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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Yeah, ya know, there is plastic training ammunition and g4 bolt sets out there, but nothing for a cetme. I've fired plastic training ammo in a live fire obstacle course when training with a nato ally in military service, the West German Bundeswehr, it was good ammo for short range and would penetrate targets or knock them down. It won't cycle in a rifle with rollers installed, maybe not all all no matter if one uses a rollerless bolt head in a cetme, the bolt carrier is likely too heavy to cycle, unsure, maybe someone else is sure.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
Yeah, let me say how I trained with the West German Bundeswehr with the special plastic ammo and bolt at one of their training areas in the alps., with a temporarily issue G3 .308 with collapsible stock style It was winter snow and I was in full rain gear with winter clothing underneath, so afterwards I was wet with sweat. I have orders from the German Bundeswehr and a medal from training with them on their guns, so if I had stayed in the army I could continue to wear the medal, along with US Army order to be allowed to wear that Schutzenschnur.

They had a special course with pop up targets various trees and large cement blocks, and you were supposed to advance with a german "grader", an officer standing right with you, running right with you, a score sheet on a clip board, and the instructions were to go into full combat mode, to drop and roll out of the way and take cover and engage a target when it popped up, also you had a small amount of time before it started making a rifle blast sound and those who didn't move fast enough or such were graded as shot dead or graded down if the target dropped down without a hit, and it seemed to have electronic sensors to indicate when it was shot or not. So you advanced, and you were encouraged by the grader, he'd be happy to see proper form, and for him it was said to be very dangerous for the plastic bullets were said to be possible to be lethal. I did a lot of rolling out of the way, and taking cover, I hit all my targets on time before I was "dead", and avoided friendlies, and at the last possible moment was supposed to advance on the shack after pop up targets were engaged or not engaged if friendly and lob a fake grenade through the window. Boom, I was the only one of the americans to get a 100%, for some reason, and they pointed to me for the german recruits to do what I did as well. And I paid for that little show, I was drenching wet with sweat inside my wet gear.

Its hard to say how lethal the plastic ammo really is other than what I heard of a fatality from a neck shot years before there, I mean, the whole point obviously is likely to reduce the chance of death for a grader and not destroying their range. They had things laying around that the rounds bounced into and broke, like a thin wooden box, a small flag pole to indicate minen and the avoided area(or you "died" right there and they had to re-run through the obstacle course and avoid deadly hazards so marked for training only).

I mean, it wasn't lost on me about the warning of leathality, it worried me, one of the german conscripts accidently popped off several rounds near the grader sideways while clearing a jam, and the went ballistic and the german soldier did a belly crawl back, in the deep snow all the while being yelled at but that was the extent of the punishment so he had to do the course again, he looked like frosty the snowman when he was done. There was a story that years ago a grader got shot in the neck and died, by plastic bullet.

The projectile is just for making a noise or getting pop up targets to drop, not really for busting targets or such. My hk91/g3 ss a total accuracy rifle with long and large commercial scope, reinforcement strap on the receiver, fancy stock set and bipod, not exactly I would use for training, but my cetmes are bare bones rifles with g3 like sheetmetal receivers, I even only use g3 mags in them, and obviously a g3 training bolt won't work in them. Now I am wishing I had a beater century g3, at least I have a unshaved g3 bolt head now, I once had one so much a dog I traded it off.

For me, I'd do training similar to that, any blasting or such, well, not so important, like shortrange hit a marker out at the woods, and such.
 

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Somebody on one of these boards using a bolt gun fired a round of that ammo from 25' at the side of his wooden shed and it went clean through. Chrono measurements show that the projectile moves at over 4000 ft/s, so even being very light it will mess up flesh. I've fired it from a converted Chilean 1912 and the recoil is like shooting 9mm from a Hi Point carbine. Therefore, the rules of physics suggest that at close range the plastic ammo can be pretty nasty.
 

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I realize this is an old thread but just in case someone wants to try it, you have to get your Cetme bolt weight down. I'm working from memory but I believe the HK training bolt weighs 470 grams. A regular cetme BCG weighs 660 grams. I started whacking on a cetme carrier to see how much weight I could remove. I started with a Model B carrier since it's already considered "light weight".



Then I made an aluminum sleeve to replace the steel one that goes inside the carrier tube for the return spring to push against. The regular sleeve weighs 36grams, the aluminum was 10 grams.



After pressing it in I drilled a bunch of holes to remove even more weight, The ones over the carrier go as deep into the top of the carrier as possible. BTW, the carrier is hard so you have to use carbide cutters and drill bits. This was an early photo, I even drilled holes through the sides.



The cetme locking piece weighs 46 grams. My aluminum one was about 10 grams IIRC. I also ground some off the bolt head, no need for the metal the carrier pawl holds onto.



I cross pinned the bolt head to the locking piece and only have the LP retained in the carrier by the tang. I could've welded the bolt head to the carrier but wouldn't be able to service the firing pin.

My carrier is down to about 530 grams. After the time it took to hack this carrier down I can say it was dumb that I didn't just buy the HK carrier and extend it to cetme length with a piece of aluminum or titanium.
 

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Wow,
after all that work I would think that starting from scratch and machining a block of aluminum would have been less time. Using an MP5 carrier as an example it wouldn't be too tough and wouldn't require carbide drills and mill bits. I've seen your work on a number of builds and boards so I'm pretty sure you're capable....look at the locking piece you made. I wonder if its worth the trouble to do it at all?

Frank
 

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it is neat to see all the ideas guys come up with to shoot different types of ammo. I read through your locking piece thread on weaponeer??? maybe? Very interesting to see the differences. I wonder if you couldn't just make up a skeleton aluminum carrier to run the blue stuff if weight is the primary consideration? Might have to look into this myself. I've not had much to do with the Cetme/HK stuff but did a couple builds recently out of curiosity. I've been working on machineguns for about 15 years or so and have the machinery.....thanks for all your helpful posts along the way.

Frank
 
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