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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
After spending some range time with my MLE M-16 rifle,i have become a berthier convert.I picked up what i thought was a bubbed Carbine,but now have some questions.
I recieved it today and it looks like it might have been a duffle cut instead of bubba(not that it really matters as the rest was probabally thrown out years ago.)It is missing a couple parts(horizontal mag screw,mag cover,bands)but Springfield sporters had what i need to make it shoot again.

My first look down the tube did not instill a lot of confidence(grungy),but after quickly running a couple clp patches down the bore revealed a strong mirror bright bore!Looks like it might make a decent shooter. Minus shipping,carbine set me back about 50 bucks.

It is dated 1933,and has a PK stamped into the right rear reciever.I have heard it was a polish mark but am not really sure.
 

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What a great buy for $50. I have always felt that you could not go wrong in this price range of less than $75.
Where did you find her?
Tribrothers
 

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I just picked up one of these and My stock is cut in about the same spot.. I think I have the PK stamped on this one too.. I will have to dig it out this weekend and look.. Mine has no import marks and I too think it may be duffle cut and the rest of the parts thrown away... I just need to pickup some reloading dies to I can play with this gun... Nice lookin carbine..
Randy L Peterson
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
Recieved a mag cover,and screw today from Springfield sporters.With the bore being as nice and shiney as it is,i hope it turns out to be a nice shooter. It is a shame it has parts missing.
With purchace price plus shipping,i have 75.00 in it.Maybe one day i'll run into enough parts to bring it back from the darkside.
 

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Markus I'm glad to see the carbine made its way to you. Good luck with the restoration and hopefully you have more paitence and luck than I did. I'm also glad that the bore cleaned up like I thought it would. Please let us know how it shoots.
 

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Again a "PK" stamped Berthier M16 mousqueton. There was a discussion about the meaning of that marking on the old forum. Eventually, nobody knew really what it did mean. Someone sent pictures of a 1886 M93 marked that way (or a 1886 M93 R35?). Someone else remembered that the ones he had seen were coming from Morocco. Their common features are, if I remember well : wood stock changed, heavily refurbished receiver (re-machined, M16 marking re-stamped, parkerized), barrel changed (30's). I don't know if the polish origin is true. For as much as I know, no PK marking with known meaning on firearms. The PK marking is visible on cartridges made by Pocisk Spolka Akcyjna (Poland, produces from 1919 to 1939), but on ammos made by Polte (Germany) and by Paul Karcher (France) too (sources : Culots de munitions, tome I, S. Jorion, P. Regenstreif).
 

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PK redux

I wish I had saved this story,
Anyway as best I can remember one other story posted here (on the old/old forum) was that the PK mark was for a rebuilder near in or near Paris.
 

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Parc du Klingenthal

I vote for "Parc du Klingenthal" It cannot be Polish, account the "N" mark invariably seen on these guns..

Dale
 

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Dale, a clever assessment, but no dice! Klingenthal was strictly a blade and body armor factory, not geared up to handle rifle repairs.

On the few pictures of PK stamped Berthiers I have seen, the receiver has been buffed and the original Arsenal markings are erased and replaced by a funny looking M16 marking that looks hand made and foreign in shape.

The fact that the barrels are dated of the mid Thirties and N rechambered do not preclude these rifles from being part of a delivery to a foreign Army.

French military hardware such as light tanks and 25mm & 47mm antitank guns was sent to Poland in 1938, with training and maintenance teams who fought alongside the Poles in 1939.

kelt
 

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The fact that the barrels are dated of the mid Thirties and N rechambered do not preclude these rifles from being part of a delivery to a foreign Army. kelt
kelt,

Sorry for the OT reply, but how can I contact you offline? I noticed you aren't (or weren't) set up to receive private messages. I'd like to ask a question about the possibility of searching French arsenal archives for rifle shipment information. Thanks!

C/
 

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Recovering from the fire mode.
I could locate one of the old thread on that subject, There are no picture left, when my systems are all back up I will put the pictures agaim
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vivelacolo
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
304 Posts
Posted - 09/13/2005 : 4:24:04 PM
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Another Lebel to fit on the rack.


Download Attachment:
178.26 KB
It is a 1901 production from MAS FM prefix it is N proofed. The metal is painted black except for the trigger guard, bolt, and the slide. Except for the bolt all numbers matching, no import marks.

Download Attachment:
176.66 KB
The reason I got it.

Download Attachment:
169.16 KB
PK .
I have been under the impression that the PK marking appears only on mousquetons reworked before WW2. In the past I have seen perhaps 20 or 30 of those carbines , all were reworks and appeared to come from the same importation ,in the late 1990. I have never seen PK on long Berthier rifles and I never seen it on a Lebel, except for this one.
Here for comparison
Download Attachment:
196.68 KB
This is a MAC 1939 rework prefix BD consistent with chatellerault, imported by century.
Download Attachment:
169.22 KB
I thought that perhaps the Lebel would have some markings helping in determining the origin of the PK marking.
I examined both rifles and except for the PK marking there is no markings outside of the norms
Any new ideas or new information as to the meaning of PK?
Regards .

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Robert Olivier

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Edited by - vivelacolo on 09/13/2005 4:34:53 PM

vonmazur
Moderator



USA
1762 Posts
Posted - 09/13/2005 : 6:55:47 PM
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"Parc du Klingenthal" The Artillerie Facility in the old Imperial/Royal Arsenal....I do not buy for a minute the Turkish explanation, as the "egotistical" Turks would have stamped their own marks all over the gun....It cannot be Greek or Serbian, wrong alphabet, so it narrows it down to France or Poland or Turkey....Some of the local "Experts" claim it is German WW 2 "Politzei Kommandantur" but I have touble with this one too....You guess is as good as anyone's these days!!!

Dale in Ala

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"If those little sweethearts won't face German bullets,then they'll face French ones!"
General Mireau in Stanley Kubrick's "Paths of Glory" 1955


mcgoo422000
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
795 Posts
Posted - 09/13/2005 : 11:46:19 PM
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Hi Vivalecolo : That looks just like lebel i was bidding on
2 weeks ago on AA . except triggergarurd was painted
and broken off with a bubba attached machine screw and nut through
tang .
Thats why i was bidding also the PK mark . Vonmazur said that they were just some rebuild marks . you mentioned you have never seen a PK marked berthier long rifle i believe there was one sold at the gunshop last year . Vonmazur will know ?
Glad to see you got it fixed Have you fired it yet ?
mcgoo

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Jesus saves Allah forgives and cthulhu thinks you'd make a mighty fine sandwich
(was told i needed comma's so here they are ,,,,,,,,)


vivelacolo
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
304 Posts
Posted - 09/14/2005 : 01:24:01 AM
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Mcgoo,
That is the one, I usually do not pay that much for a Lebel. and I have quite few of them, but the attraction was the PK.
The trigger guard was broken and was very "patined " but not painted, I replaced it with a similar one I had in my library of parts.
Apparently bubba lost all the screws attaching the buttstock to the reciever, broke the tang of the trigger guard and decided to drill a hole through the upper tang, through the buttstock and ran a phillips head screw through it all and secured the all thing with a nut. I admired in wonder , for few minutes , that proof of superiority of the human race over the monkeys.
The rifle is back ,as close as can be, to its original condition, except for the hole in the rear tang., that I will leave untouched as proof of human superiority.
Dale,
if I remember we have discussed that issue of the PK marking before and apparently we do not know any more now than what we knew then.
Klingenthal is an interesting theory but the problem is that the factory was closed after 1822 and sold to a private entity, and I can cannot find trace of the Parc d'artillerie after Louis XV. May be my search engine is deficient, and I would love somebody to find more info.
The German approach is equally interesting but the German military being so anal the rifles probably would have been marked with waffenampts.
One of the the "experts" with whom I had a discussion on that subject and who is very knowledgable on eastern European history, formulated the theory of PK standing for "polizei Kriminal", like on PPK. But Politzei Kommandantur could fit the description as well.
Turkish approach does not make sense even though a couple of French sites give it as an explanation.
If i remember well the Importation of those rifles occured in the middle to late 1990, and it was coming from North Africa and I believe namely Morocco . I remember a table at the Great Western in Pomona with 15 or 20 mousquetons all marked PK all having been imported by Century, could that be where the solution is, K for Kabile ? Or other North African origin.
I am reaching for straws?
Best regards



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Robert Olivier

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Edited by - vivelacolo on 09/14/2005 01:53:28 AM


fk
Gunboards Super Premium Member



439 Posts
Posted - 09/14/2005 : 10:10:41 AM
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What is PK is anybody’s guess. I suspect that it is some sort of receiver blank subcontractor’s mark, although it could be something else. I agree that the Turkish explanation is the not very likely.


Robert, your Lebel is also interesting because it is near the end of production (possibly the last MAS letter bock), which ceased at St. Etienne in 1904. Do you mind posting the approximate serial number and barrel proof month?






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Edited by - fk on 09/14/2005 10:14:00 AM


mcgoo422000
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
795 Posts
Posted - 09/14/2005 : 11:21:58 AM
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Hi Robert : The hole being drilled through the tang
wasn't described by prior owner , when i e-mailed him .
Joe turner in calif. might can fix the tang ?
By the serial number i was thinking the rifle was made
somewhere along 1893-95 ? Dale informed me that any reciever with
3-digit assembly marks were made prior to 1894 ?
Are you going to repair the buttstock ?
mcgoo



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Jesus saves Allah forgives and cthulhu thinks you'd make a mighty fine sandwich
(was told i needed comma's so here they are ,,,,,,,,)


vonmazur
Moderator



USA
1762 Posts
Posted - 09/14/2005 : 6:08:55 PM
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It think "PK" is a rebuild mark, as it is often found on varied and sundry guns, so if it was a sub contractor of a specific time, it would not appear on a Lebel and a Berthier Long Rifle too...

I thought that the French maintained an Artilery Parc in Klingenthal before WW 2, but mayby you are right, I cannot find anything on that either!!

Get a threaded rod of the correct pitch and fill the hole left by the "Gun Expert"....IF done carefully, it would be almost un-noticeable...

Robert: Remember the AD on TV for the vocational college?? "Six months ago, I couldn't spell Gunsmiff, now I are one!!" I always envision this when I look at these exapmles of what here in Alabama, we call; "Banjo-dueller-engineering"

I was told by someone here, that the alpha-numeric code was deleted in 1892, when the French got the interchangeability up to a higher standard. Obviously, the codes were needed if the parts and components were assembled before rust blueing, and had to be matched up later for delivery to the Commitee of Reception..

I will look for the "PK" Long gun and get James to put up the pix...

Dale in Ala

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"If those little sweethearts won't face German bullets,then they'll face French ones!"
General Mireau in Stanley Kubrick's "Paths of Glory" 1955


vivelacolo
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
304 Posts
Posted - 09/20/2005 : 2:52:05 PM
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I must apologize for taking so long in responding , I was away for few days.
FK
Here are the markings.
Serial number
FM140xx
date on barrel
1901
Month of production
10 for octobre
Steel
AB
inspectors L and K

Mcgoo
Here is a picture of the third hole.

Download Attachment:
122.25 KB
It is a well known fact that special bubba troops, because of this third hole could install a special tang peepsight.
I do not think that I will repair, I have the equipment to do so but I prefer to leave it as is and I will leave the stock alone as well even though I have the dove tail to perform the traditional French arsenal repair.
Dale
I tend to agree with you that PK stand for a repair mark or an acceptance mark from an organization or foreign government.
The fact that those rifles appear to be coming for North Africa make me wonder if the French did not have a repair facilty there?
Also at variuos epochs the French gave to the local population , both pieds noirs and arabs, some or their obsolete weapons , could PK be a way to identify them?
Also during the transfer of power some of those rifles could have been given to the new local military, and, or, police forces?
those are only speculations
Best regards.



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Robert Olivier


vonmazur
Moderator



USA
1762 Posts
Posted - 09/20/2005 : 5:56:07 PM
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Robert: I agree, I wonder about the North African connection, there are lots of "K"'s in Arabic....

Dale

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"If those little sweethearts won't face German bullets,then they'll face French ones!"
General Mireau in Stanley Kubrick's "Paths of Glory" 1955



As soon as I have a chance to unload the French rifles from the truck I will add some pictures. As I am writing I am watching through my window the president of the United State landing few hundred yards waway to survey the fire I must say something that I thought I would never say, I am glad to see George Bush in person, I know, now with certainty that the fire is over!

Just got a call, one of my friend He was recieving for me a PA50, my friend and his wife died in their burning house
Sorry
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
More pics of markings

Below are a few pics of the markings of the PK marked carbine.
It is N marked, and not import marked. The stock has a duffle cut(anybody have a spare forend with bands? :) ) The bore is immaculent. It is shiny as a new rifle.

I wish i knew about the duffle cut. It would probabally narrow down the mystery of the pk mark,but it along with forend and bands are all lost to history.
 
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