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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
There is a very good chance the issue is with me rather than my ammunition or firearm, but I've been having issues with my 94/14. I've got a 6' spread or so... at 25 yards. On my m96 I can bring that down to 2-3 inches at 25 yards, and 1-2 inches at 100 yards with my m41/b. I can't help but wonder if there might be something amiss with my sights.

I wasn't able to find any info on how to change the sights in the Crown Jewels, just information about the various types of sights. I read a pdf manual for Swedish mausers which specifically said that only an armorer should ever touch the sights. My questions are: 1. How should I best go about determining if there is something amiss with my shooting technique or if it's the sights? 2. Is it possible that both my technique and the carbine's sights are fine, it's just my scrawny arms not being able to control the recoil? 3. If it is the sights should I find a gunsmith to make the changes or could I make the adjustments myself?

I more or less only shoot prvi partizan in the 94/14 although I've been trying out Sellier & Bellot recently.
 

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First of all, I am assuming you mean 6 inches spread instead of 6 feet at 25 yards.

Second, you have to realize that the sights on Military rifles are for shooting at man sized targets, that is, approximately 5 1/2 feet high and 18 inches wide. Therefore, they are zeroed at about 300 Meters WITH MILITARY AMMUNITION.

The Carbine, because of it's shorter barrel, has quite a muzzle blast, and because of it's lighter weight, it has more recoil. Are you wearing ear muffs?

Also, because of the shorter barrel, the sighting distance between the front and rear sight is shorter, thus errors in sighting alignment are larger.

Are you unconsciously flinching? Have a friend load your Carbine one round at a time, put the safety on, hand you the rifle, and you then fire that one round. At some time, have the friend NOT load a cartridge into the chamber, but close the bolt as if he had, then you fire it on the empty chamber. You will find out if you are flinching or not.

Military sights are coarse, compared to hunting rifle sights and especially target sights. You can not really get a fine aim with them like you do on a hunting or target rifle. This also affects a person's shooting.

25 yards is not really the place to test for accuracy. Shoot at 100 yards, as it sometimes takes a bit of distance for a bullet to stabilize.

I might also suggest that you have an experienced shooter help you with your shooting techniques. You should be able to do much better than 2-3 inches at 25 yards with a m/96 rifle.

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There is a very good chance the issue is with me rather than my ammunition or firearm, but I've been having issues with my 94/14. I've got a 6' spread or so... at 25 yards. On my m96 I can bring that down to 2-3 inches at 25 yards, and 1-2 inches at 100 yards with my m41/b. I can't help but wonder if there might be something amiss with my sights.

I wasn't able to find any info on how to change the sights in the Crown Jewels, just information about the various types of sights. I read a pdf manual for Swedish mausers which specifically said that only an armorer should ever touch the sights. My questions are: 1. How should I best go about determining if there is something amiss with my shooting technique or if it's the sights? 2. Is it possible that both my technique and the carbine's sights are fine, it's just my scrawny arms not being able to control the recoil? 3. If it is the sights should I find a gunsmith to make the changes or could I make the adjustments myself?

I more or less only shoot prvi partizan in the 94/14 although I've been trying out Sellier & Bellot recently.
6" at 25?
meaning what, over two feet at 100?
thats pretty bad, how is the crown on that thing?
on your m96 you should be high but touching at 25yrds.

get some different targets that you are comfortable with and try that. I would not mess with the sights at all, as it was mentioned, these are set at 300m. I shoot standing m38 and m96 at 300m with 4" spread about, much better if I sand bag it - again at 300m. I am wondering if there is some issues with your aiming... I mean you have 3 nice rifles there, I just can't imagine these are all bad crowns and bad bores.
If you want to sell 94 to me and see how I can do, I would be game :) - still looking for one here.
 

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Lingonberry,

There's a lot involved with shooting iron sights accurately, and there's a lot written on it out there, but I'll give you my 2 cents on the topic.

First of all, assuming the sights on your rifle are not loose or obviously damaged, there's nothing wrong with the sights on your carbine as they were designed. Don't think that a gunsmith can improve upon the design. Part of the enjoyment of shooting these old rifles is learning how to shoot them the way they were intended over 100 years ago.

You should start by using the proper target. A black circle on a white background, 3" to 4" diameter for shooting at 50 yards, and 6" to 8" diameter for shooting at 100 yards.

Next, make sure you have a comfortable, stable bench rest.

I would recommend starting at 50 yards with your carbine. Your goal should be a 1" to 2" group at that range with that gun. For an m/96 with the longer sight radius, I use the same goal at 100 yards.

Shoot 5 shot groups. Make sure your action screws are tight.

Next, you should strive for consistency in your technique from shot to shot - most importantly, sight alignment, sight picture, and trigger control.

Sight alignment - Center the front sight blade in the rear sight notch. Align the top of the blade with the top of the rear sight. Now keep it all aligned as you do the following.

Sight picture - Your primary focus should be on the front sight. You can move your focus from the target to the rear sight to confirm alignment, but when you get ready to shoot, the front sight should be in focus. It's OK if the target is a little fuzzy, the challenge is having the same sight picture for each shot. Probably the best, or most common, sight picture is a "6 o'clock hold". This is where the bullseye is sitting on top of the front sight blade. With the sights aligned, start from below the bullseye and move the rifle up, closing the gap between the top of the front sight and the bottom edge of the bullseye. Center the front sight on the bullseye and make sure you're sights are still aligned properly. This is where they say "aim small, miss small". The more precise you are aligning the sights with the bullseye, the better your group will be - just make sure you do it the same for every shot.

Trigger control - At some point in the aiming process, you should take up the first stage of the trigger. I usually do it after sight alignment and hold it there while I work on the sight picture. Once you have the sight picture you want, start squeezing the trigger to break the second stage. The main thing is to not move the rifle when you pull the trigger. If you don't think about it, it's easy to get sloppy and start jerking the trigger, or pull at an angle instead of straight back. Plan on holding your position for 1-2 seconds after the shot to make sure you have good follow through.

If you do all of this consistently from shot to shot, you should see improved results. If you're still not getting the accuracy you expected, then I would start looking at your ammunition and experiment with different loads to see if there's one your rifle likes better.

Hope that helps. Enjoy your carbine!
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Oops, sorry. Meant to say 6 inches, not six feet. They would kick me off the range if it was THAT bad.

My range only goes up to 100 yards. The longest distance shooters are allowed to shoot without a scope is 50 yards. The range is located on a floodplain but the area is rapidly being developed so I suspect they're under a lot of pressure from their insurance company/city hall to make sure everything is super safe lest they find themselves booted out of the area in favor of a parking lot for an office park.

As for the sights, I wasn't intending to remove/change the sights, just have them checked out to make sure they're not loose or misaligned. And no, I'm not selling the carbine. I'm pretty sure after reading NW Swede's post that the issue is me, not the firearm(s). I rarely have the chance to go to the range to practice. I'm also the first man in my family to buy a firearm so I never really had anyone sit me down and teach me how to shoot. Reading about how to do something on the internet is one thing, actually doing it is another thing entirely.

Thanks for the help guys.
 

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Lingonberry,

We all started where you did. I bet there is someone at the range that would be willing to help you with the aspects of learning accurate rifle shooting. Don't be shy in saying you are a newcomer, should get plenty of assistance. I noticed I'd developed a flinch with 30-06 and 300 Weatherby. I accidentally left the safety on and fired...surprised to see my jerk at squeezing the trigger. I also started as shotgun shooter, where timing is everything...hard to learn to squeeze steady until you are surprised by the shot. Me, I slap that trigger!

My son recently said a friend of his, who had gone shooting with us a few times, credits me with teaching him the principles of rifle marksmanship. Made me happy. His friend was hitting 200 yards with an AK, now that is marksmanship (the gun is barely capable)!

Ask for advice from the range rats... you can tell who will help. Also, nothing beats a .22 rifle for learning the elements. Bolt action is best. Breath, focus aim, breathe again, let 1/2 breathe out... squeeze trigger while focusing on that target. You want to be surprised that the gun went off.

I am presently engaged in teaching my step-son (16 years) the fine points of rifle shooting. Hard to overcome that Xbox training! We have until November and Dec. to get it down, when he and I go out for Mule Deer and Elk. First shot at live game...all that training overcome by adrenalin!

Me, with aging eyes, I get about 3 inch groups with my "new" m94 at 100 yards. The sight is set for 300 m. so aim about 10 in. low at 100. Best (and cheaper) to get the basics with .22.
 

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PAJARO is exactly right. A centerfire rifle is not the type you need to learn to shoot with, especially as a new shooter. I have shot targets for over 60 years, and I really have no idea of the amount of .22 rimfire ammo that I have send downrange, but it would probably be measured by the Hundredweight.

My advice to you is to pay attention to what PAJARO has told you. To sum up, since you have only a 100 yard range available at present, buy yourself a good .22 rimfire bolt action rifle, a couple of cartons of ammunition, and PRACTICE. Start at the .25 yard line, off the Bench. Practice breathing and trigger control.

WEAR EAR MUFFS AND SAFETY GLASSES. This is very important, as your eyes are vital and can not easily be replaced. Safety glasses need not be those big industrial type wrap around goggles, but are available in the "sunglasses" style. Ear muffs not only protect your hearing, but also will really improve your shooting as you will not have that big blast of a noise when you shoot the rifle.

Make acquaintances with an older member of your Range or Gun Club, someone who really knows how to shoot. If you are willing and interested, most of these people will be happy to help you out, and you will make new friends. They will also steer you toward some good used rifles and equipment that you might be able to use, and this stuff tends to be a bit lower in price if it is sold to interested shooters rather than to the General public.

LISTEN to these people! I always like teaching Women how to shoot, and they are very good at it, because they LISTEN to you, and then they DO WHAT YOU TELL THEM. But try to teach a younger teen-ager or adult, and you might as well talk to a Cow. These people KNOW all about shooting, and they are a cross between Wyatt Earp and Wild Bill Hickock, and NOBODY is going to tell them what to do and how to shoot, because they have this ingrained knowledge through evolution. But it is always fun at a Club Novice Shoot, because, when the shooting is all over, about 7 or 8 out of the top 10 shooters are the Women.

So buy yourself a good BOLT ACTION .22 rimfire rifle, and then PRACTICE with it. Find your self a Mentor, that is, a person who is already a good target shot, and is willing to teach you the basics and the advanced shooting techniques. Mine was an old retired Regimental Sergeant-Major, the Caretaker at the local Armouries, who just happened to have been an Instructor at the School of Musketry in Hythe, England. SMELLIE's was William (Bisley) Brown, six times member of Canada's Bisley Team and three times Captain of the Team.

As mentioned, we have all been there, and started out having to learn a lot by ourselves. The Internet is a great source of information today, and something that was not even dreamed of when we were young. But, also be aware that the Internet is a great source of DISINFORMATION too, so learn to sift out the good stuff.
Good Shooting.
.
 

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NW Swede, Pajaro and Buffdog have covered the issues very comprehensively. I will just "dot the i" by observing Prvi Partizan commercial 6.5X55 yields at best 3 to 4 MOA, i.e at 100 yards groups are 3" to 4" fired from my M96 - 29" barrel - and M38's - 24" barrel. My recently acquired CG63 gets about 2 MOA with this ammunition, probably because its chamber is a bit tighter. For the military rifle fitted with barrel-mounted tangent sight, some skill is required that will not be learned shooting with a rifle scope or receiver-mounted peep sights. I can recommend the CZ452 Trainer, which is fitted with an excellent sighting system that provides the same sight picture as with the Swedish Mauser, Finn M39, and Swiss K31.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I have a .22lr but like I said, I rarely get a chance to go to the range. My first gun was a mosin nagant M44 so there is a wee bit of a flinch but it comes and goes. Oddly when I shoot a 7mm rem mag I rarely flinch. Other guns, not so much...

They will not allow us to use rimfire on anything other than the 25 yard range. I have no idea why but it's pretty frustrating. I'll just be sure to bring my .22 with me each time I go to the range, remember to take my time, and remember the advice from this thread.

I like to use Prvi Partizan because I can find it pretty easily online and it's fairly cheap for what it is. I've used Norma rounds in the m41/b and they were quite nice, but at those prices...
 

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I have a .22lr but like I said, I rarely get a chance to go to the range. My first gun was a mosin nagant M44 so there is a wee bit of a flinch but it comes and goes. Oddly when I shoot a 7mm rem mag I rarely flinch. Other guns, not so much... They will not allow us to use rimfire on anything other than the 25 yard range. I have no idea why but it's pretty frustrating. I'll just be sure to bring my .22 with me each time I go to the range, remember to take my time, and remember the advice from this thread. I like to use Prvi Partizan because I can find it pretty easily online and it's fairly cheap for what it is. I've used Norma rounds in the m41/b and they were quite nice, but at those prices...
Prvi Partizan ammunition is of very high quality; I can get MOA with Prvi ammo with the M39 and K31. The problem is Prvi ammo is made to SAAMI specs, and the M94/M96/M38 chamber is deeper throated than SAAMI spec. The brass is good for reloading, and that is where I'm going with this post. If you reload, you can develop a light load that yields accuracy and lower recoil. For example, my M41 "clone" load uses Rel 22 45 gr, but a reduced charge of 43.5 gr gives groups just as tight at 200 yards, and with no windage deviation. For the short barrel M94, Rel 19 may work better than Rel 22; at this point we need some M94 reloaders to chime in.
 

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I strongly advise you to look around for a better range. If you have to drive a little more, its still going to be worth it. No rimfire at 100 is just dumb -- the box says it is deadly out to a mile, so what is the problem? No iron at 100 is just dumb. I understand the reasons, but, you are too restricted at this place to do what you need to do. I have to drive 45 min to the range I use, because the public on here is a mess and the other private one has a waiting list. Hopefully you can find somewhere else to go.


The other comment I will offer is about the sights. It does not matter how far off the sights are, so long as they are not moving when you fire the gun. They could be 5 feet up and 10 feet left, and that is fine. Once you determine where the rounds are going, you can see your group. If you aim at the same point, and look at your group, that is the answer about the rifle. A 3 inch group of 10 shots way, way off from your target is a good shooting rifle and good shooting by you. You can then adjust the sights or get some help with that. If the group is large, that is the first thing to address: it could be the gun, it could be the ammo, and it could be YOU. So, you eliminate the variables as best you can. Buy ammo that people here recommend as being at least "decent". That takes care of that. Then, if you can, lock the gun in one of those lead sled or similar devices so it cannot move, then test a few shots. If they make a nice group (should be 2 inches, maybe less, at 100 yards), the gun is fine. If it shoots a terrible group, try a second brand of ammo. If it does a bad group again, the gun needs work, or maybe is beyond hope, it just depends on the cause. Usually, it can be fixed if you can see the rifling in the barrel and it is in reasonable condition. If the gun is fine when locked in place, that means its YOU, time to work on whatever the issue is, from inconsistent use of the sights to flinches or whatever else. But before you try to learn to shoot better, you MUST have a gun that you trust to hit where it is aimed, so the first steps are always to eliminate the human from the variables and work it from there.
 

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In that case, does anyone know of a good range in the DFW area?
Google gave me like 3 pages of hits -- naturally a few were indoor pistol places but since I am nowhere near the area all I can do is google them for you, and that is pointless... take a look, give a couple a try, there has to be something better than what you are using currently. The downside... waiting lists, costs, etc.... that is all beyond me but the good places usually cost a bit. I think I spend $300 a year to get access to ranges for myself and wife.
 

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I'd call TX Parks and Wildlife Dept. ask them. This website: http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/learning/hunter_education/shooting_opportunities.phtml
shows "coming soon" for what may be a list of shooting ranges.
There are funds for Wildlife Departments to construct shooting ranges, not sure if federal or state. AZ Game and Fish has a huge public facility in Phoenix, for example. TX should get with it.

Or, drive out west of FW, lots of farm country out there, I bet you could find a landowner who would let you use a bit of land for small fee, get some friends together (like everyone else at the club you currently use).

Or, move to the hill country of TX...lots of Shutzen verein there, a great hold-over from the early immigrants!
 

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In that case, does anyone know of a good range in the DFW area?
Hello, Lingonberry. Love your handle, because I've had Swedish ostkaka with lingonberry sauce. :) My mom's relatives are Swedes who settled in central Kansas.

As far as a range, I've had good experience with the Garland public range on Pleasant Valley. I've shot my .22 bolt action at 50 and 100 yds there, no problems at all. Currently, they are dealing with some issues that limit rifles to smaller than .30 caliber, but this should not affect you at all. I would welcome a private message if I can be of any assistance to you. Good shooting....
 

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I gotta say, if you are doing 1"-2" at 100 yards with one of your rifles, and 6" at 25 yards with another, that is an anomaly- I would have the rifle looked at. Try firing five rounds from each rifle at 50 yards, on a fresh identical target for each group. if you are experiencing the same wild diference, you have a rifle problem.
 

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I gotta say, if you are doing 1"-2" at 100 yards with one of your rifles, and 6" at 25 yards with another, that is an anomaly- I would have the rifle looked at. Try firing five rounds from each rifle at 50 yards, on a fresh identical target for each group. if you are experiencing the same wild diference, you have a rifle problem.
This is excellent advice and an excellent way to sort out the problem.

Dutch
 
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