 762, but why???


if the guages are .002 inches smaller than the nato guage, then this means if you use the american guage, then you will pull your rifle out of service sooner to fix it than allowing it to go the extra wear before it closes on a real nato guage


THAT is your liability protection right there - this limits the guage manufacturer from exploded guns by making there guages the length of nato guages

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perro del diablo
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1548 Posts
Posted - 04/21/2004 : 9:49:03 PM
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and as far as chamber reamers go (sorry, you caught me in a mood for explaning myself)

first lets look at a reamer, and what it does

you have a solid round rod that has been turned down on a lathe
then, you drill a hole into the end of it all the way through for the bore and a larger size part of the way through with a drill (aka drill bit) for the chamber

ever drill a hole through anything with a drill bit?? ever notice that the hole is not perfectly round?? why?? the design of the drill bit doesnt allow this. they NEVER make perfectly round holes

now, break out the reamer and the reamer makes the hole PERFECTLY round and corrects any problems with out of roundness

when you chamber a barrel (not that i have ever chambered a barrel, but i understand how they do it) you chamber it for the MINIMUM size hole that a cartridge will reliably fit into - idealy, you would want it to BARELY close on a GO guage, but not even come close on a NO GO guage - with me so far???

the no go guage, and field reject guages arent used until the rifles chamber and bolt parts become worn right??

so with this is mind, you want to ream a bore to a go guage - if you dont, it will be too loose, and your rifle will pass a no go guage and field reject guage to soon, and it will be unsafe to shoot, or it will be too large in the bore diameter and you will have case failures too easily



anyone smell what perros cookin??

wild billy, my posts arent directed towards you - just what you posted, and only posted to try to explain how i understand it, and it differs from your understanding, thats all


Mike

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Blankwaffe
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
228 Posts
Posted - 04/22/2004 : 02:48:35 AM
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Ive finish reamed enough 7.92x57 barrels to know you also want to use the go-gage for setting the minimum chamber depth as well...if not the chamber will be short and too tight headspace.Which can be a bad thing just as having long headspace.Also getting the chamber cut to where it will just barely close on a go-gage increases accuracy.The leade also plays a important roll.Short leade can cause pressure issues.Long leade can cause an accuracy decrease.
Also chamber dimensions and head space are also slightly different than cartridge dimensions and cartridge headspace.If not the cartridges would not easily chamber or be reliable in function.Thats why you have to fully resize fired brass for auto loaders.
And military NATO chambers are also loose compared to say a SAAMI spec to allow the weapon to function more reliably with not so prefect ammo,conditions,fouling and dirt build up.Like Perro showed military chambers are larger.
Tighter chambers may not be as reliable in combat conditions and offer more ammo related stoppages as well.
Ive got a Armalite M15A2 that has a Wilson HB with a tight SAAMI .223Rem. chamber that will not function well with just any ammo.Very picky.The 5.56 NATO is the chamber to have in an AR unless your a target shooter.
7.62 NATO ammo could also cause issues if used in .308win chambers due to the tighter specs of the chamber.Bullets seated long on some 7.62 NATO and or long throats could be forced into the leade increasing pressures.
Anyway got off subject there.

As far as shooting .308 Win. commercial ammo...I have shot a bunch of Winchester 150gr.SP,Barnaul .308 and some IGMAN 150gr.SP without issues.Of the three the Barnaul seemed very lightly loaded.Seat of the pants comment there.
Does that make me right?No.But it works in my rifle perfectly..308win. also functions perfectly in my brothers G3.
I think the bullet weight makes a huge difference with the cetme,so I would stay below 150gr.
Also stay with standard grade .308win.,the cheap stuff.No premium or light magnum loads.
I also think the bolt gap has alot to do with how well the rifle handles .308win.
If you have a low bolt gap,which gives longer lock up and delay the brass is not put to such extremes since the bolt/cycle speed is greatly decreased...and the case is extracted at much slower speeds and under less ignition/chamber pressure.The cartridge case has sometime to recover from expansion from the ignition and extraction is easier.
Locking piece angle could have an effect on this as well.
Higher bolt gaps would allow the cartridge to start rearward while under higher chamber pressure and at a higher rate of speed due to less lock up and delay.The carrier,bolt and cartridge are moving while the cartridge case is still expanding at its most extreme and being forced against the chamber.
With that said my cetme bolt gap is below .009" and has much slower cycle than the high end bolt gap cetme's Ive fooled with.
I also installed a new bolt locking lever and spring which also added to the delay on my rifle.Very noticeable change from the worn parts I had.Can also be felt when charging the cetme with more resistance required on the cocking handle.
You can see the carrier cycle and the brass come out on my cetme.Its moving darn fast but you can see the thing work.Brass still goes out to about 15'-20' but its moving slow.
Other cetme's and G3's Ive fooled with that had high end bolt gap really moves and flings brass at blinding speed.
I had a video I did comparing the low bolt gap and high bolt gap cycle speed at one time and its unreal the difference in the two.
Would really be noticeable on a MG.
Thats a theory Ive been thinking about for over a year anyway.
But like others have said and shown .308win in the cetme could offer problems.
So if you want to try it and it works then great,if it does not then stay away from .308win and stay with 7.62x51 NATO mil-surp.
Ive used enough .308win in my cetme to feel comfortable with it and function.Not an issue in my baby.
Like I said I would stay below 150gr. for sure.Same rule applies to the AR-10,M1 Garand and M14 as far as Im concerned.
Raymond


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1st Tennessee Co.H

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Edited by - Blankwaffe on 04/22/2004 03:35:33 AM


Dr Zero
Moderator



USA
2694 Posts
Posted - 03/14/2005 : 11:55:50 AM
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btt

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www.drzero.org/coa
The Original CETME manual's Free for DL at www.drzero.org/cetme
Along with G3 manual's and now 21 AK and SKS manuals


shari71
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
2172 Posts
Posted - 03/14/2005 : 8:23:36 PM
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Doc, you had to go and do it didn't you!! Perro, no sweat man, I've been wrong before, and will again I'm sure.

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COA 1043
FOG #68

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AKA WildBillCody
www.wildbillcody.com



Dr Zero
Moderator



USA
2694 Posts
Posted - 03/16/2005 : 7:30:34 PM
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LOL! I just archive the info


Speaking of comercial ammo I have shot the nickle cases in my cetme on occasion with no problem but would not make it habit.


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www.drzero.org/coa
The Original CETME manual's Free for DL at www.drzero.org/cetme
Along with G3 manual's and now 21 AK and SKS manuals


Corcoran
Starting Member



2 Posts
Posted - 04/28/2005 : 07:16:10 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by RepublicanMan

What is the reason for not being able to use commercial .308 in the Cetme rifle?
I looked (admittedly not long or hard however) on Perros board and couldn't find anything direct and to the point about it.
Thanks.

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I know the posting is a bit dated but to make sure you get the CORRECT facts: The Cetme was designed as a BLOWBACK operated rifle. To facilitate this, the chamber is fluted so that there would be less surface to surface adhesion between the case and the chamber. This design requires the use of a very stiff case to function properly. Hard brass can work but steel casings are the best bet. Brass of normal hardness can flow into the flutes and stay there, resulting in head seperation upon extraction.
There have been many of these rifles assembled out of spare, surplus parts. Many of the original barrels were not marked until prior to assembly decades after manufacture, so if it has a fluted chamber, consider it to be a 7.62 Nato and stick with military ammo if at all possible. If you do try commercial brass, do it one round at atime until you are sure of it's ability to function, and make sure that you have a stuck case extractor for when (not 'if') you get a head seperation. I personally have made a small fortune removing brass from Cetme chambers without one return for the same problem.


Corcoran
Starting Member



2 Posts
Posted - 04/28/2005 : 07:30:18 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by perro del diablo

you can shoot commercial 308 winchester ammo in a cetme
you can also shoot commercial 308 winchester out of a mosin nagant
and you can shoot commercial 308 winchester in a 8mm mauser

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Please understand, I am not trying to stir up a ruckus but you really need to be more careful about what and how you state things. Specifically about shooting .308 ammo out of an 8mm mauser. This is an absolutely unacceptable and unsafe thing to do. I have had the responsibility of analyzing and presenting evidence in the Wisconsin Superior Court in a case against a well known chain sporting good store that sold a young man an 8mm 96 mauser and .308 ammo, assuring him it was the correct caliber. The 19 yr old had to have the right side of his face rebuilt as well as be fitted for a glass eye as a result of the cartridges detonation.


NRAJOE
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1568 Posts
Posted - 06/25/2005 : 09:22:40 AM
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How come no one ever answered this guy....

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U.S Army 1976-79
237th Combat Engineer Battalion
Wharton Barracks
Heilbronn, Germany

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CobraR04
Gunboards Member



22 Posts
Posted - 06/30/2005 : 10:13:36 PM
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Last summer there was a guy with a CETME shooting commercial .308 and, I don't know how it did this, but he showed me a cartridge that had been literally sheared in half by the bolt. He's probably lucky it didn't blow up in his face.

Lessons learned: either shoot NATO or leave it at home and shoot .22's instead.


crotalus
Gunboards Member



USA
11 Posts
Posted - 09/24/2005 : 02:15:58 AM
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Has anyone tried aerasol freon or nitrogen,when trying to remove a broken shell? I was told at a local gun shop that spaying the brass down, will shrink it enough to let it fall out of the chamber.
I'm new to cetmes and have heeded the advice voiced, so I haven't had the problem....yet. I collect specialty rounds,although I haven't shot any but a few milsurp types,I know the day will come when the "black widow" wont let go of the brass,from a commercial round I couldn't resist tapping. Just wondering if the aerasols work,(I've read the extraction of a broken shell can be a real task...)


Celticwhite
Gunboards Member



USA
42 Posts
Posted - 12/19/2005 : 08:04:13 AM
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Never tried that...

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www.thegermanhelmet.com


Minuteman
Gunboards Member



USA
66 Posts
Posted - 12/31/2005 : 8:31:26 PM
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FWIW, today I shot 15 rounds of Wolf .308, brass cased, boxer primed, soft point, no problemos. However, based on all the evidence, I think I'll stick to Nato unless I plan on hunting with the CETME, which ain't too likely. I have shot South AFrican and Paki with no problemos. Love that Cetme! Happy New Year! The fireworks are starting and I bought $18 worth of 'crackers on the way home from the range!


tribe
Gunboards Member



USA
38 Posts
Posted - 01/14/2006 : 5:19:51 PM
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If you're reloading theEIndian brass cases, you need the mic and the case trimmer. Both, you notice- refers to cartridge length, and dis the fluted brass cases! Bolt action 2A1 is OK. A semiauto
Hk or Cetme is too expensive and you should not throw reloads through them!


justashooter
Gunboards Member



USA
75 Posts
Posted - 07/16/2006 : 08:20:06 AM
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"Annealing makes the brass softer ... this is done, primarily, to avoid neck splits while inserting the bullets ... I have seen it on both military and commercial ammo ... I have actually done it to many cases before reloading."

actually, annealing makes the brass more ductile. there is a difference. ductility is a measure of a metal's ability to deform without tearing.


flybyu
Gunboards Member



USA
93 Posts
Posted - 08/14/2006 : 11:23:29 AM
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You do not want to use commercial grade Winchester, Remington, or there off brand in CETME's unless you like using a broken shell remover a lot. Stay with military or you'll wish you had. Wolf steel case ammo works great in them.

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When Guns Are Outlawed
I'll Be An Outlaw


Nu-B
Starting Member



2 Posts
Posted - 02/25/2007 : 11:19:37 PM
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Question....What makes the HK-91 able to digest commercial 308 ammunition?



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Nu-B


jfowl31
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
713 Posts
Posted - 02/27/2007 : 6:28:46 PM
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Nu-B

The HK-91 falls under the same category... It still has a fluted chamber, and operation is identical to that of the cetme.

Its not generally recommended to use commercial 308 in an HK or a Cetme, but its still your choice.

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COA #106121 COG #1000 NRA #148440199

Copenhagen is my anti-drug!




Chin0
Gunboards Member



USA
21 Posts
Posted - 06/06/2007 : 3:22:23 PM
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http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=510357

As I was reading flybyu said something about wolf ammo in my above link. Is that what you are talking about? Does anyone else other than Minuteman and flybyu have any experience in the wolf steel case in their cetme? None of the shops around me sell 7.62 NATO around me, the only thing close to surplus is wolf. Thanks!


jfowl31
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
713 Posts
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 01:50:16 AM
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Chin0, thats the wolf everyone speaks of... yes.

A whole lot of guys shoot it through their cetmes with no problems, and the only problems that really ever seem to be reported is that wolf is dirty, so the rifle needs to be cleaned more often. Some say the laquer coating can gum up the flutes, but then theres a ton of guys that swear by the stuff.

Its definitely worth a try with the way surplus is getting. The steel case is hard enough that it wont rip apart on you, so you should be good to go.

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COA #106121 COG #1000 NRA #148440199

Copenhagen is my anti-drug!




Chin0
Gunboards Member



USA
21 Posts
Posted - 06/13/2007 : 01:48:24 AM
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thanks for the reply jfowl, I have been waiting for a reply for a little while now lol. Good thing you are around haha


jfowl31
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
713 Posts
Posted - 06/17/2007 : 12:10:32 AM
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A lot of people never check the stickies to see if there's any replies up there. we just get used to seeing the topics up at the top of the page, and dont look to see who has replied.

Have you tried out any wolf in your cetme yet?

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COA #106121 COG #1000 NRA #148440199

Copenhagen is my anti-drug!




Chin0
Gunboards Member



USA
21 Posts
Posted - 06/24/2007 : 7:45:59 PM
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no, never got a chance, I cannot find anywhere that sells them that is not out of stock or anywhere that even carries them but in 500rd cases



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jfowl31
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
713 Posts
Posted - 07/07/2007 : 02:21:11 AM
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Only place I can find Wolf anymore is at little gunshops that buy the stuff by the crate and sell it off 1 box at a time........

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COA #106121 COG #1000 NRA #148440199

Copenhagen is my anti-drug!




Nu-B
Starting Member



2 Posts
Posted - 08/05/2007 : 11:09:52 PM
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HK-91?

This has been mentioned BEFORE, but I can't find an answer that answers the question "Why can commercial 308 ammo be used in the HK-91, while it isn't supposed to be used in the Cetme?" I know the difference in commercial vs military loads - but how does the ammunition know the difference in chambers?

Thanks for your help.

NU-B

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Nu-B


drine
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
180 Posts
Posted - 08/05/2007 : 11:20:57 PM
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I'm not qualified to answer but if I guessed I'd say because the G3 and CETMEs we shoot are from old worn out(sometimes) parts assembled by inept(CAI) people. I had an HK years ago and we shot whatever we wanted through them. I've shot commercial in my CETME while hunting and a few rounds at the range to sight it in. It actually seemed to work a little better. But as they say, have a broken shell extractor handy. You never know what, when, where, or why something is going to happen.
 
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