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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I noticed there has been some discussion concerning the rarity of original M1 Carbines that have not been refurbished . I believe I just happen to have such a carbine. This Carbine was produced by Standard Products and is in what I believe 100% original condition including the carrying strap. The name "Standard Products" is stamped on the rear of the action and "STD. PROD" is stamped on the action's locking block on the stock. The carry strap has a black "S" shaped stamp near the front strap loop. I don't know what that stamp means. The Carb. has all the early features that include the flat bolt, two position rear sight, push button safety, no bayonet lug, cross canon cartouche on the stock and a 15 round mag. stamped "A1" on the back spine. The barrel is stamped "Underwood 43 with a flaming bomb". I've had this M1 Carb. since 1965 and haven't fired it in at least 40 years. My shooter M1 Carb. is an Inland Motors Div. with a repro folding stock. My Carb. isn't for sale but I curious to know what its value might be in today's crazy US WWII military arms market. I also have what I believe to be an original carbine carrying case stamped only with "US". Thanks for any comments. Photos are below.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Sandlapper, bodes, astack 18 ------ Thanks you all for your comments and the estimated value of the Carb. The bore and muzzle are very good, the muzzle is mirror bright. I'm not up very much on terminology for carbines so please enlighten me on "a high wood stock" . Sand -- I remember those days when carbines were going for $19.95 from the DCM. Sure wish I'd gotten one back in the mid 60's like you did. However I did pick a very nice Springfield M1 Garand from DCM for as I remember $92.00 in the early 90's.
I was issued a M1 Carbine when I was a guest of Uncle Sam's army back in the mid 50's. I sure liked the little piece back then. I had to turn it in and was issued a M1 Garand after a few months. I missed that little carbine tho.
 

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Sandlapper, bodes, astack 18 ------ Thanks you all for your comments and the estimated value of the Carb. The bore and muzzle are very good, the muzzle is mirror bright. I'm not up very much on terminology for carbines so please enlighten me on "a high wood stock" . Sand -- I remember those days when carbines were going for $19.95 from the DCM. Sure wish I'd gotten one back in the mid 60's like you did. However I did pick a very nice Springfield M1 Garand from DCM for as I remember $92.00 in the early 90's.
I was issued a M1 Carbine when I was a guest of Uncle Sam's army back in the mid 50's. I sure liked the little piece back then. I had to turn it in and was issued a M1 Garand after a few months. I missed that little carbine tho.
Your rifle serial number falls into the second Standard Products manufacture run which ended in January 1944....Early '44 was the time they switched from high to low wood buttstocks....Bodes
USCARBINECAL30M1.com


Here's a picture of a "high wood" stock
 

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Sorry, I should have said the BORE is mirror bright. I hope I'm not failing that bad as I approach 90 !!
Wow! Good for you! Almost 90 and still very active in the community!

My grandfather is the same age as you. Served over in Germany in the US Army with the 3rd Armored Division during the mid 50s

He told me he was trained on the 1911, grease gun and M1 Carbine. Much the reason why I am pursuing one to add to my collection. I’m sure he’d love to handle one again

Thanks for sharing this piece!
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Wow! Good for you! Almost 90 and still very active in the community!

My grandfather is the same age as you. Served over in Germany in the US Army with the 3rd Armored Division during the mid 50s

He told me he was trained on the 1911, grease gun and M1 Carbine. Much the reason why I am pursuing one to add to my collection. I’m sure he’d love to handle one again

Thanks for sharing this piece!
astack18 ------ Thanks for your comments above. Yeah your grandfather and I must be of the same vintage and I'm sure he would like to handle and shoot the M1 Carbine as much as I do. I reload for my shooter piece (not the one in the pics) and it is great fun to make a couple old shot up propane bottles ring on my range. When my old buddies and their wives and kids come out to my range and shoot my shooter carbine, they just can't put it down. You'd better pick up a M1 Carbine while they are still available. Good WWII shooter pieces could be in excess of $2K by this time next year.
I was in the 8th Infantry Div. and the 5th Army Div. back in my Army days and remained here in the US for 2 years. We were told right after the Korean War was over that if hostilities started up again in Korea we would be among the first to be mobilized and sent over to Korea within a couple days. That never happened, at least not yet. I'd still be ready to go over if they sent me a notice. In my civilian career with the Dept. of Defense I spent 8 years in Korea and some of it within a couple miles of the 38th Parallel.
 

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With all the early features, just curious as to why it doesn't have a high wood stock....Otherwise looks like a beautiful rifle....Bodes
According to resources such as Craig Riesch, Scott Duff and Larry Ruth, the Type III stock (low-wood/oval cut) was introduced in mid- late 1943 (I have an original Inland - my US Navy Dad's unused bring-back with papers! - with barrel date 9-44 that has the Type III stock), whereas the barrel date 12-43 and s/n of this gun indicates actual production in approximately January 1944. The visible parts that he has photographed are consistent with that approximate production date, although it would be even better to see configuration and markings on internal parts that are easily accessible with a one-minute field strip.
 

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According to resources such as Craig Riesch, Scott Duff and Larry Ruth, the Type III stock (low-wood/oval cut) was introduced in mid- late 1943 (I have an original Inland - my US Navy Dad's unused bring-back with papers! - with barrel date 9-44 that has the Type III stock), whereas the barrel date 12-43 and s/n of this gun indicates actual production in approximately January 1944. The visible parts that he has photographed are consistent with that approximate production date, although it would be even better to see configuration and markings on internal parts that are easily accessible with a one-minute field strip.
The low-cut stock may have been first introduced in 1943, but per this site states most manufacturers didn't until January 1944....Bodes

RJ Antiques — Quality Militaria
 

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OP Before you ever start switching out parts to make it 'complete' please read Ruths publications closely.
During the war time production, to keep arms coming off production lines, many components were sourced from other manufacturers.
I'd try and help out but sold M1 carbine books and etc 20 or more years ago.
A possible example of this is the Underwood barrel.
Ruth's books, if I remember correctly took each manufacturer's production and broke down by serial number range/date range and noted inclusion of other makers parts.
At some time you could pick up a carbine fresh off production line and mistakenly determine it was a mix master from different makers parts in it.
You have a jewel possibly, research it.
Also, nothing is in concrete with carbine parts dateing and etc.as components may be left in bottom of parts bin upon receipt of newer components. Possibly happening for a long time.
Remember the goal was make a rifle, let collectors try and sort wartime manufacturing process out later.
We sometimes try to overlay our modern limited production knowledge on a process which was purposed with production, winning a war and not making sure 1942 parts went onto a 1942 rifle.
 

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The low-cut stock may have been first introduced in 1943, but per this site states most manufacturers didn't until January 1944....Bodes

RJ Antiques — Quality Militaria
The low-cut stock may have been first introduced in 1943, but per this site states most manufacturers didn't until January 1944....Bodes

RJ Antiques — Quality Militaria
The authors I referenced above have devoted most of their lives to studying the history and production details of the M1 carbine; Ruth's 492-page seminal book "War Baby" published in 1992 (followed by War Baby Comes Home") is still considered the most authoritative, well-documented, in-depth description of the M1 carbine evolution yet published, and is often referenced by other well-respected subsequent authors like Reisch, Duff, Harrison and Larson. For example, if you have ever read Ruth's books, or Craig Reisch's many editions of "U.S. M1 Carbines, Wartime Production", and then re-read the articles by the auction house RJ Antiques, you will immediately see the differences in depth of research and documentation (almost nil) and you will (hopefully) see that virtually every configuration topic (rear sights, barrel bands, stock, etc.,) in the RJA articles is littered with sweeping generalities, inaccuracies and total lack of documentation. Although not intentional DIS-information, the RJA articles (I've read several of them on the M1 carbine) certainly amount to many instances of unintentional MIS-information, primarily intended to provide superficial background information to advance their auction sales, not to educate aficionado collectors. Yes, I'm a long-time member of the Carbine Club, have been collecting the carbines for 30 years, and have a stack of books on that narrow subject. And along the way. I have bought and sold over 110 carbines - still have 96 of them, representing every manufacturer, with examples all throughout the early, mid- and late-war configurations for each manufacturer.
 

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ray ----- If you would like I could field strip my carbine and take pics of some internal parts. Are there any particular parts you might care to see ?? Let me know.
I appreciate your new-found interest in this M1 carbine, which as I said before, looks completely consistent with original, as-issued configuration. That could be even further confirmed by looking at markings on other internal components; Standard Products (a Division of General Motors) usually marked all their parts with an "S" where possible. All carbine manufacturers had their own specific code, used primarily for quality control purposes; so, if a particular part were found to be consistently failing, the Ordnance Dept could go back to the manufacturer and perhaps discover defects in metallurgy, machining, heat-treating, etc. The trigger housing (your photo looks like the late stamped/brazed Type 4 = consistent with late production) and should have letters like "ST" or "BE-B" (which is actually an IBM part supplied through lateral support). The hammer should have a letter "S" in it, like "SW", "SS", "SHTE" (letters stacked upon each other) on the left side; the bolt lug (usually the right side) should have an "S" and probably a number following; and the sear will also have the letter "S" in the marking (if visible). The magazine catch should have the marking "SW" on the side facing forward against the magazine. The slide should have the big, loopy "S" on the inside, usually followed by a number. The left side of the rear flip sight should have a small letter "s", indicating "small" side going into the tapered dovetail on the receiver. And the front sight should have the letter "N' behind the blade (Niedner Rifle Company - made sights for many of the carbine manufacturers) in it, either alone or "SN".
Standard Products did not make their own barrels, so your Underwood barrel dated 12-43 is consistent with your late receiver serial number 2132143 indicating late January-early February production timeframe according to Ruth and Duff's book "The M1 Carbine Owner's Guide". The size and placement of the Ordnance Dept acceptance stamp ("Crossed Cannons") on the right side of the buttstock is correct for Standard Products, and an even better confirmation will be found in the slingwell cutout on the left side, which should have "S-HB" (the HB indicated that the stock was made by Hillerich and Bradsby, the maker of the famous Louisville Slugger baseball bats). More rarely, you might find the letters "SJ" - the "J" indicating manufacture by Jamestown Lounge Company in New York. The flat part of the underside of the handguard should also show "S-HB" or "SJ". The magazine marked "AI" is by "Autoyre" for Inland. The big, loopy "S" marking on the sling is not documented anywhere I can find, but could conceivably be in line with the "S" markings for almost every carbine part made by Standard Products - you could tell people that, and nobody could dispute you!
All these markings merely indicate what was most likely on the gun when it was originally issued, and any deviations from that are nothing to apologize for - your carbine looks like a truly excellent example from Standard Products, a relatively rare producer which made less than 3% of all M1 carbines. As for value, you can watch Gunbroker auctions and compare yours to whatever is offered. Hint: although I already have three Standard Products carbines, I would offer you $2,000 for it right now! (But really - don't sell it; keep it as a 40-year family heirloom!)
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Ray ------ Thank you very much for your description of stamps and marks I should look for on the outside surface of the external pieces, without field stripping the carbine. Here is what I've found on the external surface of various parts :
1. The left side of the mag. catch has the letters "SW".
2. The left side of the flip sight has the small letter "s". (The letter has what appears to be square corners.)
3. The front sight has the letter "N" just behind the blade.
4. The crossed canons stamp does appear on the right side of the stock and the large letters "S-HB" do appear on the sling cut out in the rear of the stock. The letters "S-HB" also appear on the left side flat of the wood hand guard.

To check out the stamps on the inside parts I'll have to field strip the carbine. After I do that I'll post again to let you know what I find. I do appreciate the time and trouble you have taken to list all the marks to look for in & on my Std. Prod. carbine. And yes I appreciate your generous offer you show above for the carbine. But as you mentioned it will stay in the family for at least as long as I remain on this earth. Thanks again.
 
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