BCD 43 (more photos)

5470 Views 24 Replies 11 Participants Last post by vaughn99, May 13, 2010

moosedog

Discussion Starter · May 2, 2010 (Edited)

I picked up a very nice matching BCD 43 yesterday. Everything matches except the stock which is a nice lamenated one. Vet bring back with no import marks.
When I broke it down, I noticed that under side of the barrel was marked "Herm Schufider" 8X57 JS.
I would think that that is the barrel maker and the caliber, but what is the JS?
This is only the 4th K-98 I have ever owned so I don't know if this is normal stampings or not for a military gun.

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Bill In Indiana

· #2 · May 2, 2010

Moose.... This underside marking is not normal for WW2 German. You should really post some pics of the details and markings on this one to get a good idea what this rifle is all about. The JS is part of the caliber designation. This sounds like it was rebarreled or has some kind of commercial barrel. Again pics will help greatly.

moosedog

Discussion Starter · #3 · May 2, 2010

2

Here are a couple of photos. The barrel is marked 41 BCD and is serial number stamped the same, 8768.

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Hambone

· #4 · May 3, 2010

Need more pics of the various markings on the barrel and numbers. Could be a "wartime commercial", could be a postwar. The calibre designation and gunsmith/builder name is commercial.

Kurz

· #5 · May 3, 2010

I am by NOOOOOOO means an expert and I apologize in advance if I am incorrect, but I dug around a little bit trying to refresh my memory on the the whole 'JS' vs 'IS' thing... The stamp you have brought to our attention certainly isn't wartime and could be just an importer designation for the caliber. Also, pay attention to any numbers that may form a 'band' so to speak close to where the barrel enters the receiver - although from that pic angle it doesn't look like anything is there. Anyway, if there is something present, there are people on here that can interpret those codes right off the top of their head. Those 'bands' will tell you if it is a wartime rebarrel. Take a look at this attached pic for an example of those barrel numbers I mentioned. I have an S/147 code that was rebarreled in 1939. Anyway, here is a little information on the 'JS' and 'IS.' Look at this little excerpt from Wikipedia...

The American standardizing body for sporting cartridges SAAMI designates the 7.92x57mm IS latter cartridge as the 8 mm Mauser, also known as 8x57mm JS. However, the SAAMI pressure limitation for this cartridge is taken from the older 7.92x57mm I and is limited to (Piezo SAAMI Pmax = 241.317 MPa [35,000 psi]) or 37,500 CUP. This is done for safety, in case the modern cartridge is fired in an 'I' bore rifle that has a narrower throat diameter, to avoid excess pressure in that area. European manufacturers generally only load to the lower pressure limit for 'I' bore cartridges; and the US based Manufacturer Hornady followed their lead in their (now discontinued) EuroSpec brand 8x57 JS load.
The letter 'J' is actually not a 'J' at all, but an 'I' for Infanterie (infantry). However, at the time the German printers were using a typeface in which the letter 'I' looked like the modern 'J'. The letter 'S' stands for Spitzgeschoß (pointed bullet), and the English word "spitzer" is derived from this German term.
To avoid potentially serious accidents, it is important to distinguish clearly between cartridges loaded for these two different bullet diameters, and only fire them in appropriately chambered/barrelled rifles.
The 7.92x57mm ("8 mm Mauser") and 7x57mm ("7 mm Mauser") cartridges are not interchangeable; attempts to do so may cause damage or potential injury.

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moosedog

Discussion Starter · #6 · May 3, 2010

Heres another photo of which I had a hard time taking, camera is not cooperating.
The bigger number coming off the right side prior to the 41 BCD "129" in pretty big letters. It doesn't have alot of smaller markings like shown in your photo.
Another clue might be that it does not have any slots milled in the front sight base for a hood.

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Bill In Indiana

· #7 · May 3, 2010

How about a picture of the top of the barrel, top of reciever right and left sides of barrel and reciever. Numbers on bolt, and and pics of the barrel band numbers, and any markings on the stock.

moosedog

Discussion Starter · #8 · May 3, 2010 (Edited)

5

ok, never acuse me of being a photograher. Heres the photos Bill. Thanks for all your help.
There are no numbers on the stock. Only what appears to be an old ink stamp on the pistol grip.
There are not alot of markings on this gun in comparison to several others that I have.

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Scott B

· #9 · May 4, 2010 (Edited)

Based on the pics it appears that it may be a wartime commercial. The receiver is marked with a Zella-Mehlis style E/N commercial proof on the right side and there do not appear to have ever been a final acceptance proof on top of the receiver or typical Gustloff miitary inspection glyphs/markings on the bottom. From my view the bbl pics are not detailed enough to indicate if there is also a Zella-Mehlis style E/N commercial or assembly date present but there are obvious Zella-Mehlis links. Bolt also shows some evidence of commercial numbering convention but would like to see if it is also E/N proofed on the bottom flat. I would have to check my records but I think that the name indicated has appeared on other wartime commercials.

Scott

Bill In Indiana

· #10 · May 4, 2010

The pics help a lot. But as Scott indicated a couple more are in order. I think Scott is on the correct path in suspecting it is a war time commercial rifle. Far more unusual to find than standard production rifles. Looks like you may have a real winner. Congrats!

moosedog

Discussion Starter · #11 · May 5, 2010

I will definately take some more pictures this week. I value your information gentleman.
Just a little history on this one, I picked it up at a pawn shop where it was taken in and then the poor fellow couldn't come up with the money to get it back. The shop wrote it up and priced it the same as a RC rifle, of which they have others in stock.
Seems like alot of people are turning in some nice WWll stuff up here in Michigan with the economy being so bad.
The last four times I visited this shop. I walked out with a gun.

vaughn99

· #12 · May 5, 2010

nice commercial BCD 43 left over receiver made in 2-44 not many of these out there nice clean E/N on receiver under bolt handle should be a diamond proof.

later
vaughn

SimsonSuhl

· #13 · May 5, 2010

What I find most intriguing on this rifle is the barrel.. it "looks" like a bcd made barrel with a "1941" date?

Extremely odd if you ask me, but seemingly correct? Man if this is true this shoots a 88 mm shell right through the theories on Gustloff Weimar's barrel making... before this showed up the earliest documented had been 1943 dated, and though this barrel, on this rifle, was probably a reject (like almost all 1943 dated bcd barrels) it shows the probability is they were actually making barrels this early.

Truly a mini-revelation if this barrel is what it seems to be.. try and do more images of the barrel as that is where your questions will be answered. (most interested if there is any waffenamt on the barrel, if a reject it won't but curious all the same!)

Kursk

· #14 · May 5, 2010

What is up with the shroud and safety? If this is a war time commercial then it would be safe to assume that there may be other commercials or sporters out there with '41, '42 or ? barrels by bcd? Obvisously they did something with the rejected barrels so they must have went somewhere. Maybe scrapped out for more steel?

moosedog

Discussion Starter · #15 · May 6, 2010

7

Here's several more photos that I took the other day that may give some more detail. It rained today and I couldn't get it outdoors.
The bottom of the bolt I took tonight indoors, hope it shows enough detail.
As far as the barrel, I can't find any other stampings other than what is shown. There's not a lot really.
If anyone in SE Michigan is going to be at the Michigan Antique Arms Show in Novi Michigan on May 15th, give me a bump on a PM and I can bring this rifle with me so someone can check it out further.
I'm going to ask a rather naive question but how would they get away with making commercial rifles during a war effort?
Thanks. Moosedog

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Pisgah

· #16 · May 6, 2010

moosedog said:
I'm going to ask a rather naive question but how would they get away with making commercial rifles during a war effort?
Thanks. Moosedog

Think commercial in the sense that it was assembled outside of the German military system (Heereswaffenamt). It doesn't mean that anyone was peddling them in local gun shops. Two possible reasons for commercial assembly were 1) utilization of all available production capacity (the Germans had a chronic shortage of rifles). 2) a method of procuring a military rifle outside of military channels--perhaps for arming non-military guards at a factory or something similar. One observation that I have frequently heard is that when found, commercial Kar.98k's tend to be in nice shape, suggesting that they weren't taken from the battlefield.

falmike

· #17 · May 6, 2010

Moosedog,

Can it be that the Manufacturer stamp actually reads Herm. Schneider, just double struck or thrice? I was Googling around and found references to a Herman Schneider from Zella Mehlis.

Mike

falmike

· #18 · May 6, 2010

Here are some searches for Mr. Schneider if this is the case:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&rls=com.microsoft%3A*%3AIE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7GGIE_en&q=Herman+Schneider+zella+mehlis+buchsenmacher&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...QBSgA&q=Herman+Schneider+zella+mehlis&spell=1

Mike

moosedog

Discussion Starter · #19 · May 6, 2010

This is a clearer shot of the name. I believe your right. The "E" is only partially stamped.

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Gewehr455

· #20 · May 7, 2010

Nice example. I also have a Herm. Schnfider assembled rifle that is close in serial number to your gun. Is your stock serial numbered? What you have shown compares well to my rifle. Definately a wartime assembled commercial 98k.

Jim

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