[Edward Horton]

Whiterider

Think of skinny dipping in a cool river on a hot day (without crocs) below is a wallpaper wetting tray and some 25/75 BLO/Turpentine, let it soak overnight.

(Soaking in 25/75 BLO/Turpentine is my second choice if raw linseed is not available, you are looking for a deep penetrating "skin moisturizer")

 

[jrhead75]

Was there meant to be a washer under the king screw, as there wasn’t! by reckoning there should have been a collar and a washer??

All of my No.4s have a split washer under the king screw. Not so on the No.1, but the No.4 and No.5 should have one.

 

[tertle]

Ed what a great idea, wallpaper-hanging tray, nice, i simply cut the top of a plastic milk container and put the topwood in it but your idea is very cunning. owww did you get my email? i have been having issues with my dial up.....yes dial up, i refuse to pay for broadband with my ISP but i am getting very annoyed so i am going to find a substitute very soon!

i will try and find a split washer or something to mimic the missing washer.

now to try and upload my pics, i have used Tertle speak in the descriptions so please bear with my terminology in my learning curve

i will upload better photos from sisters place i think

 

[Edward Horton]

The No.1 and No.4 Enfield have only one bedding screw and the rear draws area acts as the “second missing screw”, if the wood of the fore stock shrinks you loose up pressure at the fore end tip. The forward trigger guard screws is the pivot point or fulcrum point of the fore stock and it acts like a kids Teeter Totter.

Below is a composite photo of an Australian SMLE and the bedding diagram from the Canadian Marksman on bedding the No.4 for competition. Both have shims added to prevent the rear of the fore stock from moving upward (loose up pressure at fore end tip)

Wood shrinkage is your enemy and these added shims are your best friend, the Armourer would replace a shrunken fore stock, fore stocks don’t grow on trees so we add shims to compensate for shrinkage.

 

[whiterider]

from the looks of your pictures.....

Your forend may already be 'too modified' to return to stock without a heck of a lot of inlaid woodwork.....takes time and not to put too fine a point on it much skill.

I'd be inclined to get hold of one of the commercially available 'fiberglass bedding kits' then reproduce the under chamber bearing and the centre band bearing in fiberglass. The pics of the draws area seem to indicate that the 'recoil lug' bearings could be too far to the rear and may not be contacting the metal at all??? Are there marks on the face of the recoil lug bearing area to indicate they're bearing??? or not?? That area may need attention also.


after you've 'glassed' the knox form and centre bearing I'd use shims over the draws to get the right bearing pressure. (refer to Edwards sticky about the 'Canadian' methods...)

So all is not lost..I bet it can be made to shoot really well....its just not 'as issued' any more and would require a great deal of work to restore it to that condition....if originality is a fetish for you its possible to buy and fit a new forend...

 

[tertle]

the forestock is going to be an interesting issue, i measured up the rebated area in the middle of the forestock, in line with the middle band and it measures 1 1/2 inchs, (in keeping with mr Hortons diagram, i use metric!) so i am wondering if someone has already started the process??

As with the woodwork and the skill level needed to rectify issues, i am a lucky man, my fiancé is a joiner by trade and she has even adopted a rifle or two of mine so i am sure i can get her to "help" in this project. you should see all the lovely Rimu and other wood we have sitting at home as off cuts.... some very lovely projects on the go

i am at a loss to see if the there is any marking to indicate the lugs are touching at all, have a person (ex-armourer) who i might take it to to confirm. but will re read Mr Hortons advice re the Canadian sticky

Just off down the range to put new foresight on my LB and adjust it, that one is a new purchase an needs some attention too! God i love days where i can get off to the range and just tinker

Tertle

 

[whiterider]

about those 'recoil lugs'

Easy way mate. Get some children's modelling clay (or similar) , put a tiny bit on each 'recoil lug' surface on the forend, bolt it up, take it down then see if the lugs have made an imprint in the modelling clay..if not..then those surfaces in the forend need building up till they do.

Yes, as you say someone has already 'started' on making a slot in the forend for a 'centre bedding block'.common thing in the days of using them as target rifles.

Sure, if you have someone who's good at and likes woodwork go at it the 'traditional' way...cutting little bits of wood and inletting them...but on the other hand if you just want to get the thing shooting and shooting well in minimum time and drama I'd go for fiberglass every time....then again....I'm known as a heathen, pagan.....vegemite opponent, holocaust denier.....member of the flat earth society.....member of the Darth VAder for president society....the list goes on and on....

 

[tertle]

Clever!

what a bloody clever idea, i tell you this has been a very worth while project just from the angle of what i have learnt

i will swing by the nieces and nephews place, get them to mr Hortons test a grab their play dough!

ive always been a marmite fan myself, but hey

 

[whiterider]

for God's sake Tertle

dont eat those sandwich spreads...you may suffer hallucinatioins....get an attitude as bad as Mr. Hortons....or worse still Dr.Beers....

Then before you know it you'll be buying every Enfield and bayonet you see....you'll be in inmassive debt...divorced.....children will leave.....sheriffs deputies re possess your house....

Bloody V###@@@###te...the curse of mankind....

 

[Edward Horton]

“My fiancé is a joiner by trade and she has even adopted a rifle or two of mine”

Tell your fiancé its pay back time and to study the photo below!

 

[whiterider]

yes Tertle

Looks like someone has 'prepped' your forend for all the competition mods but never gotten around to doing them. and probably excessive clearance ( if there is any) between the recoil shoulders on the action and their faces on the forend have contributed to the forend splitting that you noticed at the rear of the fore-end.

Mate...buy the fiberglass and let your fiance use those skilful, soft smooth and loving hands for something else altogether....jeeeezzz way to hot in here..I'd better stop typing....

Oh yeah....very nice pics of the fore-end...how about some of the fiance????? Edward's always showing us pics of his.....(dream dream dream Edward......)

 

[tertle]

whiterider, better still mate have a look at the photo at the bottom !

Did the 15 yard sighter that looked ok and thought i would put the range out to 100 meters, had the rear apertures sights on the Long branch set at 200 yards and fired three rounds to confirm MPI

I hadn’t worked out where the gun clubs spotting scope was so i did the old wander up the range wondering where these rounds had landed, as i approached i couldnt see any holes in the backing paper or target, so imagine my surprise to see these results! glad i was the only one there!!

i dont expect the current work on the savage to be anything like this and sadly i dont think i will ever reproduce it but it was a great day at the range

will have to go pinch play dough tomorrow and start on the next step!

cheers

tertle


GRRrrrr again i have issues with uploading....... will turn it all off and start again and try to repost

 

[whiterider]

came out ok....

Tertle...damn good shooting. Hey, I can just see the headlines in the Christchurch Gazette...

'Crazed gunman attacks child and steals playdough...police lay vegemite baits in an effort to catch the offender'.......

 

[tertle]

yeah you should have seen my reaction when i got to the target!

i will do the dough thing today, and go to a hobby shop for something suitable for shimming,

Mr Horton, one of your pictures showed what appeared to be a screwed in piece of copper, i take it you slightly counter sunk the copper and i would assume you drilled the holes for the screw.

at the end of the forestock where the wood should meet the reciever, i should shim there too to ensure a better contact?

also the washer for the king screw does anyone know the origanal sizeing?

and whiterider found another pic of the shooting i am sure you will like

 

[whiterider]

I'd recommend...

ya get closer....ya missed the jar.....

 

[Edward Horton]

The copper blocks you see in the photo are of an Australian Lithgow SMLE and the copper blocks were standard and installed on Australian Coachwood fore stocks.

What is more important are the added shims in both photos at the rear of the draws area that prevents upward movement, if the rear of the fore stock moves upward, up pressure at the fore end tip is lost.

NOTE: Any No.4 Enfield delivered to Holland and Holland for conversion to the No.4 (T) sniper rifle was sent back to their owning organization if the rifle did not have the required 2 to 7 pounds of up pressure at the fore end tip.

Also shimming the draws area does not have to be limited to the forward draws area, if you have .050 total shrinkage .025 shims could be added to both ends of the draws.

Extremely thin plywood can be obtained at hobby shops that deal with RC model aircraft, 1/64, 1/32 etc also brass sheets from .005 and upward can be had.

The Indians used rubber at the very rear of the fore stock/draws area to tighten the fore stock (Contact area at rear of fore stock and receiver socket)

Center bedding was tried on the No.4 (T) but no improvement in accuracy over stock military bedding was noted.

A standard Remington 700 has 3 to 9 pounds of up pressure at the fore end tip to ensure accuracy on their production rifles. Note, up pressure on both these rifles is very important and the barrels were never designed to be free floated.

The attached photos below are from E.G.B. Reynolds “The Lee Enfield Rifle”.

 

[Tyler_S]

Thanks a bunch for all that info, Ed. I've been looking for a way to shim up my No4 Mk1 without having to bed the rifle.

A few questions though:

My 'draws' seem to be uneven, the right draw being slightly forward of the left draw, to the point where the wood has mushroomed somewhat. Like a wooden peg-end hit with a hammer.

Should I trim the area ever so lightly with a chisel to even up the draws?

Will wood glue work for holding the brass shims in place? Or should something stronger be used?

Will adding a cork sheet to the mid fore-end and tip improve things?

My brass pin ends from my hand guards are lightly touching the barrel, how much can I grind away from the pins before they come out? Should I shim the area between the hand guards and the fore-stock instead?

Thanks.

 

[tertle]

Ed, i have to wait till tuesday to get a chance to start the shimming process, better halfs father has a workshop where he makes model trains, jetboats etc.....plenty of tools and rather a clever man as well,

i had a thought of putting it all back together since i getting the RLO into the wood and seeing what difference that alone has made, i am curious, i will even see if i can get a proper king screw washer by then as well. i will post a range report, depends mind you on work and weather!

i will have an extra buttered toast with marmite for whiterider prior to the range

Ed, your 25 yard rectangle target, point of aim is at very bottom of the rectangle?

cheers

tertle

 

[Edward Horton]

Ed, i have to wait till tuesday to get a chance to start the shimming process, better halfs father has a workshop where he makes model trains, jetboats etc.....plenty of tools and rather a clever man as well,

i had a thought of putting it all back together since i getting the RLO into the wood and seeing what difference that alone has made, i am curious, i will even see if i can get a proper king screw washer by then as well. i will post a range report, depends mind you on work and weather!

i will have an extra buttered toast with marmite for whiterider prior to the range

Ed, your 25 yard rectangle target, point of aim is at very bottom of the rectangle?

cheers

tertle

Tyler

During WWII and after the war one of the biggest problems was “stocking up” caused by improperly seasoned or dried fore ends. In 1946 it was reported that 30% of all fore ends were being thrown away at the British factories due to the poor quality of the wood.

At one time your Enfield fore stock was bedded properly and both the forward lug areas of the draws were touching evenly. Now the wood has shrunk to the point your hand guard rivets are rubbing the “TOP” of the barrel, which is the start of “down pressure” when actually the fore end tip should be pushing upward and have 2 to 7 pounds of up pressure.

The fore stock wood dried up and shrunk and this allowed the very rear of the stock to move upward, when the rear of the fore stock moves upward the fore end tip moves downward. This is why your hand guard rivets are rubbing the barrel at the front of the stock and placing cork in the barrel channel would be adding insult to injury to the problem.



“Should I trim the area ever so lightly with a chisel to even up the draws?”

NO, first check and find out why one side of the forward draws lug area is getting hammered harder than the other side, they were both evenly touching at one time.

“Will wood glue work for holding the brass shims in place? Or should something stronger be used?”

The original shimming material used was very thin Aborite (Formica) and I think they were originally held in place with varnish. I made Formica shims and super glued them in place after fitting each shim one at a time. The thickness of these shims controls the centering of the barrel in the fore end barrel channel (Standard military bedding). The Australian copper blocks are screwed in place and were used on their Coach wood stocks. Any thin hard material can be used for shimming, beer cans, brass sheets and birch plywood from hobby stores.

“Will adding a cork sheet to the mid fore-end and tip improve things?”

NO, when the fore end draws area is adjusted properly it is wedged tightly between the recoil lugs and the receiver socket, and thus pushing up at the fore end tip.

“My brass pin ends from my hand guards are lightly touching the barrel, how much can I grind away from the pins before they come out? Should I shim the area between the hand guards and the fore-stock instead?”

You should not grind the hand guard rivets, with the proper up pressure at the fore end tip the rivets should not be rubbing, BUT it may also require that the hand guards be shimmed and raised to prevent the rubbing. (Who knows what the wood shrinkage has done and you must compensate for it or replace the offending wood)

Go back and download all the manuals from my sticky at the top of the page and the Canadian No.4 manual from Euroarms web site and then study the bedding material. NOTE: The No.5 drawing shows .020 clearance between the receiver and the fore end, if the wood is touching the receiver it could be pushing it “off center” and causing one of your problems. Post some photos of your fore end, it’s hard to play Doctor if you can’t see the patient.

 

[Edward Horton]

Ed, i have to wait till tuesday to get a chance to start the shimming process, better halfs father has a workshop where he makes model trains, jetboats etc.....plenty of tools and rather a clever man as well,

i had a thought of putting it all back together since i getting the RLO into the wood and seeing what difference that alone has made, i am curious, i will even see if i can get a proper king screw washer by then as well. i will post a range report, depends mind you on work and weather!

i will have an extra buttered toast with marmite for whiterider prior to the range

Ed, your 25 yard rectangle target, point of aim is at very bottom of the rectangle?

cheers

tertle

Both 25 yard sight in targets are for a 6:00 hold or the very bottom of circle or rectangle.

If you are going for a center hold you well need other targets, see photo below. (And your older than dirt, photo from 1940 Parker Hale Catalog)