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Discussion Starter #1
Liberty
Posted - 04/07/2004 : 07:51:29 AM
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Here are a few cartridges i could use some more opinions on. At the moment i just cant get a good close up picture of.

1.brass case C.A. B-42 bullet copper jacket, exposed tip, steel core (magnetic) a circumferal partition line .375 from the tip. crimped.

2.brass case B.P B-11 bullet white metal non magnetic, .25 exposed soft point large circumferal partition (visable in the picture), crimped.

3. brass case F.P C-03 X at 9 oclock, cupero-nickle? Nicklish color, non magnetic, exposed lead tip. crimped.

4. brass case C.A D-40 bullet brass colored, seems like brass, large exposed tip, almost a mild hollowpoint, nonmagnetic, 3 slits along the bullet starting .25 from the tip. the bullet seemed a litle loose, so being the curious type i started to pull it out. the thing pulled out to 1.75 exposed with more in the case!!! i pushed it back in. the slits seem to run the whole way. also crimped.

What do you think?

Picture did not survive
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DocAV
Posted - 04/07/2004 : 08:44:35 AM
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All your 6,5s are "Specials"

#1: Inspector "C.A", Bologna 1942; Magistri type Training cartridge, two piece frangible jacket, NOT steel core, but plated steel jacket.
Rare and desireable..

#2: Inspector Pietro Boragine, Bologna 1911, Cupro-nickel jacket, Short range gallery type load. With this date, also very desireable.

#3: Inspector "F.P." Capua 1903, "X" Solenite Load (to distinguish it from earlier balistite Load); Short range gallery type.

#4. Inspector "C.A.", Bologna (should be "B", not "D"...may be bad strike of bunter) 1940. Guard or Riot cartridge (Cartuccia a Mitraglia--Literally "grapeshot" cartridge): pre-grooved multiple core bullet, jacket rips off on exiting barrel, separating split core into numerous small hemi-cylindrical sections about 3mm long each, plus jacket strips and small pellet nose cap. Used for crowd control and Barracks guards.
Bullet is almost as long as the case (47mm long Bullet).

All your samples are nowadays considered rare and very desireable, especially the 1903 short range one.

All these Specials tended to be mixed into the big clean out of italian Ammo which occurred in the late 50s ealry 60s, into those asnonymous 50 round boxes of Repacked ammo ( Ammunition warehouse sweepings and repacked Breda and M91 Clipped ammo.
I have found all sorts of headstamps and varieties in this type of Repack 6,5 carcano ammo. ( over 150 different H/S and loading variations.)



Liberty
Posted - 04/07/2004 : 12:57:45 PM
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DocAV, thanks for your response. This ammunition was mixed in with regular ball on rifle clips. #4 even magnified its tough to tell the B or D marking. Also included in this lot were some lacquer coated steel cases that leave the date and inspector marks unreadable. I am not sure how common there are. The Guard or Riot cartridge alows the bullet to be pressed back into place with out resistance. Can ther be much powder to displace?



DocAV
Posted - 04/07/2004 : 7:08:04 PM
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Further to the Specials Posting, the Steel cased Carcano ammo was made with German technical Assistance from about 1941-2 onwards, to 1944 at least. By the end of 1944, all the major manufacturers in italy had fallen to the Allies (Capua 43, Bologna 44) leaving only Genoa and Milan ( BPD and LBC and Fiocchi (GFL) in operation during 1945. Steel cased ammo of any type usually has a lower shelf life, especially in the poor conditions in Italy during and after WW II, as well as that which has come from Yugoslavia and Albania...very poor survival rate for steel cased 6,5.



tbaus
Posted - 04/07/2004 : 11:58:03 PM
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If I could piggyback on to this thread, I have a question about 6 rounds of 6.5 Carcano ammo I have. The headstamp is S.A. C 53. It has an exposed tip and appears to be a two piece bullet with a circumferal partition line as described by CL in his #1 cartridge. Do you know anything about this one.. what it is, collectability?



DocAV
Posted - 04/10/2004 : 12:50:20 AM
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Again, the SA C53 is post war (1953) Magistri Indoor training ammo
"indoor" is a relative term, it can mean everything from a miniature range (25 metres)to a completely Walled-in Shooting range of 200 or 300 metres -still very common today in Italy, but mostly abandoned and in disrepair. During the pre-war and immediate post war periods they were very much in use. The frangibility of the bullet was to prevent dangerous "overshoot".

A collectible item. Post war Magistri cartridges are rare.



tbaus
Posted - 04/11/2004 : 5:19:19 PM
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Thanks DocAV... I appreciate the information. You used the wording "Again, the SA C53". Did I miss something in your earlier post? Thanks again. Good shootin'...
 

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Discussion Starter #2
LBC = Léon Beaux, Milano

DocAV
Posted - 05/27/2004 : 9:30:52 PM
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Leon Beaux & Co, Milan, 1936.

LBC had been making shotshells since the 1800s, and made pistol and rifle ammo during WW I, and through to the 1930s and 1940s.
After WW II, went back to making Shotshells for the commercial market, and .30 M1 carbine ammo for the Italian Government

Entire M1 carbine ammo production line sold to Squires Bingham of the Philippines in the 1970s, and they use it to make .30 M1 Carbine and .223 etc.

LBC brand is still used for shotshells, but as a company it is defunct.
As one would desume from the name, the owners were originally French and Jewish; that came to an end in 1938 (Italian anti-Jewish Laws) and the Plant was occupied by the Germans in 1943 till 1945.

Your "Box" of ammo, if it is a 50 round anonymous carton, is 1950s REPACK for Milsurp sale: if you have 20 or 40 rounds of LBC in VGC, it's because they came from stripped down Breda Chargers (20 rounds)
The remaining cartridges will probably be either from 6-round rifle clips or other Breda Chargers.
This repacking was done by Italian Ammo depots, so all types of am,mo from the 1890s to the 1960s will be found (I have over 150 different examples of 6,5 ball, Guard, Frangible etc Cartridges which came from these "50 rounders" back in the 80s and 90s; Some quite rare examples as well (pre 1920s)

A lot of this stuff will just NOT fire (primers gone)
So beware: it may look good, but be useless (primers are Berdan, .204" (Unobtainium) mercuric and corrosive).

Regards, Doc AV
PS, use single flash hole cases)
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Z.g. C-36

Galaxieman
Posted - 11/23/2004 : 04:33:05 AM
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I just picked up a few rounds of the old round nosed ammo for 'display' with my Carcano. Curious as to their origins, at 12 o'clock is "Z.G." and "C-36" (date code(?) of March 1936) at 6 o'clock.



Gianluca
Italy
Posted - 11/23/2004 : 3:37:12 PM
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C is the stamp of "Pirotecnico di Capua", the factory that made the cartridge. ZG are the initials of inspector Zangari Gaetano. 36 is the manufacturing year.



Galaxieman
Posted - 11/23/2004 : 3:53:49 PM
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Thanks Gianluca.
My grandfathers name is Gaetano. Interesting, they reverse their initials putting their sirname first?



DocAV
Posted - 11/23/2004 : 4:08:15 PM
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Yes, Typical Italian burocratic practice...Surname first, given Name afterwards.



Galaxieman
Posted - 11/23/2004 : 6:53:50 PM
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Must be a metric thing.



DocAV
Posted - 11/24/2004 : 07:31:20 AM
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As far as burocracy is concerned, actually Napoleonic (but then Napoleon ensured the French "Metric" system was employed throughout Europe as a "Rational" system of measurement... it was the "age of reason" anyway.
The use of the Family name first derived from the keeping of Municipal tax rolls and Draft Enlistment Rolls. In the case of multiple similar names ( sometimes related, sometimes not) the year of Birth was also included ( the year of birth was of importance in Military draft recording, as draftees were called up by "classes" as in Birth Cohorts, usually in their 20th year.

British Welsh regiments used a similar method, but with the regimental number. (the commonplace "Jones 4317" and " "Jones 3568") for the widespread similarity of names in Wales (think of all the Joneses, Smiths, Lloyds, Llewellyns, etc).

Interesting How European Burocracy impinges on Gun collecting, in more ways than one can imagine.



Gianluca
Posted - 11/24/2004 : 11:05:15 AM
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I confess I ignored the genesis of this habit, which is tipically italian. I do not know it is linked to the “metric Idea”, but you will agree with me that there is a logical reason behind this.
Lets’ think to a Telephone Directory, which is organized by surnames, as any other list of people. So it could comes easy to put surname first when you write your name.
Be careful that this is an habit, not a rule. Lots of italian people use to put their name first, and consequently their initials too.



francesco
Italy
Posted - 11/24/2004 : 2:34:39 PM
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Welcome Gianluca
The old italian system for identity or signature was:

Surname, name, father name (with the word "fu" (was) if he was died).

Example:
"Mario Rossi, fu Giuseppe"
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Help with box of 6.5 Carcano

Franchi
Posted - 09/07/2005 : 4:35:08 PM
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I picked up a box of interesting 6.5 Carcano rounds (see photo links below), which I would like some help with.
.
It is the standard 18 round box with the cartridges on brass clips.
Box was un-opened when I got it.
.
Box is marked:
A PALLOTTOLA
Armi M.° 91 e Mitragliatrici
[ Colleferro | B.P.D. | 1935 ]
SOLENITE
--
There is an additional label glued on the left side of the box which reads:
Carttucce verificate dall'opeaia
Rizzi Anna
Taranto - novembre 1941
--
Can anyone translate the box and additional label?
I come up with this partial translation, don't know if it is correct.
.
Box label, my translation:
Army, Bullet
Weapon, Model 91, for, Machinegun
With iron, manufacturer "BPD", 1935
Solenite?
.
Why does this read for machinegun? If so what machinegun is it?
Is "Colleferro" with iron?
What is "SOLENITE"? (the powder?)
.
Glue on label, my translation:
Cartridge, verified/checked, for operation/working.
Rizzi Anna (date or factory?)
Taranto - novembre 1941 (city Taranto - November 1941.
--
The cartridges are brass cased and are headstamped: B.P.D. 35. the bullet is non-magnetic and nickel jacketed.
.
All three clips have their original manufacturer code and year stamped out with a straight line punch.
They appear to have been marked SMI* 31 & 36.
Why stamp out the clip markings? They hit the clip so hard that it has been distorted (see photo). This might cause problems in use?
.
Has anyone seen clip markings struck-out like this?

Thanks, David Franchi

PHOTOS:
Box Label
http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL439/2051017/4554207/111275647.jpg

"1941" Label
http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL439/2051017/4554207/111275650.jpg

Struck-out Clips
http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL439/2051017/4554207/111275654.jpg

Struck-out Clips Close-up
http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL439/2051017/4554207/111275657.jpg

End View of Damaged Clip
http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL439/2051017/4554207/111275661.jpg



francesco
Italy
Posted - 09/07/2005 : 5:34:11 PM
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Very nice box! My compliments :)
I think that could be a reworked box of ammos, after testing old cartridges (when ammos are older than 10 years, also today in Italian Army they were tested and repacked if still in good shape).

.
Box label:
ball ammos
for rifles 91 model and machineguns
"Colleferro" is the town were Bomprini Parodi Delfino (BPD) firm was in activity.

Solenite is the particular powder for these cartdriges
.
Glue on label:
Cartridge verified by femal worker "Anna Rizzi" (name and surname)
Taranto - novembre 1941 (city of Taranto - November 1941.
right :) - remember that Taranto is and was biggest Navy base in Italy.

Best regards
Francesco
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
6.5 Carcano in 50 Rounds Boxes

P264
Posted - 01/19/2007 : 8:31:55 PM
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I purchased several 50 round boxes of 6.5 Carcano thinking I would shoot it, but I am now having second thoughts that it might have collector value.

The head stamps are SMI 935. Does this mean it was made in 1935? The bullets are coated in some type of wax down to just before they enter the cartridge cases. Why coated bullets? The boxes are unmarked except for a hand written description by someone who cannot spell “Italian”. The boxes were at one time sealed with a thin paper strip. A pull string under the paper strip allows the seal to be easily broken. I have not seen Carcano ammunition in 50 round boxes before. Is this machine gun ammunition? Does this ammunition have any collector value?

Thanks for your comments
Marc

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/p264/200711920276_closed.JPG
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http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/p264/2007119202746_opened.JPG
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DMala
Posted - 01/20/2007 : 12:25:47 AM
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P264, the WWII or earlier military 6.5x52 ammo had already passed its useful lifespan in the '60s, due to deterioration of the brass and consequent frequent case ruptures. The boxes you found used to be relatively common, and were assembled well post-war with loose ammo of dubious origin. I would recommend not to shoot it, but if interested most likely the bullets and the solenite can be used in modern cases, with very good accuracy. I do have a couple of these boxes just as collection items, even if not strictly a military issue.



garand76
Posted - 01/20/2007 : 6:30:03 PM
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I have shot cartridges of the second world war and never it has not succeeded nothing to me (have been lucky). From the collection point of view if they had their box it with relative clip would have been itself interesting but therefore



DocAV
Posted - 01/22/2007 : 11:19:28 PM
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In the 1959-1960s period, Italy was selling off all its 6,5Inventory (rifles and ammunition.) They collected all the deposits of 6,5 Ammo across Italy were collected, and the ammo stripped of its clips (both rifle and 20 round breda LMG clips) and the ammo packed in the 50 round packets. The (Brass) clips were then scrapped as meltable brass.
The 50 round packs will usually be all one headstamp, if filled from Breada chargers, or a selection of headstamps if filled from Rifle clips.
Also one will find other 6,5 ammo varieties( Guard or Riot multiball, Short range frangible, proof cartridges, etc, all of which resemble the normal ball cartridge.) Dates will go from early 1900s to 1962 (last production year which made it to the Big Clean-out).

primers in a lot of years are(were) already gone by the 1970s, so much of this ammo will now be Compeonents (bullet and Powder) only.
The cases are Berdan (.204) Corrosive and probably age splitting (some). The primers were a size only made in italy, and have Not been Commercially available since the mid 1960s (in Italy).



johnnyboy
Posted - 01/23/2007 : 04:31:15 AM
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I have had these boxes of 50 as well ,some ammo shoots some doesn't, due to the primer quality



P264
Posted - 01/23/2007 : 9:10:13 PM
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Thanks all for your comments.

Since my earlier posting, I have opened all the boxes. Doc AV, you accurately described what I have. Of my 6 boxes, 2 boxes have only a single head stamp each for all 50 rounds. Another 2 boxes have 2 different head stamps per box. The cartridges in these 4 boxes are in pretty good condition as shown in the photos above.

The last 2 boxes contain 34 different head stamps between them. Dates range from 1913 (SMI 13) to 1949 (BPD 949). Three contract manufacturers (SMI, BPD, LBC) as well as 7 government arsenals (AA, BP, CA, LN, PV, TM, ZG) are represented. The condition of the cartridges range from crappy to as good as the other 4 boxes. I cannot tell if there are any non-ball varieties, but one head stamp stands out, “* SMI * 924”, where the * is a 5–pointed star. Since all the other SMI head stamps, including a “SMI 924” have no *, it makes me wonder if there is something unusual in about this one cartridge. These two boxes are sort of a starter kit for someone looking to make a collection of 6.5 mm Carcano cartridges.
Marc



DocAV
Posted - 01/23/2007 : 10:43:40 PM
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Italian headstamps include(for Government Arsenals, Bologna and Capua ("B"-date, and "C"-date) the initials reversed of the Chief Inspector in the facility.

I don't have all the names, but here are some:

SL: 1890s-1900s Count Luigi Scotti (Bologna)
AA: 1930s-40s Aldo Adamo
ZG : 1937-40 Gaetano Zangari
LN: Nicola Leggiadre
BP: Pietro Boragine (Bologna, late 1930s).

Official italian Suppliers are
Govt: Bologna (B) Succursale Bologna (SB) (WWI only)
Capua (C); Torino (T)---Not seen on 6,5mm cases, only known on 10,4 Vetterli and 10,4 Glisenti Revolver ammo.

Commercial:
SMI Societa Metallurgica Italiana (Campo Tizzoro, near Florence)
BPD Bombrini, Parodi, Delfino (Genoa and Rome)
LBC Leon Beaux & Co, Milan
M Martignoni ( only on 8mm Mannlicher ammo)
GFL Giulio Fiocchi of Lecco, Mostly Pistol ammo, but did make some 6,5 post-WW II commercially...not known as a Military headstamp. Also made .303 ammo in 1950s for export and Italian Govt.
* 1936: Special Hirtenberger Patronenfabrik contract as part of WW I reparations (??) actually could be for use by Italian "Volunteers"
in Spanish Civil War (1937-39), or as a reserve for the African Campaigns in Abyssinia (1935-36):* also appears on 8mm Lebel with same year date for Italy: Italian MGs from France in 1917 (Hotchkiss M1914, and St.Etienne M1907).

*SMI* 924. This is a puzzle, as they are standard Ball loads. The * on an Arsenal 6,5 case signifies a Barrel Test Load (overpressure proof), but this is a single star only.
It could be a large test run of nhew material cases, or different brass alloy ( I have NOT seen any SMI cases of other dates with the two stars.);or it could even be a separate case making factory...SMI being a maker of many brass and copper products (Wire, Tube, Plate, Monetary coin blanks) had several plants throughout Italy.

Of all the Pre-1950s Plants, only SMI and Capua still exist in production of 7,62 Nato and 5,56mm), and GFL still makes Military Pistol ammo and recently started making 5,56mm ammo ( also at its USA factory).



P264
Posted - 01/24/2007 : 9:25:27 PM
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DocAV,

Sounds like you have seen this head stamp before, but maybe you will still find this interesting. Here is a photo of the "*SMI*924" and a regular "SMI 924" for comparison.

Marc
http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/P264/2007124211952_composite.jpg
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.
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
More pics of 1923 ammo boxes

trickyrick
Posted - 09/23/2006 : 01:01:05 AM
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http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/trickyrick/200692305727_100_0925.JPG
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got this from a friend today, went lookin for 6.5 clips and he didn't have any...but he had 3 boxes of these. i was gonna use the open box for the clips and keep the sealed box for posterity.

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/trickyrick/200692305536_100_0924.JPG
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http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/trickyrick/20069230564_100_0922.JPG
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Discussion Starter #7
WCC 6,5x52 mm Carcano Ammunition

DocAV
Posted - 10/22/2003 : 5:30:31 PM
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The US had this stuff made up by WCC in the late 1940s for a mixture of Greek and Albanian (irregular) forces fighting against Communists on the Greek-Albanian Border, and for use within Albania itself.At the time, there was a Civil war in Greece, and the Greek Communists were using the (Already Communist) Albania as a Safe haven and resupply point. There were ample Carcano rifles available through-out the Balkan Area from WW II Italian stores and captures by various Greek and Albanian Partizan Bands, especially after the 1943 Italian surrender (whole Italian Units went over to the Locals, with Equipment, for 1943-45).

By the time the ammo was ready, the Greek Civil War was winding down,the Royal Hellenic Army having been massively supported by the British with scads of .303 Ammo and weapons; Albania was still an "area of Interest" to the CIA, (as now known) and some 6,5 ammo was directed there, to friendly anti-communist groups (via air and sea-drop from Italy and Greece; however, the Anti-Coms were soon neutralised, and CIA activity in Albania decreased to "listening Post" only. Any excess WCC 6,5 ammo went to the Milsurp market in the mid to late 1950s.
Aside from its "Kennedy" connection, its claim to fame is that outside of Norma Commercial ammo (and Now "PrviPartizan") it was the ONLY Military Boxer primed version of 6,5 Carcano ammo ever made; and the only 6,5 Carcano ammo ever made in the USA; and besides the WW I USCC 6,5x53R Dutch/Roumanian Contract of 1916-7, the only other 6,5 mm Military ammo ever made in the USA. So it has "Collectability", especially sealed Boxes. In keeping with WCC/WRA practice for Foreign Military contracts of the 1930s-1950s, the cartridge Headstamp has NO date, just manufacturer and calibre.

Regards, Doc AV
 

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Discussion Starter #8
6.5 Carcano in 50 Round Boxes

P264
Posted - 01/19/2007 : 8:31:55 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I purchased several 50 round boxes of 6.5 Carcano thinking I would shoot it, but I am now having second thoughts that it might have collector value.

The head stamps are SMI 935. Does this mean it was made in 1935? The bullets are coated in some type of wax down to just before they enter the cartridge cases. Why coated bullets? The boxes are unmarked except for a hand written description by someone who cannot spell “Italian”. The boxes were at one time sealed with a thin paper strip. A pull string under the paper strip allows the seal to be easily broken. I have not seen Carcano ammunition in 50 round boxes before. Is this machine gun ammunition? Does this ammunition have any collector value?

Thanks for your comments
Marc

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/p264/200711920276_closed.JPG
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http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/p264/2007119202746_opened.JPG
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152.64 KB



DMala
Posted - 01/20/2007 : 12:25:47 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
P264, the WWII or earlier military 6.5x52 ammo had already passed its useful lifespan in the '60s, due to deterioration of the brass and consequent frequent case ruptures. The boxes you found used to be relatively common, and were assembled well post-war with loose ammo of dubious origin. I would recommend not to shoot it, but if interested most likely the bullets and the solenite can be used in modern cases, with very good accuracy. I do have a couple of these boxes just as collection items, even if not strictly a military issue.



DocAV
Posted - 01/22/2007 : 11:19:28 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the 1959-1960s period, Italy was selling off all its 6,5 inventory (rifles and ammunition.) They collected all the deposits of 6,5 Ammo across Italy were collected, and the ammo stripped of its clips (both rifle and 20 round breda LMG clips) and the ammo packed in the 50 round packets. The (Brass) clips were then scrapped as meltable brass.
The 50 round packs will usually be all one headstamp, if filled from Breada chargers, or a selection of headstamps if filled from Rifle clips.
Also one will find other 6,5 ammo varieties( Guard or Riot multiball, Short range frangible, proof cartridges, etc, all of which resemble the normal ball cartridge.) Dates will go from early 1900s to 1962 (last production year which made it to the Big Clean-out).

primers in a lot of years are(were) already gone by the 1970s, so much of this ammo will now be Compeonents (bullet and Powder) only.
The cases are Berdan (.204) Corrosive and probably age splitting (some). The primers were a size only made in italy, and have Not been Commercially available since the mid 1960s (in Italy).



johnnyboy
Posted - 01/23/2007 : 04:31:15 AM
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I have had these boxes of 50 as well, some ammo shoots, some doesn't, due to the primer quality.



P264
Posted - 01/23/2007 : 9:10:13 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks all for your comments.

Since my earlier posting, I have opened all the boxes. Doc AV, you accurately described what I have. Of my 6 boxes, 2 boxes have only a single head stamp each for all 50 rounds. Another 2 boxes have 2 different head stamps per box. The cartridges in these 4 boxes are in pretty good condition as shown in the photos above.

The last 2 boxes contain 34 different head stamps between them. Dates range from 1913 (SMI 13) to 1949 (BPD 949). Three contract manufacturers (SMI, BPD, LBC) as well as 7 government arsenals (AA, BP, CA, LN, PV, TM, ZG) are represented. The condition of the cartridges range from crappy to as good as the other 4 boxes. I cannot tell if there are any non-ball varieties, but one head stamp stands out, “* SMI * 924”, where the * is a 5–pointed star. Since all the other SMI head stamps, including a “SMI 924” have no *, it makes me wonder if there is something unusual in about this one cartridge. These two boxes are sort of a starter kit for someone looking to make a collection of 6.5 mm Carcano cartridges.



DocAV
Posted - 01/23/2007 : 10:43:40 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Italian headstamps include(for Government Arsenals, Bologna and Capua ("B"-date, and "C"-date) the initials reversed of the Chief Inspector in the facility.

I don't have all the names, but here are some:
SL: 1890s-1900s Count Luigi Scotti (Bologna)
AA: 1930s-40s Aldo Adamo
ZG : 1937-40 Gaetano Zangari
LN: Nicola Leggiadre
BP: Pietro Boragine (Bologna, late 1930s).

Official italian Suppliers are
Govt: Bologna (B) Succursale Bologna (SB) (WWI only)
Capua (C); Torino (T)---Not seen on 6,5mm cases, only known on 10,4 Vetterli and 10,4 Glisenti Revolver ammo.

Commercial:
SMI Societa Metallurgica Italiana (Campo Tizzoro, near Florence)
BPD Bombrini, Parodi, Delfino (Genoa and Rome)
LBC Leon Beaux & Co, Milan
M Martignoni ( only on 8mm Mannlicher ammo)
GFL Giulio Fiocchi of Lecco, Mostly Pistol ammo, but did make some 6,5 post-WW II commercially...not known as a Military headstamp. Also made .303 ammo in 1950s for export and Italian Govt.
* 1936: Special Hirtenberger Patronenfabrik contract as part of WW I reparations (??) actually could be for use by Italian "Volunteers"
in Spanish Civil War (1937-39), or as a reserve for the African Campaigns in Abyssinia (1935-36):* also appears on 8mm Lebel with same year date for Italy: Italian MGs from France in 1917 (Hotchkiss M1914, and St.Etienne M1907).

*SMI* 924. This is a puzzle, as they are standard Ball loads. The * on an Arsenal 6,5 case signifies a Barrel Test Load (overpressure proof), but this is a single star only.
It could be a large test run of nhew material cases, or different brass alloy ( I have NOT seen any SMI cases of other dates with the two stars.);or it could even be a separate case making factory...SMI being a maker of many brass and copper products (Wire, Tube, Plate, Monetary coin blanks) had several plants throughout Italy.

Of all the Pre-1950s Plants, only SMI and Capua still exist in production of 7,62 Nato and 5,56mm), and GFL still makes Military Pistol ammo and recently started making 5,56mm ammo ( also at its USA factory).



P264
Posted - 01/24/2007 : 9:25:27 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DocAV,

Sounds like you have seen this head stamp before, but maybe you will still find this interesting. Here is a photo of the "*SMI*924" and a regular "SMI 924" for comparison.

Marc

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/P264/2007124211952_composite.jpg
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