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Discussion Starter #1
Hello all.

I have a 11 '09 dated, J.A.C. Pattern 1907 bayonet with the hook still intact. The bayonet is marked SA and the scabbard marked 4MD with a Serial number 12307. The leather scabbard is EFD marked but the throat and tip are Lithgow marked.

I would like to find the "correct" rifle to match the vintage and markings of the bayonet.

I understand the order to stop manufacturing of hooked bayonets and to remove the hook was issued October 29, 1913. Knowing military systems that doesn't mean they all went away instantly. I believe they were used by ANZAC units at least in early engagements such as Gallipoli.

If my research on 4MD and the South Australian forces prior to and during WW1 is correct (and I am far from an expert), they did not serve, as whole units overseas as part of the AIF rather they remained part of the home defense I believe.

All that said, to find an appropriate rifle, in a perfect world be a pre-1916, 4MD marked, No1 Mk III Lithgow or perhaps a British manufactured but 4MD marked rifle?

Understanding that finding the "perfect" rifle could be next to impossible especiallyhere in the U.S., any Australian marked No1 MkIII would be acceptable?

Bottom line, a No1 MkIII* would NOT be appropriate, correct?

Thank you in advance for helping me focus my search!







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Nice looking find!馃憤
Basically did the same thing settled (happy to) on Lithgow 15 Mklll to a 1908 Wilkerson hooky.Just for a thought 馃
MD wasn鈥檛 too much of my criteria.
Since you researched a& tried to learn few things a.tidbit ;馃憤
At ANZAC or at Gallipoli mean exactly the same thing.
Cheer鈥檚.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Nice looking find!
Basically did the same thing settled (happy to) on Lithgow 15 Mklll to a 1908 Wilkerson hooky.Just for a thought
MD wasn鈥檛 too much of my criteria.
Since you researched a few things a tidbit
At ANZAC or at Gallipoli mean exactly the same thing.
Cheer鈥檚.
Thank you! And thanks for clarifying, I should have realized, ANZAC only existed at Gallipoli. I'm trying to become more educated on the long-standing mateship between the U.S. and our allies from down under. A remarkable and long-standing alliance, yet Americans don't often understand events, people, or places beyond our soil or flag. I hope to rectify that in my life anyway.

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If you're looking for the matching shooter, it's a SMLE Mk III.

The terminology of Rifle No 1 Mk III came about in 1926. The Mk III* (minus the cut off, volley sights, piling swivel and the windage adjustment on the rear sight leaf and an altered striker) came about in early 1916.

So, pretty much any Lithgow or British SMLE Mk III or Mk III* with a make date of up to 1918 would fit your needs just fine.

Hope you find one soon.
 

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Re. para 4 of #1 - The Sth. Aus. units engaged in the Dardanelles campaign were:-
3rd, 9th, and 11th Light Horse with the 10th, 12th, 16th and 27th Battalions.
ANZAC was a term used beyond Gallipoli in the Desert Campaigns, etc.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Thank you. I know the hunt will be fun, I appreciate it!

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Re. para 4 of #1 - The Sth. Aus. units engaged in the Dardanelles campaign were:-
3rd, 9th, and 11th Light Horse with the 10th, 12th, 16th and 27th Battalions.
ANZAC was a term used beyond Gallipoli in the Desert Campaigns, etc.
Thank you very much for the education. I strive to speak more accurately and do the veterans justice.

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Look for a 4MD rifle, of any manufacturer, that was not refurbished.
 
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The scabbard you have was actually issued in 1918 by the 4MD number, so the question is what is the pommel marked? Should be SA and a 1 to 4 digit number. The highest number SA HQ bayonet I have noted is a Dec 1911 EFD made example numbered SA 7834. This would have been issued pre 1914. The bayonet manufacture date can be considerably before the SA issue date. As mentioned above, any pre 1914 made SMLE III with volley sights, etc will do the job. SA marked rifles of that vintage are not easy to find, as most would have gone with the SA raised battalions to the Middle East in Oct 1914.
 

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Note the first digger in the foreground.
Hopefully he has a MkIII with volleys & cutoff, otherwise someone needs to inform him he is incorrect.

3800746


Would not any rifle they are using be correct for a HQ?
 
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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
The scabbard you have was actually issued in 1918 by the 4MD number, so the question is what is the pommel marked? Should be SA and a 1 to 4 digit number. The highest number SA HQ bayonet I have noted is a Dec 1911 EFD made example numbered SA 7834. This would have been issued pre 1914. The bayonet manufacture date can be considerably before the SA issue date. As mentioned above, any pre 1914 made SMLE III with volley sights, etc will do the job. SA marked rifles of that vintage are not easy to find, as most would have gone with the SA raised battalions to the Middle East in Oct 1914.
WOW! Thank you for the detail. I'd love to learn where/how you find that information, I presume years of experience. When I get home I will look at the bayonet, but as best as I can tell from the photo above the number is 1869.

So if the bayonet is determined to match the scabbard (no guarantee) and it was issued in 1918 then a No1 MkIII* would be acceptable?

I am a career US Army officer and history buff, so I know there is rarely an "always" or a "never." I also understand as a currently serving Reservist, that non-frontline units don't always get the "newest" equipment, so older bayonet, older rifle would also make sense. Same can be said for any HQ element?

The only real factor would be when would there have been NO bayonets with hooked quillions left in the inventory?

Thank you again!
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
Note the first digger in the foreground.
Hopefully he has a MkIII with volleys & cutoff, otherwise someone needs to inform him he is incorrect.

View attachment 3800746

Would not any rifle they are using be correct for a HQ?
Fantastic photo! Thank you! That does help. I do have a 1905 B.S.A. No1 MkI* *, wire wrapped with volley signts but missing the cutoff. It is a rifle sent to Ireland. So I have an early rifle, that this bayonet would be appropriate for, just not Australian...yet! Clearly a No 1MkIII could be seen with my bayonet. Your perspective is much appreciated! Any idea when that photo may have been taken and who it is of? Thank you!
 

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Howdy Artyldr01;just another Tidbit added;
The RAN kept (used etc) a many of the Mklll鈥檚 still installed with the volley sight setup well into WW2,was a kinda Navy tradition thing,they prolly might of had some Hooky鈥檚 stowed away as well.
Cheer鈥檚
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Howdy Artyldr01;just another Tidbit added;
The RAN kept (used etc) a many of the Mklll鈥檚 still installed with the volley sight setup well into WW2,was a kinda Navy tradition thing,they prolly might of had some Hooky鈥檚 stowed away as well.
Cheer鈥檚
Thank you for that info. Are there any good reference books beyond Skennerton's big book and general history books, that anyone cam recommend, or perhaps other websites and forums relating to these weapons and Australian/New Zealand military history and organization?

Thank you all again.

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