[9.3x57]

Fellows, I'm starting another thread here as the issues that cropped up warrant a new start.

Here's the first thread on these bullets:

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=48833

I'm asked from time to time why I test every bullet in my media before using it on game, and normally the reason is merely to be informed as to what to expect. But when working on a project like resizing .375's to 9.3, it becomes absolutely necessary, as you will soon find out.

First, I went back to the drawing board in testing pressures in my rifle and suffice to say I went much higher than the load I finally settled on without any pressure problems IN MY RIFLE. Do not use my loads without complete workup from the start, incrementally and checking pressure signs.

I settled on a load of 45 grains H 4895 + the 300 grain bullet. Accuracy of the resized 300's appears excellent with the quick test I did there. At 100 meters {109 yards}, 3 shots went 1 1/16 inch center to center of the farthest shots. NO problems there.

But in the boards and jugs, things really started to happen, or didn't, as the case may be...

Shots gave incredible penetration, going thru 9 or more boards and jugs and then escaping into the backstop. What?

Eventually I captured some bullets, and in the first pic below is what they looked like:

Very little expansion. It appeared the curve of the jacket at the nose of the bullet when striking the first board curled in ever so slightly, and velocity was not sufficient to cause rupture and expansion. One or two DID peel back, but most did not. I burned up a lot of jugs trying to figure out what was going on. 2000-2050 fps velocity appears to be just too little to reliably cause expansion with this bullet.

Never say die tho, and the solution I found to be quick and easy. As usual, a quick Hollow Pointing with my Forster tool solved the problems. I used a .230 deep HP but I doubt the depth is too critical, as long as it gets into the curve of the bullet. I believe Daryl's cup pointing may work also.

Here we have the good performers, all fully penetrating at least 3 boards and 2 jugs, with expansion as you see:

Finally, the 225 Hornady Spire Point looks like a good one for deer AND elk, and may indeed be the real winner of the 220/225/300 test series!

After resizing requiring no point alteration. It met my own criteria for an elk bullet {3 boards, 2 jugs full penetration} and opens really well, as well as the softer 220 Hornady flat Point previously posted here: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=44120 .

Here's the 225:

 

[Daryl S]

Good eye-opener on unaltered 300's, LeeSpeed. I think I'll re-up my priorities and go with the 225's for all-round use. Their added velocity gives good trajectory for such a low recoil round. I had high hopes for the unlatered 300's, but a cup-point as you indicated might still be the best for bears in camp! At the ranges they'll be needed, a slightly low point of impact won't show. It is nice, however, to have a load that prints on the sights at 10 yards for those fast frontals.
: What load did you use for the 225's? Incidently, I went to 56gr. BLC2 with the light bullets in my M46 duplicating the 52.0gr. H4895 load. These were OK in my rifle with the seating depths I indicated. Changing seating depth in relation to the rifle's throat makes a BIG difference in velocity AND pressure. All loads must be work up from well below in any other rifle as chamber dimensions vary a great deal in these rifles. NOTHING can be taken for granted.
: Further note, those 300gr. RN's, with minor riveting of the nose are acting almost as good solids. Yes, I know riveting is frowned upon - but the penetration speaks for itself.

 

[9.3x57]

eye-opener

Daryl, the load was 56.0 grains of AA2230C surplus powder, same as what I used with the 220 FP's. I found no pressure signs with it, and it may even run at slightly less pressure than the 220's as the bearing surface is less as you mentioned in a past post.

Interestingly, recoil is heavier with the 225 load than it is with the 285's or 300's.

At 2400 to 2500 fps the 225 Hornady should really be a flat-shooting round, that is, for the 9.3x57, the best all-round "long range" load available in the 9.3x57 as far as I know. The 225 Hornady Spire Point has the best ballistic properties of any 9.3 light bullet I've seen, extending the point blank range of the rifle.

It shoots quite high compared to my old standby, the 285 Prvi, but not too far off windage, so I plan to see if I can get a 100 meter dead-on zero with the 285 Prvi and a 200 yard + zero with the 225. THAT would be a good combo for allround use of the rifle. That's up next. That's next on the agenda, to get these two loads to complement each other in that way.

BTW: All the bullet testing I do with the 9.3x57 continues to reinforce my opinion that the Prvi Partizan 285 is tailor made to the 9.3x57 velocities, at least for my game. Just when I think I might have something better, it looks great yet again. Having said that, I do believe the 300 Hornady's can be made to give somewhat deeper penetration than the Prvis, and that along with good expansion with merely a little point work, HP or cup pointing.

I thought so too about the 300 acting as a good FMJ, except...a couple expanded and acted just like softs!!! This type of erratic behavior is EXTREMELY rare. In fact, I've never experienced it before except with military FMJ's.

Fortunately, the mere addition of an HP made them predictable performers.

Here are a couple pic's that show the incredible depth of penetration the UN-opening 300's gave. This lineup didn't stop them and they continued on deep into the backstop!!

 

[GSP7]

Lee Speed,

Your work with 9.3 bullets and the 9.3x57 and resizeing 375 bullets is interesting.

Others, Ive read have not had much positive luck with resizeing bullets.

I just loaded some more 232gr oryx to play with. I need to get a scope on on of my rifles for some better range work

 

[9.3x57]

it took time

This morning I got to thinking about that 300 grain bullet, and the fact that because of the point profile, hollow points are difficult to center, and then I got to thinking about the slight curve in the jacket on the point of the 300 RN. It suddenly struck me that if I just removed that point, the jacket would not be able to rivet inward, and would have to expand outward.

In fact, the idea arose when I was thinking of the development of the .303 "Special" expanding bullet at Dum Dum Arsenal as described in Labbett and Mead's excellent ".303 Inch". The velocities of the two rounds are essentially identical, and the sectional density close enough. The Indians merely removed the top portion of the "envelope" and that worked reasonably well for them.

So how to do it?

Some years ago I came up with a method for removing tips of MKVII .303 Ball ammo, twisting a wrench socket on the tip of the bullet to scribe a line, then grinding down to that line on a bench grinder. It is FAST and is very importantly for accuracy, repeatable, easy to make bullets identical.

So that's what I did. And it works.

My Hornady 300 grain .375 caliber Round Nose bullets are now 296 grain .368 caliber Flat Points for my 9.3x57, perfectly mated to the 2050 fps +- velocity it generates.

I fired four shots into the Boards and Jugs. All fully penetrated at least 3 boards and 3 jugs. Actually, 3 penetrated 4 boards and 3 jugs. One lost its jacket but still penetrated 3 complete jugs. I prefer bullets to stay together, but even coming apart, the core portion that penetrated was 62% of the total bullet weight and is heavier than a typical 180 grain .30'06 bullet. Expansion overall was good, and jug hydraulic effect something to behold!

These bullets lose more weight in the media than the Prvi, but penetrate almost identically. This may be an advantage of sorts in trauma effect on game. To be determined.

Here are the bullets. Also pictured is the socket on the bullet and a flat pointed .368 bullet next to a .375 RN. I just hold the socket in my fingers and twist a scribe line on the tip, then grind to the line, give the edge a quick wipe on a revolving wire wheel and a sweep on a buffing wheel. Takes no time at all, even quicker than hollow pointing.

My daughter got in the act and fired the last shot, #5 in the picture. We only had 2 jugs left, and it went thru 2 boards, 2 jugs and also all the way thru 4 boards we piled up behind, coming to rest in the 5th board after the second jug.

I repeatedly checked the bullet for feeding from my HVA 146, and it fed slicker than Willie. Just to demonstrate that when I say the bullet is a flat point, I mean FLAT point, check this out. The cartridge is standing up on the table, on its own bullet.

Accuracy?

I shot 4, 3-shot groups at 100 meters. Two groups with flat points and two unaltered. Center to center of the farthest shots, they went 1.0625", 1.875", 1.875" and 1.125" for an average of 1.484 inches.

Good enough for me!

 

[LarrysGrip]

Once again ladies and gentlemen, what a grand work Rod has done. You keep talking about that easy recoil and who knows you may wean me up from the 6.5x55. Amazing to see K working on the 9.3 with you! Have some more loads for my rifles in pursuit of the greatest accuracy and effective game bullets. This testing is a great addition to your other fine projects.

 

[Daryl S]

Good stuff, Rod. I ground a lathe tool into a U shape for the nose, but with a long right-hand tip. I line up the right-hand tip with the bullet nose, and run the tool straight in. The left tip cuts the bullets of perfectly to the desired length. A touch with a fine file takes off any burr on the jacket material.

 

[AMMOe]

I love this thread! I swapped e-mails with Pat at Lee Precision the other day aand asked about getting some rbullet sizing dies. I specified .002" increments down to .366" and he said that that would be fine, but really, .003" increments would work just as well citing that he sized .338 bullets down to .330" in a Lee Classic iron press using no interim dies. He said that he starts with the die mounted high so that the bullet is cammed into the die with just the last bit of ram, adjusting downward with each stroke until the bullet pops free on the other side. In this way, he uses only one die and maximized the leverage in the press. He did suggest that this method would be tedious for most folks. What I wrote in return was to ask if he used lube on the bullets. I was thinking of Lee's case lube as is was originally intended for drawing wire. Any thoughts? ~Andy

 

[Nelsdou]

Yes, by coincidence I've made .330 bullets from 338 in one pass using that same method. I use Imperial sizing wax. However I'm not sure this would hold true for partitions or bullets with thick copper jackets.

I suspect going to bullets of bigger diameter the force for sizing goes up considerably, so I can understand going 2 or 3 mils a step on a .375 would be sound advice.

Nels

 

[Daryl S]

These are the bullets I've swaged down to .367" with a single pass and got perfectly straight bullets. Going in one step with a Lee die might turn out bananas as LeeSpeed found. The die is a shrotened .222 Pacific FL die. I reamed it slightly with a .375 throating reamer to get the proper step inside. Using Imperial die wax or STOS, the sizing pressure is equivalent to FL sizing most of the longer belted magnums.

 

[9.3x57]

A Couple Things...

First, AmmoE,

That is exactly the method I use to set up the die. As soon as the bullet breaks free of the sizing "ring" I set the lock. Once setup, the die is left alone and the bullets merely run thru. This method provides for the maximum leverage setup on the die. This is important as the effort required can be very difficult if the die is set up too low in the press.

.003 seems fine as an increment. Actually, I have a lot of these dies. .375, .370, .369, .368, .367, .366, .365, .364 and for other calibers. Frankly, the whole resizing thing itself has become a bit of a hobby in its own right for me. I enjoy playing around with the various bullets and have come to realize that many oddball calibers become quite useful with the mere addition of a few cheap dies.

I do run the bullets thru the final die twice, as I have found they "true up" a bit on the second pass, coming out maybe .0005 or so out of round the first pass, and then right on the second.

I use Hornady UNIQUE lube. It works great.

Nels, I agree, Partitions would be a different story and CERTAINLY monolithic copper/brass bullets might be impossible to size in a Rock Chucker like mine.

One more thing.

Accuracy.

My first attempts were "disastrous" with Banana-shaped Hornady 270 SP's the result. 5-shot 100 meter groups ran something around 7-inches.

And yet the first experiment on meat was made with one of those Boomerangs {the steer above} and it killed like lightning. I was hooked on the concept. Trouble was I was using a .364 die, making one pass from .375 down, and never bothered to check the groove diameter of the rifle. Now I realize one of the real advantages of these dies is that they allow sizing the bullet to the gun, something quite helpful when shooting a HVA 9.3 with their commonly overbore chamber/barrels.

Further, for some guidelines as to what accuracy to expect, I submit you may beat factory bullets in your rifle when using resized bullets, due to the above situation.

What should your accuracy standard be? Quite personal, but here's something to mull over:

Jon Speed, in "Mauser Archive", has included a copy of accuracy test results from the Oberndorf Mauser plant that shows 192 rifles of various calibers tested over a 2-year period {Oct 1930 - June 1933} by Herr Premauer, the director of the Mauser shooting range. These groups all fell inside a circle varying from 2.04 to 2.62 inches at 100 meters. These were considered good or very good results. "Outstanding" results were groups that fell within a 5 cm circle.

This level of accuracy is certainly attainable by resized .375 bullets in my HVA rifles. In fact, I am not certain factory, unaltered 9.3's will shoot appreciably better than my resized bullets in every incidence.

 

[befus]

Lee Speed,

Your work with 9.3 bullets and the 9.3x57 and resizeing 375 bullets is interesting.

I just loaded some more 232gr oryx to play with. I need to get a scope on on of my rifles for some better range work

I have some of those bullets too. Please do post results as my favorite 250 grain Ballistic Tips are no longer available..............

 

[AMMOe]

Lee: Thanks for the advice and experiences. I have the Lee lube as well as STOS and Imperial sizing wax. I may try silicone! In any event, I shall order dies. This may whip me into finishing the stock! I have a slew of mule deer at my disposal this fall and would like to take one with my Husky 9.3x57, my Haenel Model 1888 8x57J Sporter, and my 1900 Lee Light Express Rifle .303 British. A trio of classics....~Andy

 

[Daryl S]

Ammoe- you find that a high pressure lube is needed. Imperial and STOS fit that criteria perfectly. I am drawing from .375" down to .367" in one pass in my die, with perfectly straight bullets resulting. I am using a modified .222Fl die from Pacific. It is a very old die to start with. I attempted to make a set of dies for a fellow from Arizona out of RCBS .222 dies, and failed. The FL die was so tight it would not admit my reamer pilot up into the die more than 1/4", which is ridiculous, but about normal for RCBS. They seem to take no care in die manufacture. The .222 has a .375" normal case dimension at that point, yet the die was enough under .366" than my pilot would not enter. Too, typical with RCBS, the bloody hole in not round- but oval. I did turn the Seater into a drawing die, but it's hole was out .005". After some careful reaming, I was able to reduce that to .003", so it produces a bullet .368"x .371". This may or may not work in a large groove diameter 9.3, as some are, especially with cast. We checked the FL die and it-too had an oval chamber.

 

[Daryl S]

Over the years, I've come to dislike ctg. and rifles that are 'perfect' right from the gun store. If there isn't much to work and play with, I get bored right quicly, and sell it off. That isn't the way to increase the number of firearms in the gun room, I know. Even with my wildcats, I get bored easily and sell them off to a single friend, like the 9.5x68S and .30SS, along with the .458 2". He still has several of my old wildcats.
: The 9.3 x57 M46 for me has been fun and the playing with it is a continuing thing. Not finished with it by a long shot. Steel plates at 200 meters are pretty easy.
: A previous thread has data that works well in my rifle with 232gr. Normas using BLC2, H335 and H4895. I prefer BLC2 over H335 due to it being a bit slower and not getting as 'punchy' in hot weather. H4895 is very stable,no matter the temperature, which is why I'm using it more and more, especially in the .375/06IMP. It is also a great powder for the 9.3x62.

 

[9.3x57]

Interesting tidbit...

I bumped into something the other day whilst reading the ".375 Whelen Improved" article in "BIG BORE RIFLES AND CARTRIDGES" that I somehow missed in days gone by.

On page 195, right column, the author mentions he experienced poor expansion of the Hornady 300 RN in water-soaked phone books.

Somewhat queerly, but relevant to the 9.3x57 topic here, he mentions he was only able to get 1995-to-2080 fps with his rifle and this bullet. Now why he only got those speeds in a .375 Whelen Improved I have no idea, but what got my attention is that these speeds are right in line with the velocities I shot the 300 at in the 9.3x57 {2050} when I got such bizarre performance cited here.

I have extensively tested the 300 Hornady RN in media and shot game from the size of coyote, impala and deer thru to elk and blue wildebeest with it IN THE .375 H&H MAGNUM and always I got good expansion. In fact, in the .375 it gave somewhat violent expansion.

Thus, my assessment is this bullet appears to open hard, but when it does open, it lets go fast. NOT what you want for resizing use in a 9.3x57.

Bottom line for anyone who wants to resize it and shoot it in a 9.3x57; DON'T unless you "trick" the point some to make it open. Modified correctly, it makes for a heavy, fast opener and might have some advantages for some specialized use in the 9.3x57.

 

[Daryl S]

I have no idea why that author got results poorer than a standard .375 Whelen. My .375'06IMP has a capacity of 78gr. - identical to the 9.3x62's I measured that were fired in a factory rifle. My .375 IMP.'06 runs 2,470fps with that 300gr. bullet. Too much of a good thing - kicks to much for me right now.

The 9.3x57 is my new 'pet'. Running 2,170fps with 300's, 2,300fps with 270's and 2,550fps with sized 225gr. Hornady's. What more does a guy need for North American hunting? Other than a gopher rifle or two, that is.

 

[gil]

anybody resize solid tips or barnes x tip 375 to 366

I have 300 count 300grain winchester 375 bullets and a box of X bullets that are candidates for this purpose in my 9.3x62 Husky. What thinks you with experience in this arcane methodology of the possibility of learning and going through the process?
thanks
gil

 

[Daryl S]

I would not attempt to alter Barnes X bullets, triple shock or otherwise. The press needed can be purchased from Corbin. A handloading press is far beneath this endeavour. The dies have to be special steel or carbide and have the proper temper as well. Normal dies would possibly expload.

Lead core bullets can be reduced easily with appropriate dies in a normal heavy duty, camp-action press. Imperial die wax or STOS works well.

 

[9.3x57]

I would not attempt to alter Barnes X bullets, triple shock or otherwise. The press needed can be purchased from Corbin. A handloading press is far beneath this endeavour. The dies have to be special steel or carbide and have the proper temper as well. Normal dies would possibly expload.

Lead core bullets can be reduced easily with appropriate dies in a normal heavy duty, camp-action press. Imperial die wax or STOS works well.

Exactly.

I have tried to resize a .375 Barnes X bullet in my Lee die. No dice in my Rock Chucker. I mean, forget it! And getting the stuck bullet out of the die was no fun either in spite of the fact that I gave up without {I thought...} reefing on the thing too much.

I will only resize lead core bullets.

I use the Hornady case lube you can use as a hand cream and a boot grease {not the spray stuff}. Bullets feel like they just WANT to squirt thru the die.