Another No5

417 Views 12 Replies 7 Participants Last post by milprileb, 3 d ago

Highpower3006

Discussion Starter · 14 d ago

The recent thread that chefshaunkilleen posted on his No5 raised a few questions in my mind about my No5. It has matching numbers on the receiver and bolt, (D9227) and the magazine is unnumbered. If you squint real hard you can just make out the top of the broad arrow above the serial number and to the right of where the manufacturers stamp would have been. Was the only wartime maker of No5 rifles BSA? How unusual is it to find an early No5 with matching numbers? I remember being told that it likely came out of India, but I don't see any markings to indicate that. However, the metal has been liberally slathered with black paint and IIRC, I was told one time that the heavy coat of paint was an indicator of Indian arsenal work. I have taken it apart and examined it closely and there is no importer stamp.

Finally, the tip of the forend was painted yellow at one time, is there any significance to that?

I picked this up about 5-6 years ago from a LGS for $350 OTD. It has a very nice bore with strong rifling and no pitting whatsoever. Overall, I am pretty happy with it as I like guns that have a bit of character.

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JB White

· #2 · 14 d ago

The screw through the forend is accredited to being an India service trait.
Aside from specs of yellow, there are flecks of red near the buttsocket.

At $350 you did fine money-wise.

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Alan De Enfield

· #3 · 14 d ago

Highpower3006 said:
Was the only wartime maker of No5 rifles BSA?

No a higher number were made by Fazakerley/

Highpower3006 said:
How unusual is it to find an early No5 with matching numbers?

It seems to be increasingly difficult in the US due to the way they were imported, in Europe it is the norm to have matching numbers and any without would normally be rejected by a buyer.

Highpower3006 said:
Finally, the tip of the forend was painted yellow at one time, is there any significance to that?

On a No1 or a No4 It can be a 'warning' (Blank firing only) or a notice of Cadet usage and safe to fire but is "worn and unlikely to be accurate"
I have never seen a No5 with yellow markings

Highpower3006 said:
and the magazine is unnumbered.

It would have have had one fitted during its armourer checks (post June 1946), and has probably lost it whilst in civilian use.

The star (*) on the top of the breech indicates a rusty barrel

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Alan De Enfield

· #4 · 14 d ago

JB White said:
Aside from specs of yellow, there are flecks of red near the buttsocket.

Well spotted "Hawkeye"
Just above the trigger. Maybe more investigative work needed - it could have been an Indian DP.

Indian DP markings.

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milprileb

· #5 · 13 d ago

Comments:

Not ready to leap to conclusion this is a DP rifle. Firstly, I have no knowledge of any DP No.5 being reported. Secondly the yellow paint or red paint look random. I don't see wood here that looks refinished to cover up being painted to denote a lesser grade or drill rifle.

As to the metal itself being painted, is that Suncorite paint as applied at manufacture in UK or is that slathered craptacular paint so common on Indian 2A rifles imported to USA....wood soggy with grease saturation, paint flaking off and wood spongy. Wood on this No.5 does not have all those wonderful abuses so common with Indian Service.

Does have the Ishy screw in forend and the neatly white rack # on butt stock. Mind you , who ever did this neat numbering so common on Indian Rifles imported here, was not ever employed at any ROF in UK nor related to any of
the sloppy craftsman who applied marks to No.4 and No.5 rifles in WWII.

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DisasterDog

· #6 · 13 d ago

The “C” on the top flat of the barrel knox is also an Indian marking.

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Highpower3006

Discussion Starter · #7 · 13 d ago

To address a couple of the points raised:

I don't see any evidence of rust on the exterior under the wood or anywhere else. the bore is shiny but a bit worn. there is some roughness in the grooves, but it looks to me to be more typical of machine tool marks rather than rust pitting. I put some Dychem on one of my dummy cartridges and checked the wear at the muzzle and it passed my field expedient wear test.

While the wood is certainly dark and has various bumps and bruises, it is solid.

I have run brass fired in this rifle through my .303 sizing die and the brass seems to be no different than any other brass fired out of my other .303 rifles. Because of that, I would find it hard to believe that it would have been made a DP rifle due to excessive headspace.

My main knowledge base is more in US service weapons from the Revolutionary up through Vietnam, so I have no problem admitting my lack of detailed knowledge on the subject of British military arms.

Currently I just have a few representative examples. I would like to find a CLLE that I could afford.

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Alan De Enfield

· #8 · 13 d ago (Edited)

Highpower3006 said:
I put some Dychem on one of my dummy cartridges and checked the wear at the muzzle and it passed my field expedient wear test.

Unfortunately that test is useless for Lee Enfield rifles that have fired Cordite (fine for US rifles that used Nitro Cellulose)
The wear pattern for cordite rifles is from the chamber end - a "cordite rifle" could have a shot-out barrel but the 'bullet in the muzzle' could show a 'as new' barrel.

Here is why :

Source -

'Regulations For Army Ordnance Services', Vol.3, Pam.11A (1949) :-

APPENDIX 15

USE OF .303-IN CORDITE AND N.C. AMMUNITION

1. The action of Cordite propellant in the barrel of a .303-in. weapon is quite different from that of N.C. propellant.
Cordite gives a rapid build-up of pressure with great heat, leading to pitting and erosion of the chamber end of the barrel.
N.C., however, gives a more gradual build-up of pressure with less heat, and this in turn gives uniformity of barrel wear from chamber to muzzle, the amount of pitting and erosion being greatly reduced.

2. With Cordite propellant, set-up of the bullet is most pronounced and even when the chamber end of the barrel is well worn, the muzzle end still has sufficient rifling left to impart the necessary spin. As the wear advances up the barrel, so the accuracy of the weapon is progressively reduced.
With an N.C. propellant, set-up of the bullet is slow and by no means so pronounced, due to the more gradual building up of pressure. The barrel retains its original accuracy until wear reaches a critical stage, when a sudden falling off in accuracy occurs.

3. It can be seen by comparison with the effects of barrel wear that to use N.C. ammunition in a barrel which has fired Cordite will give serious inaccuracy in flight, whereas the use of Cordite ammunition in a barrel which has fired N.C. gives good accuracy, but serious changed the wear pattern of the barrel.
In the first case, i.e. a weapon which has fired Cordite ammunition the barrel will be eroded and fissured in the first few inches up from the chamber, the part in which obturation should occur. The poor set-up of the bullet, in the N.C. cartridge is not sufficient to give good gas sealing in such a barrel and the bullet does not, therefore, receive the maximum impulse. The resultant loss in velocity and instability due to lack of spin lead to a high degree of inaccuracy.
In the second case, Cordite ammunition fired from a barrel which shows uniformity of wear from firing N.C. ammunition, has an adequate reserve of set-up that ensures full gas sealing, with satisfactory velocity and spin. Unless the barrel wear is in a advanced stage due to firing a large number of N.C. rounds, there will be no immediate appreciable loss in accuracy. Furthermore, the decline in accuracy for Cordite ammunition will follow the normal gradual fall-off experience in weapons firing Cordite alone, as the wear at C of R progresses.

4. Trials have proved that even if only a few rounds of Cordite ammunition are fired from an "N.C." barrel, the ensuing accuracy life when N.C. is subsequently fired is reduced considerably. The occasional and restricted use of N.C. in a "Cordite" barrel will however, have little effect on its ensuing accuracy life for Cordite, although naturally the fire of N.C. will not be very accurate.

5. The effect of wear of barrels can be determined by firing shots through a paper screen at 100 yards. If, on examination of the screen, all shot holes are not perfectly round, then the barrel is no longer fit for use.
The danger lies in the fact that bullets fired erratically from badly worn barrels may overcome their instability in flight and take up a steady flight in the direction in which they happen to be pointing, with short-ranging and disastrous results if used for overhead fire. Except under these conditions of long-range firing there is no risk involved, though in normal range firing inaccurate fire will result.

6. The following instructions regarding the use of .303-in ammunition have been issued to users and are governed by stocks and types of ammunition and weapons in current use:-

(a) .303 in. Vickers M.G.s in M.G. Bns.

(i)Mk.8z only will be used for overhead firing.
(ii) Mixed belts, i.e. Ball, Tracer, A.P., etc., will NOT be used.
(iii) Any barrel which has fired Cordite ammunition will NOT be used for N.C.; barrels will be stamped “7” on the trunnion block and returned to R.A.O.C. through normal channels.
(iv) Barrel life for N.C. will be assessed by unit armourers using the appropriate gauges.

(b) .303 in. Vickers M.G.s in A.F.V.s.

Here the overhead fire problem is not considered; the range is usually less than is the case with ground M.G.s. tracer ammunition is required as an aid to fire control, and prolonged fire programmes are not envisaged. Special mixed belts of Mk.8z and Tracer are provided in boxes clearly marked “For use in A.F.V.s only”. The reduced life of the barrels is accepted.

(c) Light M.G.s.

Cordite ammunition normally will be used. N.C. ammunition, however, gives a relatively small flash at night and if the Bren is being used for a special purpose, e.g., on a patrol, its use is permitted.

(d) Rifles.

N.C. ammunition will not be used in rifles except in such circumstances as quoted in para. “(c)”
above, if necessity should arise.

7. Belt packed S.A.A. for M.G.s is packed in boxes which are clearly marked with labels or stenciling indicating its proper use. It will never be de-belted and used for practice purposes in L.M.G.s or rifles.

8. It must be noted that the above restrictions apply only to ammunition fired from British weapons. All American ammunition is N.C. loaded and their weapons are designed to fire it satisfactorily.

Cordite was effectively 'dropped' in Britain as a small arms propellent in 1959, but was still manufactured in South Africa until (at least) 1961, and it is believed, but unconfirmed, that India and maybe Pakistan (PoF) were still producing it much later.

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milprileb

· #9 · 3 d ago

Sir, Nice spread of British rifles. If you can get use of a bore scope, you'll see its nefarious damage in some of your rifles which fired issue British ammo up thru WWII . Your No.5 bore is not shiny ...looking a bit rough, that ain't sloppy barrel making , its the regrettable aftermath of corrosive 303 issue ammo made with cordite propellant. Now, as Alan's data has stated, your muzzle could still impart enough spin to give adequate accuracy even if the bore has cordite damage.

I once looked with a bore scope at such a barrel with cordite damage and I hope no colonoscopy of mine ever shows that wear & tear LOL LOL.

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Rufenig

· #10 · 3 d ago

milprileb said:
I once looked with a bore scope at such a barrel with cordite damage and I hope no colonoscopy of mine ever shows that wear & tear LOL LOL.

I don't think that borescopes should be allowed near old or milsurpless guns!
Some people never recover from the shock of what they see.
Just get out and run some correct spec ammo through it! 🙂

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milprileb

· #11 · 3 d ago

Rufenig said:
I don't think that borescopes should be allowed near old or milsurpless guns!
Some people never recover from the shock of what they see.
Just get out and run some correct spec ammo through it! 🙂

This is the reason I don't own a borescope. If rifle is shooting well and I' m happy, turn the page.