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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I've had two Type 38 Arisaka's for 3 or four years and never had fired them till last Friday. One is a very nice custom Monte Carlo stocked with scope and shortened barrel and turned out to be a nice shooter. The other is a good condition long rifle with good bore but stock has been shortened. This one is the headache! I shot one round and then looked at the fired brass and discovered the shoulder had moved "1/2 inch" forward! Scary! I have ordered some Cerro-Safee to do a chamber cast. That being said I thought I might share a pic of the brass. The first brass is a normal 6.5x50 Norma round, third brass is a normal fired round in my second rifle. The second brass is the problem brass fired from the long barreled rifle. I believe the rifle has been converted to something??? Couple shooters, at the range, suggested it may have been chamber bored to a .257 Roberts or a .260 Rem. I do have a .260 Rem brass and it would only chamber 3/4 of the brass's length so pretty sure it's not .260 Rem. Don't have a .257 Roberts brass to try. Maybe someone has ideas of what a popular conversion might have been utilizing the same barrel.
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Couple shooters, at the range, suggested it may have been chamber bored to a .257 Roberts or a .260 Rem. I do have a .260 Rem brass and it would only chamber 3/4 of the brass's length so pretty sure it's not .260 Rem. Don't have a .257 Roberts brass to try. Maybe someone has ideas of what a popular conversion might have been utilizing the same barrel.

This one is the headache! I shot one round and then looked at the fired brass and discovered the shoulder had moved "1/2 inch" forward! Scary! I
The shoulder did not move back; the shoulder became part of the case body, the new shoulder was formed from the case neck. It is not scary to me because I understand what happens to the shoulder when sized and fired.

What is scary? Scary happens when the firing pin drives the case forward until the shoulder contacts the shoulder of the chamber. In that situation it is impossible for the reloader to understand what happens to the case when the trigger is pulled. I guess that is the reason they claim they 'moved the shoulder forward and or back and then they bump-um.

F. Guffey
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
The shoulder did not move back; the shoulder became part of the case body, the new shoulder was formed from the case neck. It is not scary to me because I understand what happens to the shoulder when sized and fired.

What is scary? Scary happens when the firing pin drives the case forward until the shoulder contacts the shoulder of the chamber. In that situation it is impossible for the reloader to understand what happens to the case when the trigger is pulled. I guess that is the reason they claim they 'moved the shoulder forward and or back and then they bump-um.

F. Guffey
Whatever technically happened, the case neck expanded to allow and fill up the chambers extended length. The chamber had to be reamed for a different cartridge as this is not normal chamber wear.
 

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I had two identical 6.5 Arisakas at the range. One I had re-cut to 6.5x55. I reached over and without looking and inserted a 6.5x50 cartridge into the 6.5x55. It was swelled at the base a little and had about half a neck. Going by that, if you get a half a neck with a 55 MMMM length case, I would figure on at least a 6.5x.257 or a 6.5x57 chamber. Both are about 57 MM long. Some people will tell you they are the same case, but they are not. I have checked a few over the years and the shoulder angle is different enough that you would have to bear the bolt down on the 6,5x57 cartridge to get it to lock in a 6.5x.257 gun. That is the most common conversion, although it could be a wildcat or other military period cartridge.
 

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You have a rifle that is almost certainly rechambered to 6.5 x 57mm or 6.5 Roberts- essentially the same cartridge and very similar to the .260 Rem.; as noted above.

Here is what can also happen, and represents the way I discovered the same situation. Guys who did the re-chambering did not always stamp the receiver or barrel.
Even though the neck split on the reloaded brass, there was no problem. I would not have noticed if I had not picked up the "funny" looking brass. ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I had two identical 6.5 Arisakas at the range. One I had re-cut to 6.5x55. I reached over and without looking and inserted a 6.5x50 cartridge into the 6.5x55. It was swelled at the base a little and had about half a neck. Going by that, if you get a half a neck with a 55 MMMM length case, I would figure on at least a 6.5x.257 or a 6.5x57 chamber. Both are about 57 MM long. Some people will tell you they are the same case, but they are not. I have checked a few over the years and the shoulder angle is different enough that you would have to bear the bolt down on the 6,5x57 cartridge to get it to lock in a 6.5x.257 gun. That is the most common conversion, although it could be a wildcat or other military period cartridge.
There is a good possibility of 6.6x55 or 6.5x57. I looked in my "Cartridges of the World" book and it sure looks close to one of those. Soon as I do a chamber cast I'll know for sure.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Might be a 6.5x57 Mauser. Can't read OAL. Here are the specs taken from pictured book.

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Jap Mauser My Arisaka
6.5x50 6.5x57 Expanded Brass
Rim Base Dia .466 .470 .466
Shoulder Dia .417 .431 .433
Shoulder to base 1.531 1.655 1.172 Approx.
Head Dia .466 .468 .447 (Shrunk?)
 

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I do believe we all said the same thing , 6.5x 57 = 6.5 Roberts = 6.5 x 57 Mauser; and probably a couple more. ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Spend some of my Covid money a couple days ago. I ordered a "Anneleeze" automatic annealer. Have lots of brass that needs annealing before reloading. Been putting it off a long time and spent the $300. Watched all the YouBoob videos and am satisfied it will do all I need it to do. Hope it will arrive soon.
 

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There is a good possibility of 6.6x55 or 6.5x57. I looked in my "Cartridges of the World" book and it sure looks close to one of those. Soon as I do a chamber cast I'll know for sure.
I do not agree about 'knowing for sure"; you should know for sure by measuring the length lf the fired case from the datum/shoulder to the case head. And if the shoulder on your case move forward there will be absolutely no value in the measurements.

If you are one of the fortunate reloaders that can cast a chamber consider yourself lucky, at last count there were only two reloaders that can case a chamber.

F. Guffey
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I do not agree about 'knowing for sure"; you should know for sure by measuring the length lf the fired case from the datum/shoulder to the case head. And if the shoulder on your case move forward there will be absolutely no value in the measurements.

If you are one of the fortunate reloaders that can cast a chamber consider yourself lucky, at last count there were only two reloaders that can case a chamber.

F. Guffey
I've done this several times before an is not hard. (Simplified) Remove from stock, block bore just at the rifleing above chamber, warm chamber area to keep CeraKote from drying too fast and pore the hot melt into the chamber carefully. Knock cast out with wooden dowel and mic the cast.
 

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I've done this several times before and it is not hard. (Simplified) Remove from stock, block bore just at the riffling above chamber, warm chamber area to keep CeraKote from drying too fast and pore the hot melt into the chamber carefully. Knock cast out with wooden dowel and mic the cast.
I considered the possibility there was a smith/reloader that did not know everything; I accept the fact many reloaders etc. have reduced the answer to a few lines and have hit a wall as thought they do not want to improve their methods and techniques.

Forgive.

F. Guffey
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I considered the possibility there was a smith/reloader that did not know everything; I accept the fact many reloaders etc. have reduced the answer to a few lines and have hit a wall as thought they do not want to improve their methods and techniques.

Forgive.

F. Guffey
I hit a little snag trying to get the barrel off the action. Guess I'm going to have to find a metal funnel that are reach deep down into the receivers area to get the melt to flow. I have the tools but if you ever removed an old Mosen or Arisaka barrel then you know it's really tough.
 

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The same thing happened to me. New to me Type 38, first shot fired put the shoulder where the neck used to be.

I determined it to be a 6.5-257 Roberts that hadn't been stamped. If you'd like, I can send you a couple empty 6.5-257 cartridges to test with. I scored a set of dies off ebay and load my own now.
 

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I’d use Cerrosafe for the chamber cast if I were you. Cerakote will just make a pretty coloured mess in there and won’t help your situation.

Don’t forget that idiots read these forums and right now one of them is trying to make a chamber cast out of glorified paint!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
The same thing happened to me. New to me Type 38, first shot fired put the shoulder where the neck used to be.

I determined it to be a 6.5-257 Roberts that hadn't been stamped. If you'd like, I can send you a couple empty 6.5-257 cartridges to test with. I scored a set of dies off ebay and load my own now.
Hey that would be great! I'll private message my name and address. Thanks
I’d use Cerrosafe for the chamber cast if I were you. Cerakote will just make a pretty coloured mess in there and won’t help your situation.

Don’t forget that idiots read these forums and right now one of them is trying to make a chamber cast out of glorified paint!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Ha Ha Ha! I was trying to remember the correct name for Cerrosafe and CeroKote came to mind. Sarrosafe is what I'll be using! LoL
 

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A chamber cast is a good idea. As I said before, the 6.5x57 and the 6.5x.257R look the same, but are not. I have never had a rifle re-cut to 6.5x.257R accept a 6.5x57 cartridge. I don't know if a 6.5x,257R cartridge will drop in a 6.5x57 chamber, but I bet it will. 6.5x57 ammo was always harder to get than 6.5x50 so I have doubts it would be re-cut to that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Went looking on eBad and Amazoom for a suitable funnel and didn't think it would be that hard to find. All that I saw were not going to fit into the ejection port and down about two inches to get at the chamber. Probably going to have to make something out of sheet metal. I now have the cerrosafe an just need a way to get it deep down to the chamber. The ones that I could modify all came from China 45-60 day shipping.
 
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