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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
A request was made for a copy of the BATF(E) letter regarding which Makarovs are C&R. Here it is, courtesy of Arcom the First.

SlimTim

ATF_LtrMak3.jpg
 

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Discussion Starter #2

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Discussion Starter #3
Letter from BATF regarding how long you must keep your bound book.

SlimTim
 

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Discussion Starter #5
10:18 (7 minutes after your post) and I got it just fine. Here's the text:

October 18, 1996
From: Jxxx Rxxx


BATF
Attn: Curios & Relics
650 Massachusetts Ave. NW
Washington, DC 20226-0013

Dear Sirs, I was talking with some fellow friends who have Curio and Relics licenses, and there seems to be a great deal of confusion over one aspect of this license. I would like to get this clarified in a written response from you, so that I can provide my friends with a copy of the ''real'' answer to these questions.

The question concerns what requirements there might be to record purchase and sale of curio and relic firearms that were acquired before receiving the C&R license or that are purchased within the state where the C&R license is not required.


* Once the license is received, do all previously owned C&R guns in your possession have to be logged in the bound book? -- NO! (A) --
* If a C&R gun that was acquired before the license was received is then subsequently sold, does that transaction have to be logged in the bound book? --NO! (A) --
* Once in possession of the C&R license, do C&R guns that are not purchased through interstate mail have to be logged in the bound bok? ie: If I buy a C&R gun from a local gun store, where the C&R license is not necessary, does that gun need to be logged in? -- YES! (B) --
* If the above C&R gun, purchased locally without the C&R license, is subsequently sold, does that transaction have to be logged n the bound book? -- YES! (B) --
There is one other question of a different nature that also seems to besurrounded by confusion. Since the C&R license is not for purposes of ''dealing'' in firearms, what restrictions are there upon selling pieces from your collection?

* If I purchase a gun through the mail which turns out to be of such poor quality that I don't want it, can I sell it? -- YES! (C) (D) --
* Do I have to hold it for a year first? -- NO! (C) (D) --
*If I find a higher quality rifle which duplicates one I already have, can I sll the lower quality rifle? -- YES! (C) (D) --
* Is there some limit on the number of trades or sales per year? -- NO! (C) (D) --

I've checked the Federal Firearms Regulation Reference Guide for answers to these questions, but could not find anything that addressed these issues. Thank you in advance for your assistance.

Sincerely,
Jxxx Rxxx


*******************

The BATF replied:
Department of the Treasury
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
Washington, DC 20226
Dear Mr. Rxxx,
This is in response to your letter dated October 18, 1996, requesting information concerning the acquisition and disposition of curio and relic firearms.
In response to your questions, we feel the following information will resolve your areas of concern and confusion:
(A) Current regulations do not require licensed collectors to record in their bound book firearms acquired prior to obtaining their license. Therefore, subsequent sales of the previously acquired firearms would require no entry in your bound book records.
(B) If, after obtaining a license, a firearm is acquired for your personal collection, it must be entered into your bound book whether or not you use your collectors' license to purchase the weapon. See 27CFR 178.125(f). Any subsequent sale would have to be entered in your bound book records.
(C) You may immediately dispose of a firearm to a lawful buyer. The length of time you retain it is immaterial. The determining factor is under what circumstances it was acquired. If the firearm was acquired to enhance your personal collection, and you decide you do not like or want it, the length of time and amount it is sold for do not matter. However, if you acquire guns for the purpose of resale, for profit, you would be engaged in a firearms dealing business and would need a dealers' license. As you are aware, the definition of a dealer is ''A person who devotes time, attention and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principle objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such a term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.'' Therefore, the purpose of the transactions would be the determining factor in whether you were dealing in firearms or merely enhancing your personal collection. The mere fact that you make a profit on the sale of a firearm from your collection would not mean you were dealing in firearms. Repeated transactions which are motivated by the desire to generate profit or income rather than enhancing your collection would indicate you were dealing in furearms, not collecting. If a collector acquires curios or relics for the purpose of sale rather than to enhance a collection, the collector should be a licensed dealer in firearms.The sole intent and purpose f the collectors' license is to enable a firearms collector to obtain a curio or relic from outside his State of residence.
(D) Disposing of personal firearms for the purpose of upgrading a collection is not engaging in a firearms business.

We trust this has been responsive to your request. If we can be of further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Sincerely yours,
Charles Bartlett
Acting Chief
Firearms and Explosives Operations Branch
--------------6F2B21496506940BFFB96015--


************************
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Regs on Mailing Pistols

Not ATF, but USPS. Definitive word: not for C&Rs.

http://www.usps.com/cpim/ftp/pubs/pub52.pdf

Use this link (above) to reference. Below is the text from above link in a jumbled mess. Copying from PDF doesn't work well.

SlimTim

Section 43 (page 63).

43 Firearms
431 Definitions
431.1 Firearm
A firearm is defined as any device (including a starter gun) that is designed,
or may readily be converted, to expel a projectile by an explosion, a spring,
or other mechanical action, or by air or gas pressure with sufficient force to
be used as a weapon.
431.2 Handgun
Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the
person (for example, short-barreled shotguns and short-barreled rifles) are
defined as handguns. The following definitions apply:
a. Pistol or Revolver. A pistol or revolver is a handgun designed to be
fired by the use of a single hand.
b. Short-Barreled Rifle. A rifle having one or more barrels less than 16
inches long is defined as a short-barreled rifle. This includes any
weapon made from a rifle (by alteration or modification) resulting in an
overall length of less than 26 inches.
c. Short-Barreled Shotgun. A shotgun having one or more barrels less
than 18 inches long is defined as a short-barreled shotgun. This
includes any weapon made from a shotgun (by alteration or
modification) resulting in an overall length of less than 26 inches.
431.3 Antique Firearm
An antique firearm (including those with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion
cap, or similar type of ignition system) is any firearm manufactured in or
431.4 Hazardous, Restricted, and Perishable Mail
64 Publication 52
before 1898, or any replica of such a firearm, that meets either of the
following conditions:
a. It is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional
centerfire fixed ammunition.
b. It uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, which is no
longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available
through ordinary commercial trade channels.
431.4 Rifles and Shotguns
A rifle is a shoulder weapon having a barrel that is 16 inches or more in
length. A shotgun has a barrel of 18 inches or more in length. Rifles and
shotguns have an overall length of 26 inches or greater and cannot be
capable of being concealed on a person.
431.5 Licensed Manufacturer/Licensed Dealer
A manufacturer of firearms or a bona fide dealer in firearms is one duly
licensed by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF), U.S.
Department of the Treasury, under the Gun Control Act of 1968.
432 Mailability
432.1 General
The following conditions apply:
a. Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on
the person (referred to as handguns) are nonmailable in the domestic
mail except as permitted in Exhibit 432.1 and DMM C024.1.0.
b. The disassembled parts of a handgun or other type of nonmailable
firearm that can be readily reassembled as a weapon are nonmailable
except as permitted in Exhibit 432.1 and DMM C024.1.0 or C024.2.0.
c. Unloaded antique firearms sent as curios or museum pieces are
generally permitted as specified in Exhibit 432.1 and DMM C024.2.0.
d. Unloaded rifles and shotguns may be mailed if the mailer fully complies
with the Gun Control Act of 1968 (Public Law 90-618) and 18 U.S.C.
921. The mailer may be required to establish, by opening the parcel or
by written certification, that the gun is unloaded and not excluded from
mailing because of the restrictions in 431.2b and c.
432.2 PS Form 1508
PS Form 1508, Statement by Shipper of Firearms, must be completed by
each firearm manufacturer or dealer who deposits firearms for mailing. The
form must be filed with the postmaster of the post office of mailing.
Restricted Matter 432.2
July 1999 65
Exhibit 432.1
Mailability Requirements for Firearms
Handguns may be mailed by a licensed manufacturer or dealer, an authorized federal agent, or an authorized state,
territory, or district agent ONLY when addressed to one of the following addressee categories for use in official
duties:
Addressee Affidavit Requirements
a. Officer of Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard, Marine
Corps, or organized reserve corps.
b. Officer of National Guard or militia of a state, district, or
territory.
Mailable with affidavit signed by addressee and
certificate signed by commanding officer.
c. Officer of the federal government or a state, district, or
territory whose official duty is to serve warrants of
arrest or commitment.
d. USPS employees specifically authorized by the chief
postal inspector.
e. Officer or employee of a U.S. enforcement agency.
Mailable with affidavit signed by addressee and
certificate signed by head of agency employing the
addressee.
f. Watchman engaged in guarding federal, state, district,
or territory property.
Mailable with affidavit signed by addressee and
certificate signed by chief clerk of department, bureau,
or branch of government agency employing the
addressee.
g. Purchasing agent or other designated member of an
agency employing officers and personnel included in
c, d, or e above.
Mailable with affidavit signed by addressee and
certificate signed by the head of agency stating the
firearm is to be used by an officer or employee cited in
c, d, or e of the opposite column.
Unloaded Handgun
Mailer must be licensed manufacturer or dealer mailing to another licensed
manufacturer or dealer.
Addressee is FBI (or its Director) or scientific lab or crime detection bureau of any
agency whose members are federal law enforcement officers, or state, district, or
territory officers authoirzed to serve warrants of arrest or commitment.
Manufacturers or dealers must complete PS Form 1508, Statement by Shipper of
Firearms, and file with the postmaster.
Postmasters may forward an unsatisfactory mailer statement to their RCSC for a ruling.
Unloaded Rifle or Shotgun
Short-barrelled rifles or shotguns that can be concealed on the person are
nonmailable.
Mailer must comply with Gun Control Act of 1968 and with state and local laws.
USPS may require mailer to open parcel or give written certification that
weapon is unloaded and not concealable.
Registered mail service is recommended
Unloaded Antique Firearm
Unloaded antique firearms sent as curios or museum pieces are acceptable
for mailing.
432.3 Hazardous, Restricted, and Perishable Mail
66 Publication 52
432.3 Packaging and Marking
No markings of any kind that indicate the nature of the contents may be
placed on the outside wrapper or container of any mailpiece containing
firearms. Mailable matter must be properly and securely packaged within the
general packaging requirements in DMM C010.
433 Mailer Responsibility
Even though certain types of firearms are permitted to be mailed within the
provisions of the postal law in 18 U.S.C. 1715, it is the mailer’s responsibility
to comply with all federal and state regulations and local ordinances affecting
the movement of firearms.
434 Legal Opinions on Mailing Firearms
Postmasters are not authorized to give opinions on the legality of any
shipment of rifles or shotguns. Mailers should be referred to the nearest
regional ATF office for further advice. See 435 and Exhibit 435.
435 Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF)
Exhibit 435 lists the locations of the Department of the Treasury’s regional
ATF offices.
Exhibit 435
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms Regional Offices
Office Area Served
North Atlantic Region
6 WORLD TRADE CENTER SIXTH FLOOR
NEW YORK NY 10048-0622
212-264-2328
Connecticut, Maine, Massachusetts, New
Hampshire, New York, Rhode Island, Vermont
841 CHESTNUT BUILDING THIRD FLOOR
PHILADELPHIA PA 19107-4403
215-597-4107
Delaware, Maryland, New Jersey,
Pennsylvania
Southeast Region
2600 CENTURY PARKWAY RM 430
ATLANTA GA 30345-3104
404-679-5130
Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Mississippi, North
Carolina, Puerto Rico, South Carolina,
Tennessee, Virgin Islands
Midwest Region
550 MAIN STREET
CINCINNATI OH 45202-3263
513-684-3334
District of Columbia, Indiana, Kentucky,
Michigan, Ohio, Utah, Virginia, West Virginia
300 SOUTH RIVERSIDE PLZ STE 310
CHICAGO IL 60606-6613
312-353-1967
Arkansas, Colorado, Illinois, Iowa, Kansas,
Louisiana, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska,
New Mexico, North Dakota, Oklahoma, South
Dakota, Texas, Wisconsin, Wyoming
Western Region
221 MAIN STREET 11TH FLOOR
SAN FRANCISCO CA 94105-1927
415-744-9419
Alaska, Arizona, California, Guam, Hawaii,
Idaho, Montana, Nevada, Oregon,
Washington
Restricted Matter 443.1
July 1999 67
436 Nonmailable Firearms Found in the Mails
Nonmailable firearms discovered in the mailstream must be immediately
reported in accordance with POM 139.117.
 

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letters

Not that I doubt your typing skills at all, but it would be great to have a copy of the origional letter.(the link is dead) Good stuff. The part about not logging sales of pre-license C & R's is contrary to everything I've ever read or been told. Always best to go to the source.
thanks,

10:18 (7 minutes after your post) and I got it just fine. Here's the text:

October 18, 1996
From: Jxxx Rxxx


BATF
Attn: Curios & Relics
650 Massachusetts Ave. NW
Washington, DC 20226-0013

Dear Sirs, I was talking with some fellow friends who have Curio and Relics licenses, and there seems to be a great deal of confusion over one aspect of this license. I would like to get this clarified in a written response from you, so that I can provide my friends with a copy of the ''real'' answer to these questions.

The question concerns what requirements there might be to record purchase and sale of curio and relic firearms that were acquired before receiving the C&R license or that are purchased within the state where the C&R license is not required.


* Once the license is received, do all previously owned C&R guns in your possession have to be logged in the bound book? -- NO! (A) --
* If a C&R gun that was acquired before the license was received is then subsequently sold, does that transaction have to be logged in the bound book? --NO! (A) --
* Once in possession of the C&R license, do C&R guns that are not purchased through interstate mail have to be logged in the bound bok? ie: If I buy a C&R gun from a local gun store, where the C&R license is not necessary, does that gun need to be logged in? -- YES! (B) --
* If the above C&R gun, purchased locally without the C&R license, is subsequently sold, does that transaction have to be logged n the bound book? -- YES! (B) --
There is one other question of a different nature that also seems to besurrounded by confusion. Since the C&R license is not for purposes of ''dealing'' in firearms, what restrictions are there upon selling pieces from your collection?

* If I purchase a gun through the mail which turns out to be of such poor quality that I don't want it, can I sell it? -- YES! (C) (D) --
* Do I have to hold it for a year first? -- NO! (C) (D) --
*If I find a higher quality rifle which duplicates one I already have, can I sll the lower quality rifle? -- YES! (C) (D) --
* Is there some limit on the number of trades or sales per year? -- NO! (C) (D) --

I've checked the Federal Firearms Regulation Reference Guide for answers to these questions, but could not find anything that addressed these issues. Thank you in advance for your assistance.

Sincerely,
Jxxx Rxxx


*******************

The BATF replied:
Department of the Treasury
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
Washington, DC 20226
Dear Mr. Rxxx,
This is in response to your letter dated October 18, 1996, requesting information concerning the acquisition and disposition of curio and relic firearms.
In response to your questions, we feel the following information will resolve your areas of concern and confusion:
(A) Current regulations do not require licensed collectors to record in their bound book firearms acquired prior to obtaining their license. Therefore, subsequent sales of the previously acquired firearms would require no entry in your bound book records.
(B) If, after obtaining a license, a firearm is acquired for your personal collection, it must be entered into your bound book whether or not you use your collectors' license to purchase the weapon. See 27CFR 178.125(f). Any subsequent sale would have to be entered in your bound book records.
(C) You may immediately dispose of a firearm to a lawful buyer. The length of time you retain it is immaterial. The determining factor is under what circumstances it was acquired. If the firearm was acquired to enhance your personal collection, and you decide you do not like or want it, the length of time and amount it is sold for do not matter. However, if you acquire guns for the purpose of resale, for profit, you would be engaged in a firearms dealing business and would need a dealers' license. As you are aware, the definition of a dealer is ''A person who devotes time, attention and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principle objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such a term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.'' Therefore, the purpose of the transactions would be the determining factor in whether you were dealing in firearms or merely enhancing your personal collection. The mere fact that you make a profit on the sale of a firearm from your collection would not mean you were dealing in firearms. Repeated transactions which are motivated by the desire to generate profit or income rather than enhancing your collection would indicate you were dealing in furearms, not collecting. If a collector acquires curios or relics for the purpose of sale rather than to enhance a collection, the collector should be a licensed dealer in firearms.The sole intent and purpose f the collectors' license is to enable a firearms collector to obtain a curio or relic from outside his State of residence.
(D) Disposing of personal firearms for the purpose of upgrading a collection is not engaging in a firearms business.

We trust this has been responsive to your request. If we can be of further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Sincerely yours,
Charles Bartlett
Acting Chief
Firearms and Explosives Operations Branch
--------------6F2B21496506940BFFB96015--


************************
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
The site is hosted by geocities and use to regularly exceed its bandwidth limit and be taken off line. I'm not sure if that's what has happened or if it's been abandoned, I heard the author is now a Buddhist monk.

The original letter was never available on the website. The above is cut and pasted from the linked website. Put the link in the searchbar at http://internetarchive.org and see.

For what it's worth, cut and paste a sentence from the letter into Google and you'll see that the highroad.org has the same letter referenced in it's archives, text only.

SlimTim
 

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Yeah, I have read somewhere that East German Makarovs and Russian military are C&R eligible, but they are quite expensive. They can more than 200 dollars!
 

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Sorry, I cannot read the letter which stipulates which Mak's are C&R. The way I read it, all EG pistols meet the requirements and some Russian pistols do as well. Would someone be so kind and give me the short version of which Russian guns are C&R.

Thanks a lot.

K'dad
 
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