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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Here is that Big 5 1931 Izhevsk M91/59. (The receiver is also a 1931 Izhevsk.) That the stock is Beech and the way it is made have me wondering if it was made specifically for the M91/59. First, it is not likely WW II vintage. It appears "newly" made, but is cut for the earlier receiver with a narrow tang. It has no stock mortise for the M38 or M44 style carbine rear sight mounting sleeve. Since it also lacks a bayonet relief cut, I do not think that it was made for either of those two carbines. Often a M91/30 stock when cut down for use on a M91/59 will have a horizontal notch on the front tip of the stock under the nosecap. It is a remnant from the original SSE cut. This stock doesn't have that notch. (This is not conclusive as I doubt that the SSE cuts were located with consistent precision.) So, it may not be a cut-down M91/30 stock. The stock uses the folded-tab sling slot insert in front and the push-in type insert in the rear. The buttstock does have a small toe splice and its left side has three atypical rectangular patches. The top of the buttstock has the boxed "17" and the double-boxed "20" - Bulgarian marks? Has there been a recent import of Soviet weapons from Bulgarian stores? The Century import mark is of a different style than I have seen before. Also, the stamped numbers on the floorplate use the "standard" Soviet "three" (style matches the barrel), but the buttplate and the bolt use the Cyrillic "3" (Z) as threes! Odd...as if made for the American market as we use both styles of threes. Why put Z's in the body of a serial number? DDR
 

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Mr. Flashy Pants
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I think it probably is as the only beech stocks like that I've seen have been for carbines. In other words, I've never heard of a beech M91/30 stock before (I know there's plenty I haven't seen or heard of) so if (I know, if) they don't exist, how could they be cut down. This is excepting the Hungarian, and possibly other Eastern European M91/30s stocks, but this is clearly not one of them as they have their own distinctive characteristics.


Check out the third stock on this page.
 

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Mr. Flashy Pants
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As for the "3/Z" issue, if these were made outside the Soviet Union itself then they might not have recognized the difference or just had that style of 3 in the number stamp because there wasn't a difference. I'd say the floorplate could very well be original to the M91/30. I have some M91/59s that seem to have original parts as if they were cut down on a piece by piece basis rather than disassembled with parts thrown in bins and then cut down and reassembled.

I haven't had my M91/59s out in a while, maybe it's time I took another look at them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
Thanks, Ted! I really need to look through my pile. I've only taken three or four apart. Headed out this way anytime soon?

Accumulated M91/59's:

1) Scrubbed
2) Scrubbed
3) 1924 Izhevsk "hex"
4) 1925 Tula "hex"
5) 1929 Izhevsk "hex"
6) 1931 Izhevsk "hex" (purpose-built? Beech stock)
7) 1931 Tula "hex"
8) 1932 Izhevsk "hex"
9) 1933 Izhevsk "hex"
10) 1933 Tula "hex"
11) 1934 Izhevsk "hex"
12) 1934 Tula "hex"
13) 1935 Izhevsk "hex"
14) 1935 Tula "hex"
15) 1937 Izhevsk
16) 1938 Izhevsk
17) 1938 Tula
18) 1939 Izhevsk (M38 Cz-stamped Beech stock; blue/black SSE's)
19) 1939 Tula
20) 1940 Izhevsk
21) 1940 Tula
22) 1941 Izhevsk
23) 1942 Izhevsk
24) 1942 Izhevsk (second one for some reason)
25) 1942 Tula
26) 1943 Izhevsk
27) 1943 Izhevsk (second one for some reason)
28) 1943 Izhevsk (M44 stock)
29) 1943 Tula
30) 1944 Izhevsk
31) 1944 Tula
 

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Thanks, Ted! I really need to look through my pile. I've only taken three or four apart. Headed out this way anytime soon?

Accumulated M91/59's:

1) Scrubbed
2) Scrubbed
3) 1924 Izhevsk "hex"
4) 1925 Tula "hex"
5) 1929 Izhevsk "hex"
6) 1931 Izhevsk "hex" (purpose-built? Beech stock)
7) 1931 Tula "hex"
8) 1932 Izhevsk "hex"
9) 1933 Izhevsk "hex"
10) 1933 Tula "hex"
11) 1934 Izhevsk "hex"
12) 1934 Tula "hex"
13) 1935 Izhevsk "hex"
14) 1935 Tula "hex"
15) 1937 Izhevsk
16) 1938 Izhevsk
17) 1938 Tula
18) 1939 Izhevsk (M38 Beech stock)
19) 1939 Tula
20) 1940 Izhevsk
21) 1940 Tula
22) 1941 Izhevsk
23) 1942 Izhevsk
24) 1942 Izhevsk (second one for some reason)
25) 1942 Tula
26) 1943 Izhevsk
27) 1943 Izhevsk (second one for some reason)
28) 1943 Izhevsk (M44 stock)
29) 1943 Tula
30) 1944 Izhevsk
31) 1944 Tula
Of those, which/how many would not be considered "blondes", compared to other MNs such as 91/30, M-38 and M-44? I believe all of my 91/59s are beech and all are most "blondies".

Three of the first of the ladies...
 

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The subject of 91-30 beech stocks came up on GB III about two years ago. I've got one and have seen two others.....mine is a '30 Tula, the other two were '38 & '40 Tulas (probably coincidence that all are Tulas). Others were reported from both current refurbs and previous Balkan imports, so.....they are out there and some probably got chopped into 91/59s. Pics of mine are on a dead hard drive and the rifle is in deep storage, sorry.
 

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Diamond w/Oak Clusters and Swords Bullet Member
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Shy: Maybe four or five "blondes", IIRC. Most are refurbed older stocks left in a medium or "honey" color. Not really blonde but not original, either. Like they removed some of the stain before the re-shellacing. I think there are only two or three Beech stocks - the rest are Birch.

rocker98: One of the M91/59's has the blue-black press-in SSE's and I believe that one has a Czech stock. DDR
 

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Shy: Maybe four or five "blondes", IIRC. Most are refurbed older stocks left in a medium or "honey" color. Not really blonde but not original, either. Like they removed some of the stain before the re-shellacing. I think there are only two or three Beech stocks - the rest are Birch.

Rocker98: One of the M91/59's has the blue-black SSE's and I believe that stock to be Czech. DDR
To me there is not much difference between a "honey blonde" and a "blonde". Both are fun to play with. :p They have a very different attitude compared to the redhead M-44s.
 

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Diamond w/Oak Clusters and Swords Bullet Member
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Gary, follow the link in my first post.

I'd sure like to see pictures of a Soviet beech M91/30 stock. I should probably look through mine too and make sure one didn't slip in un-noticed. It would be a new one on me.

Shy, your bottom rifle looks like birch to me.
Well I DID miss that link:eek: I knew you weren't slipping:D But he does not show the other side, and the marks on top by the butt plate are similar.

Gary
 

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Diamond w/Oak Clusters and Swords Bullet Member
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Shy: Maybe four or five "blondes", IIRC. Most are refurbed older stocks left in a medium or "honey" color. Not really blonde but not original, either. Like they removed some of the stain before the re-shellacing. I think there are only two or three Beech stocks - the rest are Birch.

rocker98: One of the M91/59's has the blue-black press-in SSE's and I believe that one has a Czech stock. DDR
The stock I pictured is an M44. I have yet to see a Czech stocked 91/59. Still looking. At the rate the 91/59's left Big 5's around here, it should help in my search. They will be getting more:cool:, I know a few managers who have told me so. In this area, most stores (if not every one) got one. When they went on sale, they disappeared. Good sellers for Big 5.

Gary
 

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Diamond w/Oak Clusters and Swords Bullet Member
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Discussion Starter · #17 · (Edited)
Seems like someone mentioned that those boxed numbers were Bulgarian inventory or inspector's numbers or such and the initial lot of M91/59's were imported from Bulgarian stores of Soviet weapons, giving rise to the rumor that M91/59's were Bulgarian in origin. The most common boxed numbers found on my M91/59's are the "17" and "20"; other boxed numbers found are "3", "8", and "10". Do other weapons from Bulgaria have the same boxed number stampings?

I'll try and locate that Cz-stocked one tomorrow. DDR
 

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Diamond w/Oak Clusters and Swords Bullet Member
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The top stamp DOES look like a boxed 3.

BUTT, the stamps on the butt side (cheek?) are Czech.

View attachment 2914

Gary
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I surely don't know the whole story, but I'm convinced that the Czechs either had some hand in building some, furnishing parts for some, using/testing some, or maybe just storing some. One of those scrubbed ones has a Cz mark on the underside of the barrel chamber. DDR
 

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Of course they did. There is no argument there. I am only trying to point out the similarities of the stocks in question. BUT, I would think that a Bulgarian stock would have a different marking. My M44 is dated 1948. The only Bulgarian marked rifle I have is an M91. And that is still not a sure thing. I think the B in circle mark is still in question. Other than that, the M91 has no markings that "say" Bulgarian.

Now, the M44 was marked "later". Either in 1948, or after. So I guess that can not be a very good comparison. Others will have much more than I do to go on.

Gary
 
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