Gunboards Forums banner
1 - 10 of 10 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,197 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
There has been a lot of posts about M48 scoped rifles lately.

I would like point out to the shooters. Collectors may not be interested in such trivia.

The much talked about Zrak scopes cammed for 8mm.

These scopes are extremely hard to use, the exception being very young folks with exc. eyes. The b model is a little better, but the reticles are not the type most of us like.

All of our clubs serious 8mm shooters use other types of scopes, more user friendly.

The 8mm camming feature means absolutely nothing unless you are using seventies or newer Yugo Milsurp ammo. The Yugo "sniper" ammo is hard to find as is the seventies or newer Yugo. If there is some, it is very expensive.

Handloading is an option for some.

Commercial 8mm is never loaded correct, Usually underloaded.

Earlier Yugo 8mm is not consistant enough for any serious work. But it is good for plinking and initial zeroing.

So the camming is meaningless. To many variences in ammo.

One of the most popular type of scope used on the Mausers is the old steel tube Weaver type K with very fine cross hairs. Exc. for ranges up to 1,000 yds.

Other scopes with better reticles are often used, like mil dot, for fast target aquisiton for various ranges.

Super large bell high powered scopes look gaudy and are really not needed for most shooters of 8mm.

The Zrak mounts and scopes are cool for wall hangers, but serious shooters shun them from my experience.

While I'm here. The Zrak mounts are a PITA if you shoot a lot. A good percentage of them tend to have issues witht he back mount and all the adjustments not being stable.

We worked for years with expert gunsmiths on this issue.

I suspect that a lot of the imported D&T M48s had soldered or welded mounts because of this problem.j

We found the Leupold two piece made for charger bridge Mauser mounts worked well for years.
It takes a good smith to install them correctly. Using larger than normal screws and laser sighting. Not cheap, but no issues for years.

Leupold mounts look very similar to expensive European and Zrak mounts and cost under $50. Twice that to have them installed properly.
But still compared to Zrak, its cheap and it works.


Also I saw mentioned that the charger bridge being ground off is a sign of "original" it is NOT.
There were some of the D&T M48s that had ground off bridges, but few.

Most of the mounts have a rear mount that is compatible with the charger bridge. You have dig deep to find the right ones.

As mentioned this is for those that plan to shoot their M48 a lot with a scope.

Collectors will not be concerned with the pitfalls of Zrak.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,197 Posts
Discussion Starter · #2 · (Edited)
For those that like 8mm long range shooting.

The rifle pictured was my favorite shooter. A decaded ago we used to shoot 8mm three times a week all day. Testing and refining techniques etc.

I used this rifle to clean up the black left on any three in. shoot N see targets at a few hundred yards at the end of each day.

I used several different scopes on it.

The rifle was unissued when I got it decades ago. I shot OVER 20,000 rnds. through it. Yes, I said over 20,000. 8mm was under ten cents per round then.

Back then 8mm was cheap and we bought it by the pallet. That is the Yugo sniper or seventies or newer 8mm.

I bought the Zrak mount and had it installed by smith that specialized in the Zrak installations. No longer in business.

Several of the fixes can't be seen, but the piece of wood used as a wedge in the disconnect feature can be seen.

The info. on the use of this rifle is interesting, since the myth about barrels only being good for around 10,000 rnds. used to circulate around the internet.

The rifle was very well taken care of and only needed a re crowning twice.

I never did find out what type of wood was used for the stock, but it was not the yellow orange soft wood most had. It looked more like Walnut and was a much harder wood. Elm was mentioned.

The M48s with the yellow orange softer wood would require the cross bolt on the recoil lug to be re inforced with some strong compound to prevent shifting with lots of shooting.

The tell tale signs are the cross bolt shifting to the rear, visible on the outside of the stock by small chips around the rear of the cross bolt.

Later as 24/47s became available they proved to be exc. shooters with new barrels.

We would look for the ones with new barrels and the old Walnut stocks that were much slimmer than the replacement wood, two by fours.

Had the bolt turned down and a Leupold mount installed by experts. They were exc. 8mm shooters.

In our club all rifles that were to be scoped were checked by the collectors to not be a rare piece. Then we let our "Bubba" gunsmith do the work for an exc. shooter.

Most of the info. on the Milsurp trials of over eight years has been lost on my old computer and I post from memory.

All 8mm rifles are now sold, since the cost of ammo went up.

Scoped Yugos did not sell for much more than regular Yugos. Very few serious 8mm shooters out there nowdays.

As a heads up about scoping Mausers.

Find a Mauser that shoots so well it needs a scope to get full potential out of it.

Not the other way around. Scope any Mauser, then see how it shoots is not cost productive.

Added note.

Almost all of the real imported so called X snipers had sewer pipe bores, worn throats, crowns were, "iffy, but could be fixed.
No headspace problems EVER.
The imported Yugos with good bores were very scarce from my experience and we shot a lot of them.

So re scoping is more of a collector thing for a cool look. Nothing wrong with that.

M48 and 24/47s are kick butt rifles. Fun to shoot and plink with also.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,079 Posts
Ya know, speaking of all the worn bosnian snipers if folks have such laying about as clapped out rifle possessions, I mean, there is a guy selling m48 new in the white m48 barrels from new old stock, one or two at a time at the two main auction sites, I mean, I bought two of them. I believe most gunsmiths can handle a rebarrel job for a 98 intermediate mauser. Also, on the two complete early mauser complete base/rings sets I received today from Germany, and a set of mauser rings without bases with the same order, I noticed alot of former solder was used on bases and screws, even the rings. I suppose former users in Germany soldered a scope to the halves of rings, which goes a long way to show what the real problem is on those early styles. I'm thinking about doing a solder job myself unless i want to "cheat" and use green loctite that has been working out for me on alot of things. I mean, on solder, I have the stuff you can get from stores with 10% sliver in it, which is supposedly more than adequate for this sort of thing, cause if ya had to use mostly silver solder, you'd have to go about one thousand degrees, way more than a propane torch can handle.

Yeah, I studied RH7777's prevous mauser 48 posts real close, he has more experience with these and 8mm than I, to sure of that. The scope I chose for my ex scoped is a simmons vintage made in japan model in 3x9x40, but I am thinking about putting on a vintage weaver, errr, who says they didn't have some weavers or a cheap simmons laying around, errrr, ha, ya know, but I'd like to have more than four power. Hopefully the vintage simmons aint a complete total el cheapo waste of time. Maybe I could really be realistic and solder on a half of a binocular or make a real looking field expedient scope from say, one of those zrak rpg sights, ha, ya know. Or I could just plunk on a Leupold VX2 or cheaper model vx1. Or I could get a really humongous bell scope and use the mauser high rings instead of the lower rings I have.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,197 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
RH7777: Did you ever take a scoped 8mm 98 Mauser back to 600 , 800 or 1000 yds ? Did it hold well ?
Yes, we took them out to 1,000 yds. Most of the shooting was done 400 to 600 yds.

I don't have time to give details, but will do so later.

I am sure most know that 8mm is not a optimum round for match shooting. But we set out to debunk the myths of about center mass at 400 yds. or some such myth. Made up by people who never tested out a large sampling with the RIGHT ammo. Many shooters, many rifles, as well as bench vise trials to illiminate the human factor as much as possible.

At the time it also annoyed us that that people would post crap on accuracy and never tested it out or used a sampling of one or two rifles bought at the local Big 5. Some gun rags had articles about a particular type of rifle and how it shot from a sampling of ONE with some ammo they picked up at the local gun show.

I'm sure you guys know the routine.



Along the same lines of what you did with the #5MK1 trials at 600 yds.

We did this for years and covered several of the mainstream milsurps on the market.
But the main focus was on 8mm and 7.62X54R. Ammo was cheap and exc. back then.

Also to call attention to military sniper rifles and how they were selected to become sniper rifles and what the arsenals did to improve certain aspects, like trigger pull, bedding, etc. Also minimum accuracy requirments for a rifle to be picked to be made into a real sniper rifles.

There used to be a lot of hog wash on these forums about this subject.

Most people at that time did not know the difference between a real M/N sniper and one cobbled together for the American market using a regular field rifle and attaching a scope on it JUST for the American appitite for M/N snipers. At that time I think they were done in mass for our importers out Belarus or the Ukraine IIRC.

I'll give some details on 8mm later. I lost a lot of the info. on my old puter and there are only a few suprises as to what the 8mm is capable of.


The 8mm trials went through a LONG progression to find out the optimum accuracy excepted with a talented shooter. Which was the bottom line.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,197 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
RH7777: Did you ever take a scoped 8mm 98 Mauser back to 600 , 800 or 1000 yds ? Did it hold well ?

I just re read your post and realized you asked about Mauser 98 not M48.

I'll leave my incorrect response post up, someone might get some insight out of it.



In 8mm Mausers that were tested extensively.

M48s in all variations, scoped.

I tested a good sampling of long barreled 8mm Mausers with iron sights. None were scoped.

The 98/22s were hands down the most accurate shooters.

Some of the K Kale Turks were good.

K98s


Without getting into too much detail in a nutshell. The 98/22s with iron sights could consistantly hit a 2X3 steel plate at 600 yds. Lots of variables in conditions.
At 100 yds. they would do almost all touching holes with Yugo M75 ammo.

Hitting the steel plate consistantly at 1,000 yds. required skill and talent, but the rifle was capable of it.

In a vise with Yugo seventies or newer ammo hitting the plates up to 1,000 yds. was doable.

I should note that my mindset was to see what the rifles were capable of. Not the shooter.

On a side note. I shot the long barreled Mausers a lot, but scoped none.

I realized that the long barreled Mausers did not have an advantage over the short barreled version even at longer range. Other than a little more speed and bullet drop at long range was a little less.

So I focused on the M48s. They would shoot as well, and were much more available in unissued with new barrels.

So no 98/22 were scoped. They are exc. shooters and more in the realm of collectors, not exactly plentiful.

The M48s that proved to be exc. shooters were fine tuned, the long rifles were never messed with or scoped.

The problem nowdays is ammo.

For long range consistancy in Milsurp 8mm.

The P coded German 8mm had some batches that were absolutly the finest flying bullets ever. There were lots of variations due to storage etc.
But the batches that were good were the nuts in 8mm milsurp.
This particular batch of German 8mm was handled by J&G exclusively decades ago.
The bullet design must have been a key in the quality, they are still in demand by match shooters.

The Yugo sniper ammo or seventies or newer 8mm is very close to the no longer available German P codes.

These are the only two milsurp 8mm that were consistant enough for long range work.

All the rest was relegated to plinking only in any Mauser.

Just for interest. I would take a K Kale Turk with a good bore and good shooter and run hundreds of rounds through it in rapid fire. To see how well it held zero under extreme combat conditions with a very hot barrel.

Some of those results were interesting.

Did the same with the #5MK1 and British surplus ammo to test out the wandering zero myth.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
90 Posts
Actually the Zrak 8x56 with their bases and rings set up...on a Mauser is quite impressive. Their rings and bases are identical and true to the German design. But many are not used to the intricacies of how to adjust them for alignment. Once you get the simple hang of it, it becomes second nature....just like the Europeans that swear by them. Either way they put fun in the gun.
 

·
Gold Bullet member
Joined
·
13,893 Posts
In 8mm, M75 is about all I shoot. It will definitely go sub-MOA. I had a reason to stock it while the getting was good. Plus, I use it for all sniper and other accuracy testing. That way I get apples to apples comparisons.
 

·
Silver Bullet Member
Joined
·
7,714 Posts
RH7777., sounds like you have a lot of trigger time on M48 and other Mauser rifles..
Appreciate the tips on other optics choices..

ZRAK optics do have clear glass.
However the reticule can vary on how clear it appears.
I actually like the inverted chevron.

I have a Zastava 59/66 with a ZRAK M89 scope set up as a so called Bosnian DMR clone.
Good shooter.
I also enjoy a couple of Zastava M76 rifles with ZRAK scopes.
I have a Zastava M70 AK with a ZRAK M76 scope as well as a M77 in .308 with a ZRAK.
Always hoped to get a set of 7.62x39 and 7.62x51cams for those scopes., but never found a set.

I have a variety of 8mm and the other calibers to determine which is preferred by the rifles.

I have an extra ZRAK 8mm scope and the rings for a M48 set up., but no M48 until I find the right one.

I get the part about which optics work best vs a ZRAK 4 X scope on an older milsurp like a M48 or other Mauser AK etc., etc.
But that is not why I use them in the various rifles.
I like to set them up as close to original as I can. Then try to get the best performance using military ammo etc.

I'm not a precision shooter., but if I want to get good results with quality ammo, decent optics at higher magnification and ease of adjustment.
An affordable Remington 700 is fine and pretty much hits where I aim within a couple inches.
 
1 - 10 of 10 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top