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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Beretta 4UT question Posted 6/04

type99

Hello...

What would be the "proper" holster to have to go with a Beretta 4UT pistol? As these were procured by the Germans, did the Germans have any holsters specifically ear-marked, or so labeled, for these weapons? Or, would any standard German issue holster intended for a .32 pistol be appropriate? Did the Germans often use the old Italian holsters made for these pistols in their field use?

Any advice would be most appreciated.

Gary

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Gary

Zman9mm
Gunboards Premium Member



124 Posts
Posted - 06/07/2004 : 03:23:09 AM
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Come to think about it, I have never seen a 4UT with a holster, EVER! I own 2 and have seen many but have never seen a holster with one.


type99
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
164 Posts
Posted - 06/07/2004 : 06:12:24 AM
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Hello Zman...

Actually, in my surfing around, I saw about 4 different Beretta 4UT rigs with holsters. Two of the rigs had the pistol pictured with Italian holsters. One pistol was Geco marked, not necessarily a 4UT, and was pictured with what looked like a standard German flap holster. Another was pictured with a similar German flap holster. This may or may not mean anything, but my guess is that these pistols were used with just about anything that they would fit into.

Cheers,
Gary

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Gary


Zman9mm
Gunboards Premium Member



124 Posts
Posted - 06/07/2004 : 6:02:34 PM
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Yeah, I’m guessing that they would use whatever they could get their hands during that period of the war!


Franchi
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
368 Posts
Posted - 06/08/2004 : 9:36:18 PM
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First the (4UT) is not a German marking, it is an Italian quality control marking and was used before the Germans were in Italy. Model 1935 (.32 cal) Berettas above serial number 500,000 could have been sold to the Germans, Italian Military, Commercial Dealers, even the Japanese Army. There are groups that were sold only to the Germans, if you give me your serial number I can tell you who might have bought your pistol.
...
German issue Berettas can be found in a variety of holsters. Since they are not marked specifically for the Beretta they can be hard to "ID". Once separated from the pistol, they look like a .32 cal. Walther PP, CZ27, Sauer, etc.
The easiest to spot (and cheapest to buy) is the Italian made green/grey German "PP" style breakaway. These were used by the Italians and Germans.
Some German issue holsters for the Beretta are:

1). Sauer 38H style marked "jhg 44" with "WaA41" on the closing strap, the Sauer 38H is marked "WaA286"

2). CZ 27 style with just the "WaA76" on the back of the holster, no Czech "P.Mod27" marking, no1941,1942, 1943, etc date, & no "CZ" logo trademark.

3). Same as #2 above but no markings except a German "RBNr. & number" on
the inside of the flap.

4). "PP" style with only "hsy" and no "WaA" These are the main German issue holsters for the Beretta. These holsters have been reported more than a few times as U.S. G.I. bring backs with Beretta pistols in them and had only Beretta "rub marks" (distinctive Beretta magazine finger extension and lanyard loop marks).

I believe in late 1943 to the end of the war the Germans started using most .32 caliber holsters as universal I could never understand why the Germans, earlier in the war, marked holsters for specific pistols, ie: Walther PP, Sauer 38H, Mauser HSc, etc when all these pistols would fit in the same size holster.
David Franchi



Zman9mm
Gunboards Premium Member



124 Posts
Posted - 06/09/2004 : 2:46:22 PM
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Ok Franchi, my 1935 (1944 4UT) is #5862XX and has the phosphate finish. Do you have any info on that one?


Franchi
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
368 Posts
Posted - 06/09/2004 : 10:07:35 PM
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Zman9mm,
Beretta pistol 5862xx was in a group of 65,000 (534000 to 599000) sold between Aug 1944 and Feb 1945 to the German Army Headquarters in Italy. So your pistol is German issue.
The closest pistols to yours with a letter from Beretta are #539585 sold Aug 1 1944 to Dieustelle (probably mis-spelled "Dienststelle") which is German Command Headquarters Italy and #598778 sold to the German Army Italy Feb. 13th 1945.

Does your pistol have the (4UT) stamped upside down? Does it have a flat base magazine?
David Franchi



Zman9mm
Gunboards Premium Member



124 Posts
Posted - 06/12/2004 : 5:56:01 PM
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The 4UT is right side up and the magazine has the finger rest. Do you know the serial number range for the Japanese order please?


Zman9mm
Gunboards Premium Member



124 Posts
Posted - 06/12/2004 : 6:07:27 PM
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Oh wait, I have one more question for you Franchi. I Have my eye on another 1935 4UT. The problem is the barrel has a different serial number on it than the one on the gun. The odd thing is that the serial number on the barrel is only 2 numbers away from the serial number on the gun. The gun has a 158 on it and the barrel has a 156 on it. The 6 is stamped in such a way that it “Kind of� looks like an 8, but it is definitely a 6. Could this have been a mistake done at the factory since the serial numbers are so close together? I find it highly unlikely that the barrel had been changed at a later date and would just “assume� it was done at the factory. Or could it have been a stamp/strike mistake on behalf of the line worker at Beretta.


Franchi
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
368 Posts
Posted - 06/12/2004 : 6:45:09 PM
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Zman9mm, Thanks for the additional info.
Normally the barrel has the last four digits of the serial.
I have seen lots of serial number mistakes on war-time Berettas, many have a mistake in the serial on the slide or frame but they are usually corrected by the "right" number being overstamped. I would say the mistake on the barrel is factory.

Possible Japanese M1935 pistols are in the range of 525,000 to 534,000. A letter from Beretta states these were sold to the German Army Headquarters in Italy and the Imperial Japanese Army. The "Japanese" pistols are somewhere in this range, don't know how many were sold to Japan or if they made it to Japan.
I have data on five pistols recorded in this range, two with letters from Beretta. All five pistols are marked with the (4UT) on the right tang, and the crown over lion proof on the left tang.
The "lettered" pistols are:
526879 Sold to Deustellle-Germany on 7th June 1944.
and
529473 sold to German Military Command located in Como Italy Aug. 29, 1944

Don't know if the Japanese pistols were marked any differently than the German issue pistols, it is possible the Japanese pistols had Italian commercial "PSF" markings or German commercial "Geco" etc. markings. It's not easy to find a pistol in this 10,000 serial range.
David Franchi

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Edited by - Franchi on 06/12/2004 7:04:07 PM


Zman9mm
Gunboards Premium Member



124 Posts
Posted - 06/12/2004 : 7:10:18 PM
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Great...so I am guessing that it is still a good piece to purchase! The finish on the gun is superb and I didn’t want the barrel to hurt the value later down the road. I sure do love these pistols!
 
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