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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Dutchman
Posted - 10/17/2005 : 1:50:46 PM
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The following are quotes from the owner:::

"There was no extraction problem for the bullet is still in the barrel. It did not travel far enough to reach gas port due to pressure drop by unsupported case failure. It was not a case of squib load refire. It blew the bolt out stripping bolt carrier rails, the top cover hit me in the head, magazine bulged, floorplate hit table top leaving it's impression as if it were a die. Magazine follower and spring went some where unknown, stock shattered into six pieces. It was a catastrophic failure without catastrophic ending."

"I tried to seat an unfired cartridge in the chamber, it would not fully seat. A visual check found the throat fouled with gilding.
Apparently the Danish issue bullet came apart at the wrong place. When the next round chambered it did not fully lock and the explosion followed."

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AWO425
Posted - 10/17/2005 : 3:27:11 PM
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Unusual way to disassemble a AG m/42b.
Some years back a Ljungmann was blown up here with m/41 ammo, but not that bad.
Only the safety block and the bolt carrier had to be replaced, the rifle is still a good shooter.
I doo feed mine S&B and Handloads, and I hope nothing will go wrong(yes I lube the cases).



jim in Oregon
Posted - 10/17/2005 : 6:09:05 PM
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Dutchman, Per my e-mail to you earlier, when I got home I pulled one of my two Ljungman rifles out and attempted to see if one could pull the trigger, release sear and drop the hammer and get it to fire out of battery (IE;bolt, carrier-cover NOT closed-locked.

I did this with a 1/4"x3/8" slat of hardwood placed mext to the gas port and over the barrel-chamber entrance at the breech so the action-bolt-carrier would not close when released( like when the action cycles during fireing)

Rifle was in the 'fire' position as it concerns safety and after releasing bolt-action carrier-cover, there was about a 1/4" gap, simulating an action which had not closed completely due to an obstruction in the barrel-chamber throat from stripped jacketing such as the poor fellow described in his 'near miss'.

I did this a dozen times and the trigger would not release the sear and drop the hammer with the system in the unlocked position.

Others of you may try this simple experiment on your own.

I think the rifle DID fire out of battery, ( the damage clearly shows this was not a high pressure load or obstructed barrel problem) and the Hanson ammo certainly is suspect, but I think there may have been other issues that contributed to the extreme 'spontaneous dissassembly shown in the pics.

I looked closely at the pics and to my eye, it doesn't appear the shooter ever really stripped the rifle of cosmo and old gunk..including bolt and fireing pin( which is NOT free floating but spring loaded and controlled)

I think he may have experienced a slam fire due to fireing pin protruson(gunk) and possibly even a high or soft primer..

This NORMALLY would be disconcerting in a semi auto weapon but with the addition of the stripped jacketing material from the Hansen contract ammo partially occluding the throat chamber, the slam fire occurred out of battery.

I think the root cause of the destruction was poor firearms housekeeping and the Hansen ammo jacketing issue turned a slam fire into a catastrophe for the rifle and near catastrophe for the shooter.

I invite your own experimentations, but in my simple test, I don't think that a properly functioning, properly cleaned and lubed Ljungman would be capable of fireing out of battery at all.jim
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Edited by - jim in Oregon on 10/17/2005 6:14:27 PM


foudufoot
Posted - 10/17/2005 : 7:50:31 PM
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Thanks Jim for this sobering and thorough analysis. I will certainly stay away from Danish surplus ammo and clean my Ljungman thoroughly before shooting it. All the Best. Dan.


jim in Oregon
Posted - 10/17/2005 : 8:19:02 PM
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My initial experiments are just that..
Whether the rifle will fire ( out of battery) useing the trigger IF the 'gap' is just short of proper lockup of action and bolt is less than 1/4" I don't know yet.

I intend to make thinner shims down to .020" this weekend and see IF the rifle might be fired, (trigger pulled, sear released and hammer dropped) out of proper lockup battery when the cartridge is just twenty thousandths from being properly chambered and action not quite locked up..jim


kriggevaer
Posted - 10/17/2005 : 8:32:18 PM
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Jim your experiment is interesting. I too wondered if there were contributing factors to the failure, although the Danish ammo obviously played a big part. I have never read or heard an explanation of how this ammo was developed and how it managed to get spread around so much. And it surprises me that it still keeps showing up.


AWO425
Posted - 10/18/2005 : 02:22:51 AM
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Have experimented myself with the out of battery issue, it was not possible by trigger pull.
But I had a nearly failure at the rage some time back.
A primer was punctured and the wad was driven in the firing pin chanel and partly jamed the pin.
I was firing slowly, as I noticed a strage primer indention on a ejekted case(modified gas blockm have not hunt my brass down the range), and stoped firing.
The small brass piece came out easely, but it could have been a cause for a bad slamfire or out of battery fire.


jim in Oregon
Posted - 10/18/2005 : 10:12:50 AM
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Kriggevar, Neither have I read or heard just how this Danish contrcat ammo was made and for which 6,5x55 mil weaponry.

The jacketing gild metal and fouling issue and the problems that has caused in even the bolt action Swede Mausers has been docyumented to some degree over 15 years.
Whether the powder burn rate, amount of charge & pressures produced or primer are part of the overall unsuitability of the Hansen Danish HA stamped ammo I don't have documentation on.

Suffice it to say that concerning care and feeding of the Ljungman( or ANY rifle one intends to shoot safely & accurately) that the weapon must be cleane, properly oiled-lubed and fully functional.
The ammo must be such as is suitable for the milsurp in pressure generated, powder burn speed-rate, primer hardness and proper recessing in cartridge case and bullet type.
IF one insists on trying unproven non mil spec ammo in his Ljungman, do so with all precautions.
Eye protection.Rifle is proper condition and maintenence state.
Allow the first and only trial round to be stripped from the mag and chambered.
Verify lockup. Fire the single round and note sound, feel, accuracy and cycling of the action.Action should lock open after one round only.
Examine spent case for any signs of excessive pressures or hard extraction( out of timing due to pressures or powder burn rate)
Examine rifle, chanmber, bore for any signs of excessive fouling.
Then if ALL seems acceptable, load TWO rounds and go thru the process again, adding to your assessment the observation of the second round chambering properly.
If all goes well, try three and repeat all observations.

A chronograph can be a good help to determine IF MV is within or close to Swede milsurp spec of 245-2550 fps with 139-140 grain bullets.

My suggestion is to do your best to replicate ammo which closely matches the Swede milsurp M94/41 ball ammo in velocity, bullet weight and proper cycling.
I have shot the Swede milsurp and FNM ammo both unlubed as well as lightly lubed.I also have made the modifications on both my rifles to moderately adjust the direct impingement gas operation volume at the gas block.

From there you can develop loads that will work well but they must be tried conservatively so that the rifle doesn't attempt to extract when case has not fully obturated, you don't get too violent of pressures and action on the rifle and of course accuracy..jim


MP78
Posted - 10/18/2005 : 10:31:11 AM
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Hello JIO,

I like the info you have put out but more importantly I like the conservative and safe manner you gain it. We all should follow your lead...Jim in Ocala


jim in Oregon
Posted - 10/18/2005 : 11:30:21 AM
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MP78, Thank you..
I consider the AGm/42B Ljungman rifle to be an interesting, acurate and well made semi automatic Mil issue ( rack grade)firearm.
The fact that the Swedes designed and produced it in a relatively short time and it was the first successful mil issue direct impingement gas operated semi auto adds to it's uniqueness.
Add the relatively few produced( about 33,000) and the general condition the surplussed firearms ar in and it is one of my favorite milsurp shooter-collecible rifles.
Early on, the Swedes made the 'B' modifications to the rifle to improve functionality.
Interestingly, they did not make the gas op system adjusible on the Ljungman rifle.
Without much information or history on the Ljungman, I have speculated that they did not make this modification for several reasons:
1st, the rifle was for defense of Sweden, not for use in the deserts of arabia and so their ambient and place of use for the rifle was somewhat predicatable and controllable.
The Swedes did not enter into WWll and so full battlefield trials and conditions never occurred.
Lastly, they had warehouses full of the M94/41B ball ammo and the rifle functioned well with this ammo generally.

In addition, they did advise lubrication of the cartridges in the AGm/42B manual ( the later edition we have been given by Anders' translation efforts) as a precaution probably for the issues they observed under sustained timed or rapid fire as the weapon heats and fouls, the M94/41B ammo does show signs of hard extraction and not quite perfect timing in obturation due to the slower powder burn rate in the ammo.

I have found that by changeing just the powder to a slightly faster burn rate ( Rel 15 or IMR3031 for ex) that even under sustained fire( four 10 round mags loaded back to back w/stripper clips in rapid fire) that the rifle functions perfectly with very little visible marking of brass, good accuracy and flawless cycling.

I kept all other components virtually the same useing either Swede Berdan brass with Berdan primers and 140 grain spitzer bullets or Lapua boxer primed brass and CCI#34 hard primers w/140 grain spitzers..
Installing the adjustible gas block screw-nut enabled me to slightly reduce gas pressures while still maintaining about 2550 fps MV and so reducing the rigorous action and shortening the spent case throw down to 7-9 feet..
Again, I think the AGm/42B rifles are safe, well made, and robust enough for real wartime service use when properly maintained and fed proper ammo..jim


jim in Oregon
Posted - 10/18/2005 : 12:13:42 PM
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Here's one other observation concerning the batch of Hansen Danish ammo that was being shot when the catastrophe occurred.
I looked at the picture that Dutchman posted over on the other Danish Hansen ammo thread and it appears that the Hansen ammunition had been reloaded at some time..
By whom one wonders?

The primer is not original color and there is an additional sideways stamped 'V' over the HA headstamp on the 1948 mfgr'd brass.

SOME QUESTIONS ARE:
Was the Hansen ( berdan primed) brass reloaded with different primers only or were there other changes in components made also?
Were the bullets pulled & reused or is the bullet another type?

Lastly, and it may just be the photograph and lighting, but it appears the primer is not fitted below flush at least on one side of the primer pocket.If this is so,that may have contributed to the slam fire that I suspect occurred in conjunction with a failure to chamber and lock up..jim

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/jim in Oregon/20051018121021_20051014235523_ha1.jpeg
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arado
Posted - 10/18/2005 : 12:41:02 PM
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In reference to an earlier post, the rifle was well maintained and had been used for 30 years. The ammunition normally used is my own reloads with Win 748 or BL2. The cause of the failure was a failed bullet which left jacket/gilding in chamber throat. It did not lock on the next round and fired out of battery. The primer was not high, the firing pin was not stuck exposed, the ammo was not a reload of anyones. The lubrication of cases was Sweden's answer to hard extraction, the Soviet STV was given a fluted chamber, the Hakim adjustable gas as the FN49. The FN49 had firing out of battery also, it was answered by a firing pin lock on later production. I do not believe that you can replicate firing out of battery with spacing shims. This does not address kinetics. I am amazed that you can determine a bolt is full of cosmolene from internet pictures. Incidentally the Danish ammo was acquired decades ago and never fired..all ten rounds. The tilting bolt reached it's pinnacle in the FAL even though our masters dictated the removal of safety sear on semi auto guns. Regards, Gary


jim in Oregon
Posted - 10/18/2005 : 1:23:08 PM
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Gary, Please understand that most of what I have posted above is speculative, inasmuch as we had little first person input concerning what occurred to base or forensics upon.
For those of us who do own and shoot the Ljungman rifles, whateverwe can learn that will help insure they continue to shoot safely and accurately is hoped for.


Concerning your perspective of kinetics, while the rearward force exerted on the action & cycling when a cartridge is fired cannot be duplicated by hand without actually fireing a cartridge, by design, the action, bolt and carrier return to battery at a set speed, based on the springs and rear safety block release, NOT gas pressure.

The action doesn't close any harder when released manually than when in process of fireing after a previous round.

If anything, not having to expend any of it's forward energy to strip the next cartridge from the magazine would say that there is MORE kinetic energy available in a manual test than when fireing..
That is one reason why most who shoot the Ljungman avoid single loading ( for potential slam fires) and load even a single round so the cartridge is stripped from the magazine.

I am glad that you were not seriously injured, and sorry about your rifle.

My thoughts on possible housekeepin-cleaning came from looking at the pictures, and in a separate note to Dutchman, I said that what appeared to be old cosmoline could quite possibly dirt, dust and the residue from the explosion..

I didn't mean to infer that the shooter had reloaded the Hansen ammo, as few folks reload Berdan primed brass or have the Berdan primers..
I have several Hansen Danish 158 grain cartridges at home.The additional headstamp marks shown on the picture Dutchman posted are unfamiliar to me..and the primer color seems odd as all the 30-50 year old milsurp ammo I have and have encountered show similar coloring and ageing on brass and primer.
Anyhow, please don't take anything I have speculated on as a personal affront to you.
If there is any other thoughts or insights you have that you can share I for one am interested.


BigBill
Posted - 10/23/2005 : 4:38:45 PM
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Were CCI #34 nato primers used?? These are thicker walled/harder primers for military semi-auto's with floating firing pins. If the round thats being loaded stops short of fully chambering into full battery position a softer regular standard primer just may go off with the floating firing pin. Could that have caused the problem?(soft primers) I load all my military semi's with CCI #34 primers.

Another problem; I have looked at the Hakim when some were having problems too. I checked the little interupter lever that pops up when the bolt carrier is in full battery won't let the trigger fire unless its in full battery. If its working properly it can't happen. I figured out if hotter ammo is used in the hakim and the gas valve is left in the wide open position the bolt carrier/bolt can actually pull the fired case out of the chamber a split second while the bullet is just passed the gas port thus causing the breech pressure thats still present to blow back at the shooters face. This gun can cycle that fast/quick/soon if its not properly adjusted(hakim). The reaction time on the hakim with a full open gas valve is unbelievable quick one with hot ammo. I know the ljungman dosen't have an adjustable gas valve but I wonder if hotter ammo can cause this in a ljungman too the gas port is fixed wide open.(no adjustable gas valve) Thus simulating an out of battery firing when its actually the breech pressure blowing back when the case is pulled out too soon.

I can only see it being one of the two things happening. What do you think?

I have never shot my ljungman yet and what kind of ammo can i safely shoot out of it? Sellier & Bellot? FNM FMJ?
If i reload with IMR4895 how much powder behind a 140gr bullet is safe in the ljungman?

Maybe an adjustable gas valve is needed in the ljungman like its been done/said here already on other posts.
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Edited by - BigBill on 10/23/2005 4:44:52 PM


AWO425
Posted - 10/25/2005 : 07:47:08 AM
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S&B ammo is good, use it myself.


Hag
Posted - 10/27/2005 : 7:51:36 PM
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Have two AG42B's. Don't shoot them very much. Load 140 grain bullets with AA2520 or AA2700, and chamber each round before casing them. About 20 years ago saw one blow up at the range and several people needed a doctor to remove shrapnel and stitch them up. Unwise fellow inserted a round in the chamber and let the bolt slam shut. Ka-Boom! Both of my rifles indent the primer on a round chambered out of the magazine a scary amount, and I figure a person who will close the bolt on a chambered round has a death wish. After this overwhelming positive sell, does anyone want to buy a rifle ? Excellent condition, extra mags,have 3 thirty? round mags in the original wrappers. They probably won't work without feed lip adjustment. Other good stuff,I think.E-mail is [email protected] Am I breaking any rules here? New at this computer game. Don't want to annoy anyone. Cheers


jim in Oregon
Posted - 10/28/2005 : 12:39:50 PM
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Big Bill, The issue of to violent-fast cycling on the Ljungman (or Hakim) is related to the powder burn rate-speed moreso than the powder charge, tho BOTH need to be considered by the reloader or one who wishes to 'try' any new or surplus ammunition.
Look at your powder burn rate charts which most powder mfgrs and reloading books publish.
I have found that powders which have a burn rate between IMR3031 & REL 15 work very well in the Ljungman when 139-140 grain bullets and quality brass are used.
I use CCI#34 hard primers in my reloads except when reloading Berdan primed Swede made surplus brass.THEN I use the NATO spec .217 Berdan primers made by the Russian Murom Apparatus factory and imported by PMC..
I ALSO develop handloads which are similar in velocity to the Swede milsurp ammo of 2450-2550 FPS MV.

ALWAYS allow the bolt-carrier to strip even a single round from the magazine as this reduces the inertia of the action in closing-chambering.
When trying ANY untested ammo in YOUR rifle, ALWAYS begin with all safety precautions and start with a SINGLE round stripped from the magazine.
Proceed from there IF all functions well and brass doesn't suffer inordinant damage to TWO rounds, each stripped from the magazine.
Continue to the full magazine and from slow fire trials to timed and rapid fire trials and scrutinize, listen and feel ALL after each shot..IF the action cycles too violently and tears the brass up or the second round stovepipes, the ammo has too fast a cycling rate and may be realted to powder burn or load MV or both.so STOP.

I too have found that the Ljungman will not fire out of battery

( with action not fully closed & locked)UNLESS some other bad variables such as I mentioend in a previous post also are at work..

The fireing pin is not free floating in the Ljungman, but spring retained.

This doesn't mean a slam fire cannot occur with overly high or soft primers when coupled with slamming the action closed on an already chambered round NOT stripped from the magazine, OR if the fireing pin is damaged, maladjusted or gummed up in a protruding position.
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Edited by - jim in Oregon on 10/28/2005 12:45:15 PM


jim in Oregon
Posted - 10/28/2005 : 1:16:29 PM
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Hag, You can post items related to Swedish firearms for sale on this forum or on the WANT TO SELL forums atop the main page..
I sent you an e-mail, Jim
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Durchman had posted a long cautionary follow-up in April 2007, which should not be forgotten. His post was more about the accident and about features of the Ljungman Ag 42 b and the Egyptian Hakim, rather than about the Danish ammo as such. Therefore, I have decided to import it here, and to leave a link over there, in the Danish Haerensarsenalens 6,5x55 ammunition thread.

* * *

Dutchman
Posted - 04/29/2007 : 7:42:12 PM
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There has been a long time warning about Danish 6.5x55 m/94 ammunition due to soft jacket material. There are those who doubt this to be a real problem. And there are those who continue to shoot this ammunition. It is widely available, still, in the United States due mainly to the fact that those who know about it won't touch it with a ten foot pole. It makes nice display ammo. Think of it as nothing more than that.

In the Ag42b Ljungman rifle (and failures in the Hakim by proxy):

As jacket material sheds with each shot, the bore becomes clogged to the point that pressure increases drastically. By the time the bullet reaches the gas port the pressure has not subsided as it normally would and the bolt is thrown back violently to rip off the case rim exhausting tens of thousands of pounds of gas pressure into the action... right in front of the shooter's face. The Ljungman and Hakim will both exhaust this gas downward into the magazine well, the magazine body itself, which will then be blown from the rifle and destoyed. At the same time the stock is blown apart at the middle guard screw.... while you're holding it.

Failures of the Hakim are usually caused by slow burning powders, i.e. Turkish 8x57. The dynamics of the failure are the same, as the bullet passes the gas port the pressure is still extremely high but the direct gas impingment does its job and starts to open the bolt. The obturation of the cartridge case hasn't yet subsided so the violent extraction pulls off a portion of the case rim, dumping thousands of pounds of pressure into the action. I've personally witnessed such a failure so I'm intimately familiar with the after effects. I was 8 feet away from the shooter and was hit by pieces of the magazine as they launched into space after they bounced off the ground..and me.

We've not seen an example of a Swedish Mauser destroyed by this situation that is verifiable, but be advised that when a 1894/96 Mauser action fails it can sheer the two locking lugs of the bolt and the bolt will exit the rifle rearwards.

While holding your rifle to your shoulder I want you to think about where that bolt would then end up. There have been deaths attributed to this exact Swedish Mauser failure *however* we don't know the exact cause. The dynamics of the failure are the same, however. Its also possible for the receiver ring to fail which pretty much means a chunk of receiver will exit the rifle due to excess strain on the locking lug surfaces resulting in stretching of the ring to the point that it *grenades*. That would be about 8 inches in front of your head. The human forehead seems to be a magnet for chunks of
jagged steel flying through the air. It will totally ruin your day.

Is it worth shooting this ammo to learn these facts first hand?
Do you have children? Life and medical insurance? Ever hear of Charles Darwin and the cleansing of the gene pool? We promise that if you're killed this way we won't grieve your death but we will help your widow sell off your gun collection, and take her on a nice Carribean cruise with the life insurance money while your children visit your sister in Omaha. Think about that.

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This 8x57 was fired in a Hakim but shows the rim ripped open by premature extraction caused from slow burning powder resulting excessive port pressure.

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Edited by - Dutchman on 04/29/2007 7:46:24 PM
 
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