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You're correct, unforeseen things invariably happen....However when live ammunition is introduced in a place where it's really not warranted, the consequences of these happen stances can be magnified....Bodes
Indeed. That is the base question. How did live ammo make its way onto a movie set? Prop guns are pointed all the time at actors and fired with blanks. However, with modern CGI, why is that necessary? It can easily be simulated realistically.
 

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We still had the occasional "stray discharge report" as training.
Every organization I have been in that handles live ammunition and conduct live fire exercises has had ZERO tolerance for a Negligent Discharge. If your weapon EVER goes off and you did not INTEND for it to go off, you are out of a job. If you injure or kill someone you should expect to be charged with Involuntary Manslaughter.
Movie prop defense is bull. Firearm safety rules always apply when you handle a firearm.
 
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As may be. However - IF you were always taught "there are no toy guns" as far as the way you treat them, you are unlikely to grow up and shoot somebody you didn't intend to shoot. You are NOT supposed to fear guns, but you are supposed to respect them. Maybe I think that way because i was taught to think that way, but I think it is a pretty good idea. So - I haven't ever shot anybody I didn't intend to, not so far anyhow. And have shot some i did intend to, which is a record I am satisfied with.
I was taught not to point a gun at someone unless I was going to shoot the person.
 

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The New Mexico Medical Investigator has ruled the shooting an accident, but it still hasn't been revealed as to how the live ammunition made its way onto the set....Blanks are easily discernible in comparison to live rounds, so it's odd the armorer didn't notice....She was paid and responsible for the weapon, but it further muddies things up that Baldwin didn't do an inspection prior to the incident....It appears nobody could be charged but perhaps the family can still file a civil lawsuit in the wrongful death of the cinematographer....Bodes
 

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The New Mexico Medical Investigator has ruled the shooting an accident, but it still hasn't been revealed as to how the live ammunition made its way onto the set....Blanks are easily discernible in comparison to live rounds, so it's odd the armorer didn't notice....She was paid and responsible for the weapon, but it further muddies things up that Baldwin didn't do an inspection prior to the incident....It appears nobody could be charged but perhaps the family can still file a civil lawsuit in the wrongful death of the cinematographer....Bodes
1. Medical Investigator's views are NOT dispositive. Just because he/she sys "Accident" doesn't mean the DA cannot take the case to a Grand Jury and obtain an indictment (IF he/she hasn't been bought off in one fashion or another);

2. No "perhaps" about it. The survivors can file a wrongful death suit, no question. Just have to decide who to name as defendants.
 

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Every organization I have been in that handles live ammunition and conduct live fire exercises has had ZERO tolerance for a Negligent Discharge. If your weapon EVER goes off and you did not INTEND for it to go off, you are out of a job. If you injure or kill someone you should expect to be charged with Involuntary Manslaughter.
Movie prop defense is bull. Firearm safety rules always apply when you handle a firearm.
That's the issue in a nutshell- it's a movie set, the gun is a prop. There should be no live fire, no live ammo.
I was taught not to point a gun at someone unless I was going to shoot the person.
Completely understood, but you would make a poor actor.

Please note, I am not defending Baldwin as a person, or his politics. And this was definitely not a high budget film, I'm sure tons of corners got cut. But we're talking about actors holding props, so that the films we watch look believable. Some of those guys (and girls) don't know the slightest thing about firearms or gun safety. They know the rules of being an actor... like when they are handed a prop and given explicit instructions to not do anything outside the script, they follow that.
About props as guns- my understanding is that some will have realistic dummy rounds, so they can be shown too. A casual layman may not notice the difference. It's clearly a potentially very dangerous situation, so you have to have everyone taking it all very seriously, and everyone needs to be properly checked. The armorer should be completely trustworthy, and needs to be on top of everything. And nobody should challenge or argue with them, as they are the authority for that device.

My understanding is they 'borrowed" guns from someone's collection to use, which shouldn't be the case. If I'm the armorer or props guy, I want deactivated at best, with maybe a couple for blanks. Like someone else posted, at this point in time, there's free or cheap software that can edit in a muzzle flash. That's not hiring ILM, there are literally youtube posters that can do that at home now.

I will say this- if Baldwin breached protocol by going and taking the gun from the locker himself, instead of it being checked and handed to him by the armorer (and I have heard this, he WAS the producer and he might have called executive privilege in doing so), he bears full responsibility and should be charged. These 'props' should have very strict chain of custody, and if you break it, it's on you.
 

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That's the issue in a nutshell- it's a movie set, the gun is a prop. There should be no live fire, no live ammo.
The issue is that is completely false logic. The tool does not change just because we find a new use for it.

A firearm used as a prop is still a firearm. Firearm safety rules apply. Individual responsibility still applies and Ignorance is no excuse.

Alec Baldwin committed Involuntary Manslaughter when he pointed and pulled the trigger on a firearm he did not personally check the status of at another human being.

Negligent Discharge is Negligence.
 

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As may be. However - IF you were always taught "there are no toy guns" as far as the way you treat them, you are unlikely to grow up and shoot somebody you didn't intend to shoot. You are NOT supposed to fear guns, but you are supposed to respect them. Maybe I think that way because i was taught to think that way, but I think it is a pretty good idea. So - I haven't ever shot anybody I didn't intend to, not so far anyhow. And have shot some i did intend to, which is a record I am satisfied with.
Again you miss the point, on set it is nothing but a prop. NOTHING ELSE A PROP. It makes no difference what that prop is, there are other people to take care of it. The actors job is to just act....that is it. And despite what we may want to think it can be very hard and taxing work.

Let me try this. If the actor gets in a car, does he check the oil....ever, look at the tires....ever, check for gas.....ever. No there are other people for that.

I really wish I could post up the video I wanted to, there is an F-bomb at the end so I can't. But watch this, you will see at the end just how spent the actor is. Yes it is an actor playing an actor playing a bad guy, but you work yourself up to such a state it can really screw with your mind and body. Do you think playing the joker had anything to do with heath ledger's death, it put his mind in a very bad place that it just could not get out of. Not the only reason he hit the off button, but one reason, you don't push the off button because of one thing...trust me I know. It is many things that all add up in a persons mind that finally pushes them over the edge.....they can become the person they are playing, that is what makes us all say, wow, he really sold that joker as being a total crazy.....that is because he was crazy, and could not un crazy, saw no way out and hit the off button.

I personally have no use for hollywood, but I do try to really understand it. I have a kid working for me (18) and he asked me what was the last movie I went to go see....like out to see, yea out to see....300 (I had to google it again) that was in 2006, I have not been in a movie house after 2006....wow. I saw once upon a time in hollywood on tape, and between I can't think of any.....I just don't do that form of media.

But I do want to understand it, and understand how it works, one of the things with a not so normal brain like I have ADHD is you tend to hyper focus on things, and until your brain says enough nothing else matters. Some time ago it was how movies really get made.

Eh I babbled again enough, perhaps I should do an ADHD thread sometime.
 

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That's the issue in a nutshell- it's a movie set, the gun is a prop. There should be no live fire, no live ammo.
Completely understood, but you would make a poor actor.

Please note, I am not defending Baldwin as a person, or his politics. And this was definitely not a high budget film, I'm sure tons of corners got cut. But we're talking about actors holding props, so that the films we watch look believable. Some of those guys (and girls) don't know the slightest thing about firearms or gun safety. They know the rules of being an actor... like when they are handed a prop and given explicit instructions to not do anything outside the script, they follow that.
About props as guns- my understanding is that some will have realistic dummy rounds, so they can be shown too. A casual layman may not notice the difference. It's clearly a potentially very dangerous situation, so you have to have everyone taking it all very seriously, and everyone needs to be properly checked. The armorer should be completely trustworthy, and needs to be on top of everything. And nobody should challenge or argue with them, as they are the authority for that device.

My understanding is they 'borrowed" guns from someone's collection to use, which shouldn't be the case. If I'm the armorer or props guy, I want deactivated at best, with maybe a couple for blanks. Like someone else posted, at this point in time, there's free or cheap software that can edit in a muzzle flash. That's not hiring ILM, there are literally youtube posters that can do that at home now.

I will say this- if Baldwin breached protocol by going and taking the gun from the locker himself, instead of it being checked and handed to him by the armorer (and I have heard this, he WAS the producer and he might have called executive privilege in doing so), he bears full responsibility and should be charged. These 'props' should have very strict chain of custody, and if you break it, it's on you.
There is a fantastic scene in The Truman show, they are looking for truman and on a boat they can't drive the boat, they are actors.

That sums it up. You could not be more correct.

There is really one big place in hollywood where all the movies go to get the gunz, be they real or fake, like han solos blaster, a "fake gun", or in the sci fi movies. It is calles ISS props, NOT ISS guns, they are props, some are real guns, some are fake rubber or plastic guns to look so close incase an actor is a felon and can't hold a gun they are covered, like Tim Allen and Mark Wahlberg (allen drugs, wahlberg assault) These people can't have "real guns". But wait you say, Markey mark has been in a bunch of "gun" movies, yup.....and all are fake, the magic of hollywood.

With this being a "low budget" I can see a private collection being one of the costs that got cut. Hay Alec so and so is a gun nut, I bet he would let us borrow his stuff for the movie then we don't have to rent them from a prop house, money saved.
 

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The issue is that is completely false logic. The tool does not change just because we find a new use for it.

A firearm used as a prop is still a firearm. Firearm safety rules apply. Individual responsibility still applies and Ignorance is no excuse.

Alec Baldwin committed Involuntary Manslaughter when he pointed and pulled the trigger on a firearm he did not personally check the status of at another human being.

Negligent Discharge is Negligence.
Sorry but it is not. And you are also correct about the involuntary manslaughter, however there are so many little cracks in that. When was the last time you saw a drunk leave a bar run over someone and NOT get that charge tossed at them. It is the same thing, Individual responsibility and ignorance still at play. You could toss drugs in place of booze if you like as well.

They are props. In the movies there are many scenes when the camera is looking right down the gun and it is fired.

I am not directing this next part at YOU, but at the general YOU that wants this guys hide on the side of the barn.

I think a great deal of this is caused by baldwins politics, this is human. And you see it quite often, Oh that football star has so much pain he is on drugs, he is not thinking right so driving his corvette at 120 into the back of an old lady is not really his fault. You might hate stick and ball "sports", they are really games but that is for a different thread, but I am sure when looking hard enough you could find someone somewhere that has screwed up.....what is that old saying about tossing a stone or something.

You can't come down even harder or be blind to the realities of that world (movie making) just because you don't like a persons politics, this is likely to get many people upset, you must look at the specific scene where this event happened, and just what failed and where. Baldwin made things worse for himself with his actions after the fact, this is not helping anything.

Would it be different if he said, hay I am just an actor playing a part, you all know I hate guns and want nothing to do with them, but the business I am in the product people want has a gun in it as being central to telling the story. I had no idea on how they work, or how to make sure they are safe, this is the job of the expert we hired, I am just the actor, I may play a part of a pilot but I don't know how to fly a plane. Same here, Other people do the real flying and I sit behind a fake safe plane and get on screen doing my acting. I did pull the trigger, and I did kill her, but I had no idea the gun was real, or how to make sure it was safe.

I am sure he is afraid of jail if that is what he said, and I am sure lawyers told him to deny deny deny and keep your mouth shut, every time he opens it things get worse.
 

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I wanted this next part outside of the quoted part as sometimes people think I direct this at them, when infact I am just lazy and don't want to start a new post.

This could be one of those things where....well this is just an accident. What do we need to do to make sure this accident does not happen again.

Could it be a step between what Reeves for the wick movies, and where baldwin is. Could it be (In the baldwin case) basic instruction on the workings of a single action, this is how you open the door to check, see this is a live round, and this is a "dummy" that we are going to use in the film, see how this one looks just like the live one, but this one does not have a primer, you will not see that on camera in the movie, but the gun will look loaded on film. The new movie actor law #775845759020bh8731 says you must check the status of all on set fire arms personally and if you have questions of their safety you are to bring them to the master armorer.

This is really what needs to happen, specific "training" is nothing new to actors when they get parts, this can come from diet changes to any kind of special training, many learn to fly after doing an airplane movie. I have a feeling that Reeves found out this gun thing is really fun and wants to do this. I know the same is for tom selleck, oddly enough you don't really hear much about their politics.

I remember the movie American Graffiti susan summers got the part because she could drive a stick.
 

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They are props. In the movies there are many scenes when the camera is looking right down the gun and it is fired.
Your whole argument is that is there is some weird, special, exception because the firearm is used as a movie prop.

There is not.

Additional layers of safety do not relieve an Individual from acting responsibly.
 
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1. Medical Investigator's views are NOT dispositive. Just because he/she sys "Accident" doesn't mean the DA cannot take the case to a Grand Jury and obtain an indictment (IF he/she hasn't been bought off in one fashion or another);

2. No "perhaps" about it. The survivors can file a wrongful death suit, no question. Just have to decide who to name as defendants.
The term accident may have a different connotation to me than what's used in the legal sense...."Accidents" can be the results of one or a series of unforeseen events which unfold unnoticed or for no apparent reason whatsoever....IF a person has a vehicular mishap while distracted by something inside the car, then the label of accident is placed on it....Something similar may have happened on the set of Rust....The armorer may have had the weapon secured the day prior, but somebody with access to it decides they want to put some live rounds through it....You're out in the desert with a group of like-minded individuals who are tiring of the long days of work...They take some booze and a little grass and go blow off some steam....They get a little nervous they may get caught, so they quickly put the piece back without fully deactivating it....The armorer apparently had multiple jobs on the set according to her attorneys, so she is preoccupied with other tasks....She figures the gun is fine, since it was okay the last time she inspected it....The person(s) who had it the night before decide not to say something for fear they may lose their job(s), and besides it's the responsibility of the armorer....She'll see to it that the weapon is ready to go....The gun shows up on the set unchecked and an accident occurs....The person(s) involved have been told by consul to stay silent and not say anything unless the investigation turns in their direction....I think there are people who know something, but won't come forward for fear of prosecution or being black balled by the film industry....The DA won't likely indict unless they feel they can put forth a winnable case....Bodes
 

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if it's a real gun it's everybody who handles it responsibility to make sure it can't fire. if i'm at the range and someone hands me a gun they just cleared i still check it to make sure it's cleared. if you don't know that you have no business handling a gun at all.
 

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The term accident may have a different connotation to me than what's used in the legal sense...."Accidents" can be the results of one or a series of unforeseen events which unfold unnoticed or for no apparent reason whatsoever....IF a person has a vehicular mishap while distracted by something inside the car, then the label of accident is placed on it....Something similar may have happened on the set of Rust....The armorer may have had the weapon secured the day prior, but somebody with access to it decides they want to put some live rounds through it....You're out in the desert with a group of like-minded individuals who are tiring of the long days of work...They take some booze and a little grass and go blow off some steam....They get a little nervous they may get caught, so they quickly put the piece back without fully deactivating it....The armorer apparently had multiple jobs on the set according to her attorneys, so she is preoccupied with other tasks....She figures the gun is fine, since it was okay the last time she inspected it....The person(s) who had it the night before decide not to say something for fear they may lose their job(s), and besides it's the responsibility of the armorer....She'll see to it that the weapon is ready to go....The gun shows up on the set unchecked and an accident occurs....The person(s) involved have been told by consul to stay silent and not say anything unless the investigation turns in their direction....I think there are people who know something, but won't come forward for fear of prosecution or being black balled by the film industry....The DA won't likely indict unless they feel they can put forth a winnable case....Bodes
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I don't think you are going to understand the reality of that world, dead horse is now pulp.
Playing pretend is not reality.

Firearm safety rules are written in blood to prevent the dose of reality Alec's negligence has inflicted upon his co-worker.
 
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