[John Wall]

I posted a few pictures of this rifle's markings last weekend. Here is a large group. The rifle's unit marking disc indicates that it was issued to "Lst B 91", the 91st Austrian Landsturm battalion during WW I. It was one of around 70,000 M1912 rifles and carbines awaiting delivery to Mexico, Columbia and Chile at the start of WW I. All were soon purchased by the Austro-Hungarian Army and issued to various units not part of the regular standing Army. The main indicator of A/H Army use is the replacement of the narrow Mexican lower sling swivel with the large and wide sling swivel shown here, which we see normally on Austrian M.95 Steyr straight pull rifles.

Does anyone have any information on Lst B 91??
Best Regards,
John

 

[NavyGunner]

Great find John, that's the first one I've ever seen outside of books. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Xela]

Wonderful example

That's a great set of pictures.

Thanks for sharing sir.

Xela

 

[Clay]

OK....that's nice.

 

[keithreid]

my google-fu came up with a couple of links, hope they help.

http://www.austro-hungarian-army.co.uk/troophis.htm
http://www.militaerpass.net/mp_inf.htm


if you google austrian landsturm, it comes up with several books that might have more information. it even called up NYT articles from 1914 that talked about the landsturm.

y'all have a good day, Keith

 

[car99]

Very nice! These had to be the best equipped 2nd line units in the war.

 

[storkman]

Has it been rechambered for 8x50?

 

[mosin46]

1912

great find,again. are these around at all from a sizable previous import? never seen a mexican outside of pics and only 2 columbians.

 

[John Wall]

Has it been rechambered for 8x50?

Hi John,
No, the Mexican (and the Chilean and Columbia) rifles taken into A/H Army service were all kept in 7 mm. If you have a copy of the Austro-Hungarian Army's "Merkblatter ubder eigene under fremlandesche Hand-und Faustfeuerwaffen" of 1918, the ordnance logistics data on the cartridge contains and ballistics in section 13. It appears that all cartridge box labeling is for 7 mm Mauser.

Unlike the Romanian M1893 and some Mosin Nagant rifles, they seem to have kept these rifles in the original caliber, probably because they were in the main issued to Landsturm battalions which, with few exceptions, did not normally mix in with front line units and their supply chain.
Regards,
John

 

[John Wall]

great find,again. are these around at all from a sizable previous import? never seen a mexican outside of pics and only 2 columbians.

Hi Mosin46,
No, these rifles have never be available or imported in quantity anywhere, even out of Mexico...if any were ever delivered. I have only seen two in the past 40 years and own both of them. It hard to track down what happened to them after WW I. The Czechoslovaks ended up with around 5,000 and they sold these to Yugoslavia, who later converted them to M24b's. The Steyr production line for these rifles was sold to a Chinese warlord who installed it at Mukden (Arsenal of the Three Eastern Provinces) and used it to make the Manchurian Mauser known as the Type or Model 13.

The few Mexican M1912 around I suspect were brought back by US troops who picked them up in the offensives of the fall of 1918, or they were part of the 72,000 Central Powers rifles brought back from Europe in 1919-1920 by the US War Departrment for distribution to American Legion and VFW posts. (Of the 72,000 trophy rifles, 5,000 were cataloged as "Other", in other words, Not German M71's, 71/84's, Gew 88's, Gew 98's, Kar 98's, A/h M.88's, or A/H M.95's.) Both rifles that I have are in original circa 1918 Austro-Hungarian condition.
Regards,
John

 

[Betonfahrer]

John, Great pictures.Is or was the receiver blued by the Austrians instead of in the white for Mexico? or was that normal for this rifle.It is great to actually see one and the close up or the markings.Too bad they were converted to 24b rifles.

 

[John Wall]

Hi Keith,
Both of my rifles have blued receivers, and John Sheehan (JPS) has seen several other Mexican M.1912 in Austrian collections which also have blued receivers. So, with 4-5 observed rifles, at best we can say that many Mexicans may have had blued receivers, and perhaps they were even originally blued that way for Mexico before WW I when they were made. We're just not sure at this point.
Regards,
John

 

[lcmunn]

Thanks for sharing.

John, Thanks for sharing. Even in your vast collecting experience, this must be a real trophy. There is so much history here. I looked at the soldiers'histories from the contacts on keithreid's posting and I can only wonder at the times of WWI and how eveyone delt with the aftermath.
Larry

 

[dg13]

Any internal Austrian markings? I have one in the "A" group. Mine does not have the Mexican Cartouch. I doubt if Mexico got these after WWI. Also the reciever on mine was not blued. Unfortunately mine has no unit mark.

 

[John Wall]

Any internal Austrian markings? I have one in the "A" group. Mine does not have the Mexican Cartouch. I doubt if Mexico got these after WWI.

I'll have to check about the markings under the handguard, etc. I know my first M.1912 has no markings under the barrel, but I forgot to check the second.

I agree completely about these rifles never getting to Mexico. There were supposedly over 200 Landsturm battalions raised, so I'm sure that most if not all saw field service in Europe, making them really damaged goods by the time the war ended.
Regards,
John

 

[John Wall]

my google-fu came up with a couple of links, hope they help.

http://www.austro-hungarian-army.co.uk/troophis.htm
http://www.militaerpass.net/mp_inf.htm


if you google austrian landsturm, it comes up with several books that might have more information. it even called up NYT articles from 1914 that talked about the landsturm.

y'all have a good day, Keith

Hi Keith,
Thanks for the URL's. In the year between now and when I originally posted this rifle, I have spent alot of time periodcially searching for information on this battalion. So far, nothing at all. However, I soon started refining the search terms I was using and also tried a number of other search engines besides Google and made some progress. Early on, I realized that most A/H Landsturm battalions were used as "etappen" or Lines of Communications guards, who did not do front line service. Since this profile did not explain readily how these Mexican M1912's got to the USA in 1918 "frozen in time" condition, I began looking for evidence that an A/H Landsturm unit had served on the Western Front in the fall of 1918 where a rifle like this might have been acquired as a battlefield pick-up or surrendered weapon.

It was a big help owning a Austro-Hungarian M1895 long rifle which is battlefield pick-up from the Meuse-Argonne Offensive. Previously, I was able to trace this rifle (through a plaque on its butt stock) to the US Army's 29th Infantry Division. In reading the 29th's unit history, I learned that the 29th ID attacked and defeated the Austro-Hungarian Army's 1st Infantry Division in late October of 1918 in the Meuse Argonne. I realized that there might have been other A/H units in the area, perhaps a Landsturm battalion in a support role, so I began using variations in German and English of "1st Austro-Hungarian Infantry Divsion" in various search engines. It didn't take long to find out the the A/H 6th Corps was being moved to the Meuse Argonne in late summer and fall of 1918, and that one of the four divisions in the 6th Corps was the only front line A/H Landsturm Divsion, the 106th Landsturm Infantry Division. Based on the post-1917 table of organization for A/H infantry divsions, the 106th should have had been composed of two brigades with two regiments each, and each regiment could be expected to have had two to three infantry battalions each. At this point, I have no idea what Landsturm infantry battalion numbers were part of the 106th, but there should have been 8 to 12 battalions in the unit. Maybe one was the 91st? Time will tell!
Regards,
John

 

[TP]

I agree completely about these rifles never getting to Mexico. ................

John and Darrell, I don't want to ruffle any feathers, but I am afraid that I have to disagree with the above. As you may remember, the two Mexican M1912 rifles that I had, both of which had the large, Austro-Hungarian M95 sling swivel in place, came from Mexico in the '90s. I picked them out of a group of about 10 that were for sale by the importer, The Southern Armory out of Galax, Va. who was the first importer of the Mexican military surplus arms. At that time I was able to look at them all and none had the Mexican seal stamped on the stock and all showed considerable use. There is no doubt that at least some went to Mexico post WW1 and survived their experiences there to come to this country. Darrell, for confirmation of Mexican origin, check the importer's marks on yours.

Now, how and why did Austrian used arms get to Mexico post WW1? We may never know but we discussed the possibility several years ago that they may have been refurbished by Steyr after the War and sent to Mexico in an attempt to get business in the 1920s? We will likely never know for certain.

 

[John Wall]

John and Darrell, I don't want to ruffle any feathers, but I am afraid that I have to disagree with the above. As you may remember, the two Mexican M1912 rifles that I had, both of which had the large, Austro-Hungarian M95 sling swivel in place, came from Mexico in the '90s. I picked them out of a group of about 10 that were for sale by the importer, The Southern Armory out of Galax, Va. who was the first importer of the Mexican military surplus arms. At that time I was able to look at them all and none had the Mexican seal stamped on the stock and all showed considerable use. There is no doubt that at least some went to Mexico post WW1 and survived their experiences there to come to this country. Darrell, for confirmation of Mexican origin, check the importer's marks on yours.

Now, how and why did Austrian used arms get to Mexico post WW1? We may never know but we discussed the possibility several years ago that they may have been refurbished by Steyr after the War and sent to Mexico in an attempt to get business in the 1920s? We will likely never know for certain.

Hi TP,
I completely forgot that these rifles came from Mexico. Perhaps the countries that had these after the surrender, like Czechoslovakia, offered them directly to Mexico instead of selling them all to Yugoslavia? Some of the rifles must have collected at depot locations within the old A/H Empire arms and sold aborad.
Regards,
John

 

[TP]

Good possibility John. They are interesting rifles. When Terry of TSA brought back the first load of surplus arms from Mexico, there were only a very few of the M1912s in the trucks. He brought in more Mexican 7mm Arisakas than M1912s . That was a very interesting situation, wish I had been able to keep all of the rifles that I had from him. He even had Mosins with the German style H-band bayonet conversion (short lug). I could go on and on but I'm getting off topic.

 

[dg13]

I stand corrected and thank you for the provenance for the rifle.

dg13