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Amsterdam to close pot cafes, brothels (failure of 3rd party philosophy)

3K views 112 replies 31 participants last post by  ErsatzBayonet 
#1 ·
I love how looney liberterians (I know that was redundant) claim that legalization REMOVES the influence of organized crime and, what is even more funny, is that they point to Amsertdam as evidence of said "success".

Well let's see what the Dutch have to say about it......shall we?

;->

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Amsterdam to close many brothels, marijuana cafes

AMSTERDAM, Netherlands (AP) - Amsterdam unveiled plans Saturday to close brothels, sex shops and marijuana cafes in its ancient city center as part of a major effort to drive organized crime out of the tourist haven.

The city is targeting businesses that "generate criminality," including gambling parlors, and the so-called "coffee shops" where marijuana is sold openly. Also targeted are peep shows, massage parlors and souvenir shops used by drug dealers for money-laundering.

"I think that the new reality will be more in line with our image as a tolerant and crazy place, rather than a free zone for criminals" said Lodewijk Asscher, a city council member and one of the main proponents of the plan.

The news comes just one day after Amsterdam's mayor said he would search for loopholes in new rules laid down by the national government that would close marijuana cafes near schools citywide. The measures announced Saturday would affect about 36 coffee shops in the center itself - a little less than 20 percent of the city total.
 
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#2 ·
I doubt there is much criminal Activity around the coffee shops.......I can understand crime occuring near the brothels/peep shows/Gambling parlors.......but I doubt the POT smokers are commiting many crimes.....it looks like they just want the shops out of the down-town area.....a simple matter of relocation.....
 
#5 ·
Okay, now he's at a loss for what to say.

First, deny what the city officials have said. If we can't prove that the officials of AMSTERDAM are wrong, we're in deep-shit.

God how I love watching your whole little world crumble before us Ghostcat.

Just admit it, you were wrong.
 
#3 ·
Been there, loads of fun from what I remember. Much slimier than Bourbon Street. Make sure if they are doing those live sex shows in the cargo nets suspended from the ceiling that you don't sit too close. One of my backpacking buddies got gleeked on. The prostitutes sit in stools in front of plate glass windows or glass doors, i.e. "how much is that hooker in the window". I reckon that's over now.
 
#4 ·
I love how looney liberterians (I know that was redundant) claim that legalization REMOVES the influence of organized crime and, what is even more funny, is that they point to Amsertdam as evidence of said "success".
You're a complete ignoramus. A true idiot. Please don't vote or have children, save the world from more of this.
 
#11 ·
Canada has strict gun laws, but the length of open frontier with the US means that only law-abiding people have to obey them. There is certainly some organised crime, but the big difference in armed violence of all kinds is due at least in part to Canadians not being as keen on shooting people.

I've been in Amsterdam too, and if morality doesn't keep people clear of the brothel business, practical virology ought to. Legal or not, they still have to employ people, and the limited availability of the traditional cheap whore in a prosperous society, means openings for often involuntary human trafficking from Eastern Europe, the Far East, etc.
 
#13 ·
Brussel is right. The queer and GC are the idiots here. Why, if their is no relation between pot and organized crime, are they removing the pot areas from downtown? Its basically the largets tourist drive they have.....So why remove it unless its become a problem? Yeah, thats right, they hate taking money from ghostcat and the queer! When we tell the whores that the queer lives in his basement, and rapes his family instead of working, maybe they won't mind taking it from him.....

Brussel, funny thing is, this will only get better. They have obviously drawn the link between pot, prostitution, and organized crime. And they are taking action. Thing that really pisses me off at the people who advocate drug legalization is that I don't want america turning into amsterdam. Place is filthy, disgusting. I don't want to live in vegas or amsterdam: thats why we have 747's and 737's....so they idiots can fly their instead of turning our naighborhoods into replicas.
 
#17 ·
But Ruskie, I was under the impression that if we legalized the crap that would remove the influence of organized crime.

I'm so confused here.

Maybe Ghostcat can expalin how this works?
 
#16 · (Edited)
Reading the entire news report might give a better picture. It takes a while to get to the real meat of the story:

Under the plan announced Saturday, Amsterdam will spend $38-$51 million to bring hotels, restaurants, cultural organizations and boutiques to the center. It will also build new underground parking areas for cars and bikes and may use some of the vacated buildings to ease a housing shortage.

Looks like they are just as interested in rebuilding the city center into a more attractive place. While I'm sure there is a problem the crime "angle" is a popular justification for moving in and taking over the property.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,463004,00.html
 
#22 ·
Dude, you've been repudiated, again.

Just take your false religion and go away.

Go to Amsterdam where it is supposedly a uptopia of drug laws.

You're a bigger joke than even before. I never thought that was possible.
 
#24 ·
jesus....Ok guys, lets legalize everything that people do, because then, when NOTHING is illegal, their will be no crime! Man, amazing how that works.

No, how about, grow up, be a man, make some responcible decisions in your life (unlike mousequeer) and don't smoke pot. The mousequuer will do it, I mean, he doesn't pay his grandparents rent or anything, so the 5.25 he makes at wal mart has to go somewhere right?

Why not crack, or heroin? Why not meth? In fact, when we legalize meth it will make the entire universe safer, because homemade meth labs are dangerous.....hmm, easy solution: legalize it!

Man, lets take this further.....13 year old girls getting abortions, hmm, this is a hard one: legalize it! Make sex with children legal, then we won't have to pay money to prosecute those who commit this act either! Yay!

Ghost cat and mousequeer, we need to remove MORE responcibility from our country. We don't suffer from enough of a lack of responcibility in this country.....We need to really let loose on the reins right?

No, its just that the arrogant dumbass who rapes his family, and the hippe troll both subscribe to the idea that no morality and responcibility IS morality and responcibility. The end justifies the means for them. Another appropriate one would be 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions'.
 
#40 ·
jesus....Ok guys, lets legalize everything that people do, because then, when NOTHING is illegal, their will be no crime! Man, amazing how that works.
Please show us where we've argued for that?


Does anyone not remember the lessons from Prohibition? We banned a certain addictive substance and organized crime sky rocketed.
 
#26 ·
the war on drugs is a complete and utter failure - there has never even been a semblance of winning - supply will always rise to meet demand - that demand has always been there - and always be there - i will say that most recreational drugs should be illegal - but marijuana ? uh - alcohol is a dangerous drug - tobacco is a dangerous drug - every day how many people get drunk - run over telophone poles - or get in accidents and kill people - or beat their wives - ask any cop - they know - you ever seen a pothead burn one - get in their car and drive like a maniac ?nope - sloooooooow - and likely on the way to get some burgers - hahahhahahahh - i say legalize it - tax it - and use all that tax money to make college education free - at least that way we can do something positive for the whole country - because we spend millions of tax dollars a year on marijuana interdiction and jailing them - but does that stop anyone - i mean ANYONE - who wants it from getting it ? nope - in fact its probably easier for underage kids to get that than alcohol
 
#27 ·
I agree.....praise the lord and pass the heroin and meth! Man, this living with no consequences, no responcibility is great! Now I know why mousequeer lives out of his grandparents basement still!

Can I also go out and get a few credit cards and max them out? Then let tax payers pay for that too? I mean, lets not skimp out on ALL responcibility now. If we are going to bow to those who have no morals, no idea of right and wrong, live to be a problem for society, we might as well just go full steam ahead......Maybe e can ALL get a few cards! And let everyone else pay for it! Yayyyyyyy!
 
#28 ·
The war on drugs hasn't even been fought, so it's hard to call it a failure.

Start killing dope-dealers on the spot, just like a real-war, and we'll start on the path to victory.


The best dope-dealer is a dead one I say.
 
#30 ·
And you dare to have a quote about liberty in your signature?



BRussell, I reiterate, don't vote or have children. Have yourself sterilized, don't pollute the gene pool.
 
#31 ·
The parallels between drug control and gun control have always been interesting. Seriously, look it up.
 
#33 ·
lower drug use reported among teens in netherlands

they watch the subset of dopers resident and foreign and decide against it??? at a certain age we just want to be outlaws, and when that behaivior is legal adolescents just might tend to ignore it
my theory anyway
gil
 
#49 ·
Well we know you hide in the dark like a cockroach, I've yet to have my principles tested.

We know you've failed the test.

Ya POTHEAD.
 
#58 ·
Hmmm pot is evil eh?

hmmm why is it the 2nd or third crop in many states? as far as revenue?
russell why dont you go bunny hoppiing through the mountains of california ketucky tennessee oklahoma virgina whatever spouting your rhetoric and see how long you last. you do realize its not uncommon to find plantations of over 50k plants. I found four grows last year alone.

they prohibited alchohol and it didnt work. 875 thousand people a year are busted for possession think of how many are not busted and for some dumb reaqson we believ after 75 years of prohibition it will go away?

if you believe that.... want to buy ocean front property in arizona? there are even some states where its the number one crop and yet we are dumb enough not to tax it or regulate it like alcohol
 
#71 ·
The usual degeneration of a promising post, due to lack of the proper attitude about the subjects: Amsterdam, pot and whores.

How about we switch this one to a discussion of how to set up a fund to collect enough money to send Mauserboy on an all expenses paid trip to Amsterdam?

But we'd better hurry, raise the money fast, so he can lose his virginity before the brothels are closed.
 
#102 · (Edited)
Attacking the problem from the "market side"

The usual degeneration of a promising post, due to lack of the proper attitude about the subjects: Amsterdam, pot and whores.
What about Sweeden's solution for the oldest profession. Making it legal to sell but illegal to buy (and crack down hard) is an approach that bears consideration for: prostitution, drugs, illegal immigration.

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Sweden's Prostitution Solution:
Why Hasn't Anyone Tried This Before?

http://www.justicewomen.com/cj_sweden.html

In a centuries deep sea of clichés despairing that 'prostitution will always be with us', one country's success stands out as a solitary beacon lighting the way. In just five years Sweden has dramatically reduced the number of its women in prostitution. In the capital city of Stockholm the number of women in street prostitution has been reduced by two thirds, and the number of johns has been reduced by 80%. There are other major Swedish cities where street prostitution has all but disappeared. Gone too, for the most part, are the renowned Swedish brothels and massage parlors which proliferated during the last three decades of the twentieth century when prostitution in Sweden was legal.

In addition, the number of foreign women now being trafficked into Sweden for sex is nil. The Swedish government estimates that in the last few years only 200 to 400 women and girls have been annually sex trafficked into Sweden, a figure that's negligible compared to the 15,000 to 17,000 females yearly sex trafficked into neighboring Finland. No other country, nor any other social experiment, has come anywhere near Sweden's promising results.

By what complex formula has Sweden managed this feat? Amazingly, Sweden's strategy isn't complex at all. It's tenets, in fact, seem so simple and so firmly anchored in common sense as to immediately spark the question, "Why hasn't anyone tried this before?"

Sweden's Groundbreaking 1999 Legislation

In 1999, after years of research and study, Sweden passed legislation that a) criminalizes the buying of sex, and b) decriminalizes the selling of sex. The novel rationale behind this legislation is clearly stated in the government's literature on the law:

"In Sweden prostitution is regarded as an aspect of male violence against women and children. It is officially acknowledged as a form of exploitation of women and children and constitutes a significant social problem... gender equality will remain unattainable so long as men buy, sell and exploit women and children by prostituting them."

In addition to the two pronged legal strategy, a third and essential element of Sweden's prostitution legislation provides for ample and comprehensive social service funds aimed at helping any prostitute who wants to get out, and additional funds to educate the public. As such, Sweden's unique strategy treats prostitution as a form of violence against women in which the men who exploit by buying sex are criminalized, the mostly female prostitutes are treated as victims who need help, and the public is educated in order to counteract the historical male bias that has long stultified thinking on prostitution. To securely anchor their view in firm legal ground, Sweden's prostitution legislation was passed as part and parcel of the country's 1999 omnibus violence against women legislation.
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The article goes on to talk about some of the pros and cons of the various approaches.

I'm not an advocate of the "men are evil" tenor that creeps into the article, but attacking some of these problems from the "market side" might be an interesting approach.
 
#75 ·
OK a few things,
Canadian organized crime is reported in CANADA, not in the U.S. Its a different country.
Drugs should be legaized because people have the right to what they put in their own bodies?
So you wouldn't mind a surgeon operating on you after he smoked a joint to steady his hand?
You wouldn't mind a doper aircraft mechanic working on the commercial jet you plan to fly on?
You completely trust that guy working on your brakes when he is coming down from a "high"
Aside from all that, are you completely unaware what someone on crack or meth has done to their health?
Do you want to be in the same road with someone "HIGH" on the drug of their choice?

Oh I know that you will say they smoke or inject that stuff only at home, but that has proven to NOT be the case.
Do you not mind the drug murders by competing Mexican cartels? Come on down to Tucson or Phoenix, we have a lot of them. Two last night, and a bunch this year. Oddly enough ALL the victims have hispanic names.

Last of all my nephew was Murdered by a drunk ILLEGAL mexican in a borrowed car with No insurance, and No licence who crossed the centerline and hit him head on.
Yes they called it an "accident" but thats NOT what I call it.:mad:
 
#76 ·
Your argument is identical to that utilized by those who would eliminate private ownership of guns: People shouldn't be allowed to have it because of what they might do with it.

Not sure where your nephew's death came in, but I'm sorry to hear that happened.
 
#83 ·
I spent a couple of decades doing a lot of criminal defense. A lot of the cases arose from drug possession and use. Including a lot of offenses where there was nothing in the indictment or information saying anything about drugs (say - 60-70% of the burglary cases and other property crimes involved users, who were in many cases using the proceeds to support their habit). Had a lot of contact with drunk drivers, too, and people who did dumb things while drunk that got them into trouble with the law (a lot of assaults are drunken brawls, and probably over half the killings you see involve folks who are impaired from alcohol or something else). And a lot of contact with the cops who enforce the laws, including the dope patrol ("Anti-drug Task Forces" they often call themselves).

Conclusion from that perspective: we're d*mn fools to try and suppress "recreational" drugs - which are like alcohol in that people are going to get and use them irregardless of the laws prohibiting same. The amount of money we spend on suppression, together with the degree of corruption (and it ain't all in Mexico, my friends - plenty of bent cops up here, most of whom are protected by the others in that line of work instead of being turned in and prosecuted) costs us far more than legalization would. The model of NAtional Prohibition is pretty exact - no legal source, plenty of demand, the criminals provide (and bribe cops and prosecutors and commit violence to protect their franchise). We didn't ahve organized crime until NAtional Prohibition made it really profitable. Now - well, there ain't a lot of criminal distribution of booze, but the same guys who got rich handling booze during NAtional Prohibition are richer doing drug import and distribution now,. and we probably can't get rid of them. But - we can reduce their influence on society by legalizing the stuff and making it readily available in taxed, known purity form from licensed outlets.

We can also put a lot more cops on the streets to deal with DUI and non-drug crimes, which will be a positive. One of the few...

I'd prefer a way to get rid of the junk, but it ain't gonna happen, so reduce criminal involvement is the best i can see. And make a buck on the taxes to help finance public purposes without the corruption.
 
#84 ·
This I have first hand experience with. From the age of 13 to 30 I was an addict and alcoholic. I've been sober for over 18 years. Drugs and alcohol impair your judgement during use and when you come down. I feel sorry for people who are addicted, it's a sad place to be, also in excess it damages your body and spirit. I have nothing against the occasional user who has it under control. The problem is that you don't know if you are an addict or sensible user until it's to late. As for legalization it's a double edged sword. Just my two bits.
 
#85 ·
This I have first hand experience with. From the age of 13 to 30 I was an addict and alcoholic. I've been sober for over 18 years. Drugs and alcohol impair your judgement during use and when you come down. I feel sorry for people who are addicted, it's a sad place to be, also in excess it damages your body and spirit. I have nothing against the occasional user who has it under control. The problem is that you don't know if you are an addict or sensible user until it's to late. As for legalization it's a double edged sword. Just my two bits.
Oh yeah - it surely is. There are a LOT of down-sides to legal alcohol, legal pot, legal other drugs. It is just that, as best I can tell from the historical example of National Prohibition and what I have observed in the current "War of Drugs" - illegalization has even more...

It should be noted that I had reached this conclusion - and stated it - even when much of my income depended on people getting caught with dope.
 
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