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Discussion Starter #1
Howdy Gents
I recently picked up this MkIV in a three gun lot I purchased, I mostly collect firearms from WWI and earlier models that were also used in the great war so I had'nt paid much attention to this MkIV thinking it was just another WWII issue revolver.
On finally getting around to cleaning it up I found to my surprise that it was a commercial model that had apparently been issued to a police department.
ON the butt is stamped TPFO . 91, I'm guessing that this might be Toronto Police Force, Rack number 91, If any one can confirm my guess or let me know what TPFO.91 means I'd appreciate it.
I saw on the other post that these in the A series were made between 1947 - 1957, This one is Serial # A49391 so its slightly newer than Epidoc's MkIV.
It has a four inch barrel, No safety and a standard size grip There is no provision for a lanyard ring. Other than some pitting on the cylinder and butt its in pretty good shape. I fired it last weekend and it functioned perfectly and was much more accurate than I had expected to be.
I'm pretty happy now that I bought this, Its turned out to be more interesting than I had expected it to be.
Willy B'
 

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The commercial website of Bob Adams currently depicts a Toronto Police Mark IV revolver, described as bearing "TPD" and not "TPF," with the same frame and butt and likewise without lanyard ring provision, although the matte finish and other features of Adams' suggest it is a gun later than yours.
The commercial website of Collectible Firearms currently depicts a Toronto Mark IV s/n A76 thousand marked "T.P.F. 725" and it resembles yours greatly.
 

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Bruce & Reinhart's "Webley Revolvers" shows a .442 Webley RIC with TPF markings attributed to Toronto (page 67). I have a Tranter and a Colt Police Positive with TPF markings as well. Joel Black might know more as he is researching in this area.
 

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The TPF .442 revolvers came with iron "skull crusher" butcaps in place of the lanyard loop. The one in the book is missing the iron. The TPF's went out in two shipments 1912 and 1914.

Any idea of the dates TPF issued the Colt Police Positive?

Best regards,

Greg
 

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Discussion Starter #5
It looks like it most likely was issued to the Toronto Police, I would imagine the stamp being used depended on what was most politically correct at the time, Police Force or Police Department also might have been used interchangeably.
Thanks for firming up my theory on what department it had belonged to.
I'm totally awestruck by the information available from members of this forum, Webley info is a bit hard to come by, So I very much appreciate the education I'm getting here.
Thanks All
Willy B'
 

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TPF No. 712 is a Colt Police Positive .32 caliber made in 1921.

I am not sure we have confirmed anything. There are other cities in Canada that might also work such as Timmins. I have found Atlas's to be very helpful in determing city markings as they give you spelling and relative population size.

Willy B's gun Post WWII gun with an inventory number 91 is out of sequence with a 1921 gun numbered 712. If you argue that the numbers were model dependent-then they needed over 700 Colts in 1920?

These are just my thoughts on the matter.

A word of warning to the newer collectors, don't believe all that the dealers tell you about markings. They are there to push product not do your research. I am sure some Toledo Ohio police Colts get attributed to Toronto as well.
 

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The TPF .442 revolvers came with iron "skull crusher" butcaps in place of the lanyard loop. The one in the book is missing the iron. The TPF's went out in two shipments 1912 and 1914.

Any idea of the dates TPF issued the Colt Police Positive?

Best regards,

Greg
Greg,
I think Richard Milner wasn't explicit enough in his letter to you. Even though some of those in that shipment were skull crushers, those were very much in the minority. Most of them were neither threaded for the weight, nor had a hole for a lanyard ring. Whenever I speak to Richard, I direct myself to to his lovely wife Molly. She interprets my question to him and interprets his answer to me. Its just like the United Nations. LOL
 

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Hi all. I'm new to this forum and not quite sure how to start a new thread. While not meaning to hijack this one, does anyone know of a good parts source for the MkIV revolver. I just acquired one that needs a new ejector and Numrich seems to have none right now.
 

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Hi all. I'm new to this forum and not quite sure how to start a new thread. While not meaning to hijack this one, does anyone know of a good parts source for the MkIV revolver. I just acquired one that needs a new ejector and Numrich seems to have none right now.
I am wondering about that. Is the ejector damaged or are you finding it does not snap back when the revolver is opened? that is an entirely different problem
 

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Timmins did not mark its revolvers...I checked with an old friend who was a member of the force. There was a concerted effort in Canada to change from FORCE to DEPARTMENT and then to SERVICE. Different cities changed at different times. It was more "politically correct" to be a Department than a Force and then it became Service. I still have a few contacts in the Toronto PD so I will attempt to get some dates and post them. Force is first, Department is second and Service is last.
 

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Hi again (John),
Re. the broken extractor:
It raises out of the cylinder and snaps back okay.
The locating pin that fits into the little hole in the cylinder is missing. (I imagine that a previous owner tried undoing the extractor nut without putting a couple of spent rounds in the chambers and snapped it off).
Anyhow, when the hand pushes the dogs on the inside of the extractor, the extractor is free to move slightly out of alignment with the rest of the cylinder resulting in the chambers misaligning and the stop-pawl beginning to bind against the slots in the cylinder as you thumb back the hammer. If it was an engine, I'd call it "Out-of time due to a missing woodruff key."
I didn't notice the problem before bidding, the action seemed to work rather well, but as I began cleaning it up at home, it was the first thing I noticed. The extractor seems not to have then pivoted away from its alignment with the cylinder because all of the coagulated grease around the pin and axis. (I had to remove the holster-spreader/cylinder retainer completely and then work for around 20 minutes with liberal applications of aerosol penetrating oil just to slide the cylinder off of its axis.)
Anyhow, everything else looks okay. I guess I could get a gunsmith to put a new pin on the extractor, but that would probably cost loads more than a new extractor. I got the revolver cheap so no regrets, happy to have it in the case with it's sisters, a .455 MkIV,a MkVI, and an Enfield No2 MkI* and, of course, trying to solve the problem has lead me to this excellent forum (or group of forums) I've already spent 3 or 4 hours just reading here.
Bill
 

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Be careful with a new extractor star Bill. I think that you will find that it may not quite line up with your chambers. The missing pin is just that, a missing pin. Any half decent gunsmith should be able to drill out the broken old one and fit a short piece of "wire".

Peter
 

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The breakage of that pin is a very common problem with Webleys, although I'm not sure how people managed to achieve it. The only time I saw one, it was possible to unscrew the stump using a large, sharp needle on the irregularities of the break.

If that doesn't work it is probably quite hard, and difficult to drill. I would use a small carbide drill bit in an Archimedean drill (One of the kind with a spiral shaft and a little bobbin you slide3 up and down by hand) since electric Dremel tools usually break those tiny drills when used freehand. Theb I'd see if a needle jammed hand-tight in the resulting hole would unscrew it.

I forget what the thread is, but I did find a die to suit. It might have been the BA thread, for which dies do sell on eBay etc. But if not, you could probably find an American number thread for which the hole can be tapped, and which would still admit the pin into the holes. Drilling out the six holes in the cylinder seems fraught with hazards.

The revolver is just like a mint, unfired one which the Metropolitan Police in London bought, put into store, and sold off a quarter-century earlier. It was confiscated by Her Majesty the Queen (whom I don't blame personally, being badly advised). I got £120 in compensation, despite having paid £95. Well, money's only money, and a right is a right, but it's a comfort that they would have felt they were getting the dirty end of the stick. It was often the other way around.

Joel, the United Nations do it simultaneously.
 

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Peter,
Do you mean that an undamaged extractor star might have its pin located in a slightly different position? I haven't ever done any parts swapping on these, so don't know how finicky they might be.
My SMLE has stock parts from two other rifles (old home made sporter stock had to go) and a bolt head and firing pin from bins at a gun show (headspace correction) so seems very tolerant of cannibalised parts. Same with Remington Model 11 that I have totally rebuilt from God only knows what parts. Maybe I'll stop at the gunsmith and see what he says.
Thanks Peter and all of you.
Bill
 

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There is a reason why pistols came to be prefered to revolvers Bill. You could take the bits for a pistol from a row of bins, assemble it, and it would work; revolvers were always hand fitted. Look at any old revolver Colt, S&W, Webley, etc, they all have some sort of assembly number on most of the parts [in the case of your Webley the last digits of the frame serial number]. CNC machines may have changed things these days, but your revolver pre-dates CNC.

I believe that the extractor star was most probably machined in situ. In any case a new pin is going to be easier, cheaper and certain to give correct alignment.

Peter
 

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Germans numbered most parts of their automatics and there is a famous story (with no names I ever heard, so perhaps it's apocraphyl) of a Brit officert who got in a "duel" with a German officer in WWI. Killed the German with his Webley, took the Luger and concluded that the sideplate was mismatched so the Luger didn't go off. And supposedly the Brits didn't proceed with their procurement of Spanish .455 revolvers during WWI because of the abysmal interchangeability of parts between them.
Having said that, revolvers did generally need a bit of handfitting on some parts to get them fo function or fit.
I'd guess manufacturing tolerances have come a long way so that perhaps your observation about pistols parts put together vs. revolver parts put together is a lot more true now than it may have been almost 100 years ago.
I'd guess the M1911 in its early form was more interchangeable than a lot of its competitors in the semi-auto field.
 
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