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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
My original post was yanked. I think. It just disapeired and I have no idea what happened to it, are we subpose to get notification of a post beeing yanked?????????????


Here was the dea in the first post some of you may remeber itl. I purchased a few m39s as modern firearms ( pre 1898), loged them in as moden firearms. Then discovered I had a couple of 1895 receivers, one Tula and one Sestroryetsk. .

So i called, left messages with the ATF to find out how do I log them out as Antiques. posted the questions here and got a few answers while I was wateing for the ATF to call me back.

I finialy got some one to answer the question today. He even gave his name and told me to put in my explantion for the " log out as antique "

He said " inadvertant entry , due to rifle beeing made in 1895 " was the correct way to log out the firearm as a antique. He also said I have to be able to prove it. I asked if I could take a picture of the serial number and receiver tang date and file them like I would a 4473. He agreed that would be the best way, and any documentation I could provide of the rifle would be in my best intrest.

Anyways, I just wanted to foolow up with my findings.
 

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It's pretty clear cut, any rifle with a receiver date of 1898 or before need not be logged in any way, no more than you need to log a lamp or a paperweight.

Unless you live in a Communist state like NJ (where I used to live) pre-98's aren't even considered firearms as far as purchasing them.

I am mildly annoyed by over cautious sellers at gun shows that have pre-98 firearms on their table but refuse to sell them without paperwork, but it's their choice, just like it's mine to walk away! it's no big deal to do the forms, etc. but the "cash and carry " convenience of buying say, an 1895 dated Mosin M91 is a plus. If they want me to do paper on a $250 antique M91 I would just as soon not buy it and just get another refurb 91/30 for half that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Completely agree and always will. But things changed a littel bit for me. Had my first audit last winter. passed with no problem. But probable lost a good 3 months worth of life over the 24hr worrie period.

And also realize the feds don't have to win the court trial to distroy a person and teach others a lesson. They could do worse by tieing up my money, time, and generaly reaking havoc on mine and my famile life. Plus they aready had one gundealer who thought they WERE NOT Antiques, so starts the here say.


Some times it pays to be a littel more cautious, basicly I see both sides of the coin now-a-days
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
To be honest, i did get lucky. He was the 4th try, 2 said they wouldn't answer the question, just couldn't answer it, and the third one won't return my call. he was the 4th call and only person who would realy listen to what I had to say
 

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To be honest, i did get lucky. He was the 4th try, 2 said they wouldn't answer the question, just couldn't answer it, and the third one won't return my call. he was the 4th call and only person who would realy listen to what I had to say
The curious part is what if your next time dealing with ATF, such as in an audit, you get one of the other 3 people??? Will they make up their own rules or interpret the law differently?
 

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I've bought two "antique" Mosins: M39 on an 1897 Tula receiver, and 91/30 with an 1895 Tula receiver. In both cases I had to fill out all the forms and so on. I think that the tang date entails disassembly of the rifle, which prevents easily ascertaining the antique status.
 

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The curious part is what if your next time dealing with ATF, such as in an audit, you get one of the other 3 people??? Will they make up their own rules or interpret the law differently?
You are correct without a letter in writing it's just one out of 4 agents opinion that means little at audit time. I never felt the small increase in price for an antique was worth the possible payout to fight the BATF at a later date.
 

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I never felt the small increase in price for an antique was worth the possible payout to fight the BATF at a later date.
Buit I like a good fight with a bureaucrat if its one they can't possibly win. Try it, it's fun!

You have to realize they must go with their own regulations. The antique status and the firearm is the receiver rules were set down by the ATF in their own regulations and they MUST abide by them. This isn't one of those gray areas or one they've avoided addressing and defining for fear it'll break down their cozy bureaucratic empire like the Milsurp military firearm "original condition" rule. The 1898 date is set by Congress and they ignore it at peril of a career destroying loss in court, not that it'd ever get that far.
 

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Buit I like a good fight with a bureaucrat if its one they can't possibly win. Try it, it's fun!

You have to realize they must go with their own regulations. The antique status and the firearm is the receiver rules were set down by the ATF in their own regulations and they MUST abide by them. This isn't one of those gray areas or one they've avoided addressing and defining for fear it'll break down their cozy bureaucratic empire like the Milsurp military firearm "original condition" rule. The 1898 date is set by Congress and they ignore it at peril of a career destroying loss in court, not that it'd ever get that far.
With a shop it doesn't quite work that way, add up just the costs of what you're saying and see if it equals out (or comes in lower) then the mark up a shop might get from selling it as an antique. Right now what are we talking maybe $50-100 dollars markup? A dink at audit time you might have to fight will cost many times that. IMO if this guy puts his mind to it I bet he can figure out a way to remove this off his books without relying on the word of an unnamed agent that wouldn't stand up to an audit.... ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I am sure there are otherways of taking care of the issue, this was the way I felt was best, the rifles came from a wholesaler, not just walkins at a show. However I did get the agents name he said it when he answered the phone and then resaid it when I asked if I was able to use his name in the expalnation after he answered the question.,

The 1898 is a law, if they use that to hold any dealer to the fire, I guarentee that aint all they are looking for. Besides I am takeing pictures of the serial number and receiver date and fileing them just as I would a 4473, and I will get a picture ID if the sale is online and copy down the licence if the sale is at a show, besides this issue would never go to court. I would hand them back my licence in a hart beat
 

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And I've had zero problems buying antique rifles from gunshops including a bunch of M39s. The dealer didn't realize they were antiques until I took the stocks off and showed him the tang markings. All he had to do is note the receiver date, that they were antiques and therefore stuck from the book, and then ignored the usual paperwork BS.

If you are a dealer please concentrate on keeping your books matching your inventory and don't invent new regulations to waste your time. As a former federal bureaucrat I can assure you that meeting requirements that exist only in your imagination does not get you any points or any forgiveness for any real violations. Just do exactly what the regulations and rulings ask, no more no less.
 

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I've logged them out of my 03 books with simple date and "Antique" in disposition, no auditor has ever questioned it and I've had a dozen or so audits over the years
You've been audited a dozen times with a C&R FFL over the years??!? That must be some sort of record. Your state must be crime free, because obviously ATF has no better way to spend their time.
 

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But, Expert----- Mkubes also owns a gunshop... he may be talking about as an o1 FFL. or perhaps he has both 01 & 03 FFL...
 
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