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LeeSpeed
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1024 Posts
Posted - 07/28/2007 : 2:49:03 PM
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Hunting season is right around the corner so I decided to to put some grouse loads together. I still have a few of those Flying Beercans laying about the place so I took them and some S&B 193 grain bullets and loaded them over a light charge of Green Dot.

Wouldn'tcha know they shoot dead on for windage and just a bit high at 20 meters, the typical range I see grouse at in the woods. Accuracy is everything I ould hope for and these loads promise to put some grouse in the pot even if the elk and bear elude me!

Here are three shots fired at 20 meters from sitting on the ground.



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For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Jn 3:16 Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum.

Packrattusnongratus
Gunboards Member



37 Posts
Posted - 07/28/2007 : 6:17:31 PM
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Looks like you have it in the bag. I might try to use some 38 wadcutters if I get some 9.3 dies from RCE. I could swage up some of most any kind of .358 to .366. And green dot is my choice as I have a lot of it. Then I'll go to red dot. Would Trail Boss do any good? I may be getting some soon. Good luck on the low velocity loads. Packrattusnongratus


Husky Varmit
Gunboards Member



USA
10 Posts
Posted - 07/28/2007 : 10:55:53 PM
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Let's see if I got this right:
9.3? Check.
grouse? Check.

Yep, that's what he said!

My God man, what would you use for something like a moose? I might could look into a M107 175mm howitzer. Oops, forgot, Swedish sporting - not sure the Haubits 77 can be used for sport.

Bob



Landy
Gunboards Member



USA
17 Posts
Posted - 07/28/2007 : 11:56:03 PM
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Grouse / small game loads for big game rifles are such good practise and fun that we can overlook that they can be a safety item as well, if you hunt in remote and rugged country.

Landy


LeeSpeed
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1024 Posts
Posted - 07/29/2007 : 09:04:39 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Husky Varmit

Let's see if I got this right:
9.3? Check.
grouse? Check.

Yep, that's what he said!
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Not sure where you are from so maybe you are unfamiliar with the use of a rifle and light loads for grouse, and maybe I should have given more explanation for those not familiar with our conditions.

Here in the West, everything is bigger, and grouse can easily go 300 to 350 pounds on-the-hoof...

HA!!

Just kidding.

Seriously, grouse have traditionally been shot with pistols and rifles, the use of both of which are quite legal and effective here. In fact, years ago, many of the old time gun writers used to always include a very light load similar or identical to a European gallery load when citing handloads for deer and elk rifles. Such loads were routinely used for grouse and snowshoe hare, etc.

Really, due to our season overlap, a combination gun is very practical. I have owned such guns in the past and they provide an instant choice of birdshot or rifle bullet. Other options are to carry a .22 pistol which I have done from time-to-time or, as I did for a few years, a cheap, very light-weight single-shot shotgun with a youth stock and the barrel hacksawed off to just make legal minimum length and legal OAL. With a light sling it was always ready and that thing collected quite a few grouse along the trail, but it was still something extra to lug along.

The concept of grouse loads revolves around using a load that is accurate enough and prints close enough to the big bore's sights at grouse-shooting range to hit the head of the bird while at the same time using a bullet and low-enough velocity that a body shot will not destroy all meat.

The load I am using probably generates about 1200 fps or so {I haven't chronographed it} so it is easy to see that it is approaching .357 Mag performance and thus possibly may be too explosive even yet. With the S&B 193 bullet, it might be comparable to a 9.3x57R load.

As an aside, these loads are so fun to shoot that when I had my son fire one shot to see where the bullet fell for him, the rest of the ammo I had loaded pretty quickly went downrange as well...

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For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Jn 3:16 Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum.


Pelagius
Gunboards Member



Canada
32 Posts
Posted - 07/29/2007 : 11:39:34 AM
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S&B 193 grain bullets? That's the first that I've heard of them.

Is this something that Graf's might sell? I'm asking because I know of a Canadian distributor who carries their products.

Keep up the good work Lee Speed! Without you I never would have thought of 9.3mm as the go to round for everything from grouse to elephant, lol!


Kwahe
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
128 Posts
Posted - 07/29/2007 : 5:43:35 PM
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Hi Lee!!
Nice work with those grouse loads. Very interesting! Would you be willing to divulge your dosage of Green Dot for your S&B loads? Please? Also, did you find it necessary to use any wadding in the case to keep the powder back against the primer?
These velocities (~1200 fps) sound wonderful for small game, and perhaps quite usable for the lead cast slugs that Huntington sells (200 grains, $10.98 per 50, 0.365 inches) without having to worry about leading of the barrel. Also, Graf's has a couple of 0.365s in cast bullets and a couple jacketed slugs for the 9x18 Makarov (90-100 grains), also 0.365 in. These babies pop out of my rifle like little demons, and I'd like to know how to slow them down using pistol powders. You seem to have a grasp of this whole concept. I'd (we'd) love to know what you think. Also, paper-patching lead .358 caliber jobbies is do-able, for sure, don't you think?
By the by, those Makarovs are just $7/100.
Hope you're well, Lee. By the looks of your grin, I'm guessing pretty fine...
Kwahe


capnduane
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1277 Posts
Posted - 07/29/2007 : 7:00:45 PM
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In my younger days I used to Deer hunt the Sierras up near Bakersfield, Ca. I made up some light loads with 100gr Speer Plinkers for my 30/06. Chipmunks, Ground Squirrels, Tree Squirrels, Mountain Quail, Rabbits and Bandtailed Pigeons all were collected for the camp pot. Well, maybe not the chipmunks! Those 300lb Grouse sound interesting. I'm sure you guys just wing'em and then lasso them around the neck and lead them down to camp? Man, It would take days to pack one of them off the mountain! Then again, you could do like the indians did, and just move camp to the meat!

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Swedish & South American Mausers, Mosins, Enfields, Swiss and some U.S.


LeeSpeed
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1024 Posts
Posted - 07/29/2007 : 8:34:06 PM
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Move the camp to meat! Now THAT's the ultimate answer to the age-old dilemma of the Cranky Mule.

As for the various options for the light load, I'm steering away from those .365 inch lead bullets since they are under groove depth for my rifles and I suspect severe leading will result.

Kwahe, glad to hear from you and yes indeed, God be praised, I'm fine as frog's hair! As for those available 9mm Makarov JACKETED bullets at .365, they sound very interesting to me and for a long time I've been curious about playing with those but I just haven't got around to it. Fishing season has taken some of my outdoor time and then came hay season, and trail clearing and etc. Getting set for red meat season now though. Have 276 trout in the freezer {brooks and rainbows} so the Omega-3 issue is solved for the coming year! I suspect those light 95 grain Mak bullets might stick in the barrel with underpowered charges, so keep a long rod handy to drive them out if indeed that occurs. And don't shoot fast rapid fire till you are deadsure the charge gets EVERY one downrange!

The paper-patching of .358 cast bullets seems like an absolute winner and I may try some of this later in the year as I have a jar of 200 grain cast .358's sitting on my loading bench.

I settled on my light load by perusing the entries for .35 Remington, .350 Remington Magnum and .358 Winchester in the Lyman 3rd Edition Cast bullet Handbook. I found a scoop in my LEE powder scoop set that gives about 11.5 grains of Green Dot {it varies some...} and had at it. I must state clearly that I am an "intuitive" handloader. I read what I can, think about what worked in the past and then I give it a whirl. I'm always amazed by those that can reduce this sport to mathematics since I've always had trouble reducing addition and subtraction to mathematics!

That is not to be flippant, but simply true, that's how I handload. In this case, first load worked and I'm stopping right here since they look OK for zero as long as I keep the crosshairs at the base of the bird's neck up close and just hold for the bottom of the bird at 30 yards or so max range {bullet "rises" some at that distance}. That's as far as I'll ever have a whack at a grouse I suspect.

Truthfully, these loads seem so perfect for such mundane stuff as grouse shooting they beg the question as to what else they'd be good for. I bet they would punch right clear thru a chicken-chasing dog and when we start butchering lambs in a few months, head shots at 25 or so yards on the more skittish ones seem no trouble at all and as for snowshoe hares...!

I used no filler as I gave up on fillers for safety reasons years ago. As far as I'm concerned it is easy for such occaisional shots to use the rifle to position the powder rather than risk a ringed chamber with a filler. Having said that, I have no idea if these loads are safe, though primers backed out just a smidge, indents were rounded and the primers were rounded on all fired cases. I also take care to double check after charging to make sure there are no double-charged cases as I'm guessing 23 grains of Green Dot would cause damage to the gun and maybe me, too!

As always, I do not recommend ANY load I shoot. I tell you as an answer to a question, but not to recommend a load, as I have no idea what the specifics of anybody else's rifle is and any load I cook up may wreck somebody's rifle. Might even wreck mine! In fact, one question that remains unanswered is how these loads will perform in deep cold. Will a bullet stick in the barrel? Will I get misfires due to powder positioning? I don't know. I chose 11.5 grains instead of a lower charge because of this issue though I really do not know if my charge will solve the problem. Fast-burning pistol and shotgun powders are not things to get lackadaisical with in a rifle. It is too easy to wreck a gun.

The 193 grain S&B's were sent to me from a very nice chap overseas. I believe they are meant for the 9.3x72R and MAN do I wish they were available here. I went totally the wrong direction in my first test of them at high velocity some time ago. They seem to like these low-power loads, loads that seem to duplicate performance {not load} of a 9.3x57Rim or light-bullet .38-55 or something along those lines. Frankly, I have been shooting my SAKO .375 H&H Magnum a lot lately and I'd forgotten just how much pure fun and enjoyment can be got from a load with zero recoil!

Due to the velocity of these loads, I suspect they might ricochet some, so that should be taken into consideration.

They should also make good put-down loads for crippled deer so I'll likely carry a pocketful thru the entire coming season.

I have never had any more pure fun than I have with these 9.3x57's. I sure hope Graf's brings in the 285 Prvi's again...

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For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Jn 3:16 Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum.


Husky Varmit
Gunboards Member



USA
10 Posts
Posted - 07/29/2007 : 8:53:04 PM
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Love it!

Your reply shows that you accepted and embraced the levity implied in my post.

BUT! You are gonna try and tell tall tales to a TEXAN? Now, we don't have many grouse here in the Panhandle, but from your description they sound a little like a baby roadrunner.

Seriously, I am familiar with trying to find loads that allow multiple uses from a single favorite rifle (and pistol also). In the 5+ decades I have hunted, I am still trying to find some of those 'perfect loads'.

As a matter of fact, I spent all morning and part of the afternoon (until it just got too darn HOT) last week at the range trying to decide what to carry this fall for our burgeoning population of feral hogs. Basically, what I want doesn't exist in today's technology and I am going to have to continue carrying two guns - a rifle and a pistol. But I had a wonderful day blasting sunflowers with a .177 air rifle, .22 bull barrel, .223, .270, 8mm and 45 ACP. There were a LOT of sunflowers and the breeze was making them sway slowly, providing perfect targets.

Bob





Ordtech
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
150 Posts
Posted - 08/03/2007 : 11:03:06 AM
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More good info from you gentleman, as expected.
I've been off moving, traveling, and generally not reloading and shooting.
I expect to restart in the next week or two and explore the paperpatch pistol bullets, particularly with Trailboss powder.
I got some 9#, 100% cotton paper from Buffalo Arms after finding nothing uner 24# locally. 24# would work well if one wants to patch .360 cast lead up to .375! Too Thick to for even a "loose" 9.3.
Chrony Beta is sitting in it's box on my desk begging me to give it some work.
Will post with a few pictures of my patching efforts this month.
Cheers and good, safe shooting.
Dennis


SteveR_1
Gunboards Premium Member



134 Posts
Posted - 08/10/2007 : 09:39:24 AM
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Hi Lee,

I emailed Graf's about 2 weeks ago, and asked about the Prvi 285 gr, and they said that they expect a shipment in from overseas. Basically that it takes a little while to restock due to time delay with importing. So I hope they will be in stock soon.

Steve


LeeSpeed
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1024 Posts
Posted - 08/10/2007 : 11:27:29 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by SteveR_1

Hi Lee,

I emailed Graf's about 2 weeks ago, and asked about the Prvi 285 gr, and they said that they expect a shipment in from overseas. Basically that it takes a little while to restock due to time delay with importing. So I hope they will be in stock soon.

Steve

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I hope you are right but fear otherwise.

I was told they expect a shipment, but they don't expect the 285 Prvi's to be on it!

I hope you are right and I am wrong!

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For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Jn 3:16 Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum.


Kwahe
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
128 Posts
Posted - 08/13/2007 : 9:07:23 PM
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Greetings gentles.
It will indeed be nice to have those prvi's back on the block...I find I am hoarding my meager supply. Not so the ill-reputed 200-grain leadheads from Huntington...I shot them up, and here's how.
Finding on previous experiments with the undersized heads (0.365") a disagreable amount of leading...as Lee predicted....I tried beeswax. After loading the already lubed leads, I disrespectfully greased the heck out of the exposed parts, especially the very front lube groove, which I filled with wax, I launched them downfield with 8-10 grains of Unique. The leadheads measured 0.370 with the beeswax in place.
But I lie. I myself did not launch them, but had my over-sized 11-year old work them into the target. Very fine work with the peep sight.
The 10-grain load flew downrange 1634 fps, faster than I would have liked. These my son knocked into a 3-inch group at fifty yards. Ditto the 9-grain load, but with a different point of impact. I measured neither the 9- or 8-grain load velocities. We did six shots of each load, beginning with the 10-grainer, then nine, then eight.
Now the 8-grainer sailed into a twenty meter target with 5 of 6 shots inside 1 3/8 inches center to center. And spot on the bull. One flier (ah heck, he's 11). We took the trouble to point the muzzle sky-ward and tap a couple times in order to settle the powder back against the primer before triggering. I did not let him try without exercising such measures. By the way, he shoots the 9.3 better than his .22, which has a peep mounted on the barrel groove instead of back on the receiver.
What you want to know, of course, is how bad the leading was. Well, the WAXING was pretty severe and required a bit of brush work with alcohol, but it came out fine.

I had almost no leading.

So, acceptable accuracy at twenty paces with a peep sight and the undersized lead, well-waxed, for grouse. This should itself wax a few Rocky Mountain Capercaillie this fall, and perhaps snowshoe or a nice turkey if that's not asking too much. But he's gotta take his "hunter's safety" course first. Of course.
Will this get you to try them out, Lee? Anyone else?

I have not gotten the 9x18 Mak bullets yet.

Kwahe


Ordtech
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
150 Posts
Posted - 08/14/2007 : 12:48:14 AM
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Kwahe,
That "waxing" is what I do with liquid Alox. Smells like crayons and is messy when I mix them up in a ziplock bag. The really messy part is stand on end on paper to dry. I use long mechanics tweezers. The dried Alox also gums up the seating and crimping dies pretty quick, but what's a little cleaning now and then? 44 Mag lever gun used to lead up fast, not so with the Alox "waxing". Never see leading in pistols using the liquid Alox either. Glad the 200s bumped up and gave you accuracy, but I'm not going to the Huntington 200's when I have a few thousand 158/160 gr. .358/.360" sitting around.
Packrat,
I still plan to get to the paper patch .358"s when this det is over in a couple of weeks. Trail Boss should work in the 9 - 13 grains neighborhood. Two layers of cotton onion skin should just about be 368. A little Alox on the bottoms to seat them without tearing. Just have to be home to do it!
By the way LeeSpeed; The .366 M-die wasn't any bigger than the Hormady neck expander. The second step belled it too much (like a tuba). So I may turn the second step down a bit at a smooth transition to get a more gradual bell. A universal neck expander may be better.
Dennis


LeeSpeed
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1024 Posts
Posted - 08/14/2007 : 09:09:04 AM
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Kwahe & Ordetech:

Two great posts!!

Kwahe: What does your rifle slug? Your method sounds interesting. The whole affair sounds much like what I did with my son and the .45-70. There I used cast Lyman 454190 bullets {for the .45 Colt measuring .454} in my .459 rifle. I used Ordtech's method of building up with liquid Alox. It worked for 25 yard shooting. It was like shooting a .45 Colt in a 7.5 pound rifle. The key was NOT to shoot too many. I think we'd shoot about 10 per session, no more, or the leading started. {Actually, I think the lube buildup caused a mechanical block and scraped lube off the bullets/knocked them sideways and caused yaw inside the barrel?}.

But I'd forgotten that for grouse. I mean, as you say, checking zero with the rifle and then carrying a handful of your 9.3 cast bullets would seem like it would work well. Brilliant idea, Kwahe!!!

Ordtech: Like Crayons, yes! I couldn't place it. Maybe some subliminal olfactory message of playtime in Kindergarten draws {no pun intended} me to Lee Liquid Alox, too.

When I messed around with paper patching I used White Lithium Grease, applied to the bullets with my fingers. I rubbed it in to the bullets quite well and had very good results with it. No tearing and it didn't seem to "waterlog" or loosen the paper.

I really look forward to reading your paper-patching experiences.

Now, a safety question:

Theoretically let's assume 5 rounds are fired from the 9.3x57 at grouse in a morning. This number might allow a substantial buildup of beeswax, Liquid Alox {dries hard in the cold} or whatever "Excessive Buildup" concoction is applied.

Then, in the afternoon, a shot at a bull elk presents itself.

Are we going to see excessive pressures if the lube is left in the barrel/not cleaned out and full power jacketed round fired on top of it?

I think that might occur. What do you guys think?

I'm concerned about that cold hard lube built up in the leade, around the case neck, etc.

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For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Jn 3:16 Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum.

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Edited by - LeeSpeed on 08/14/2007 09:14:18 AM


Kwahe
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
128 Posts
Posted - 08/14/2007 : 8:16:03 PM
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Friends......
Lee, you're right on the $$ with concerns regarding pressures and, heck, why not accuracy? With all that wax or Alox in there, hard or no, what happens to the real meat getter slug? Will it hit where ye want it to? That is something to work on further.
Ye know, I have not slugged my barrel. I know one of yours runs 0.369 in the grooves, right? Perhaps I better slug mine, as you have advised before.
Anyway, I'm glad to have shot up those 200's so I don't have to think about what to do with them any more. And no, I don't think I'll get any more, either. I'm looking forward to seeing how the Makarovs work.
Dieter talked about a round ball of a size compatible with the Huskies. That'd be 0.367-9, correct? That'd be the true document for grouse, for sure. But where, or where could we find them?
Meanwhile, the paper-patched 0.358s will need to be tried........
Kwahe
 

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I'm going to jump start the interest in this idea. Could a round ball be bumped up in a Lee cast bullet sizing press from about 360 to 366 or 367? I don't remember the RB mould sizes very well. Packy
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
grouse...

You cannot "bump up" a bullet in a Lee die. The die sizes down by the act of forcing a bullet through it. I see no reason why a larger diameter pure lead round ball bullet {.e.g. .375"} couldn't be forced through a Lee die. With some care in positioning when loading, I think the idea would work. However, the bullet might cause some leading depending on bore/groove/bullet diameters and velocity.

Match the bullet to the groove and keep it running slow and I think it would work. However, you will have to be very careful about handling the loaded cartridges as the bullet will have a tendency to shift about in the case neck. That COULD be disastrous I think if the bullet fell below the shoulder into the powder space or thereabouts.
 
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