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Discussion Starter #1
It was my idea first ! Mine...! ;) :p :D

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Scotty
Posted - 01/25/2006 : 07:47:33 AM
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Would 8x59 breda work in a 98 mauser action...?Its a bit fater so i was wondering about the magazine...



2520wcf
Posted - 01/25/2006 : 09:20:38 AM
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If you mean an unaltered 8x57 Mauser, DON'T. A loose one MIGHT chamber it and you'll have some serious pressure problems. I can't remember if the Breda has the same case head/body dimensions as the 8x57, but it's longer (duh!) and loaded to function a heavy machinegun, so probably generally hotter.

If you mean could it be made to work in an 8mm Breda-chambered 98 action, I suspect it could, since just about every round from .22-250 to .505 has been adapted to '98s. But why would you do that? First of all, you'd have to have a custom chamber reamer made, and that would just be the start of the expenses. If you can't stand the 8x57 for some reason, go to an 8x63 (fancy name for 8mm-06) or an 8x60 (you'd still need custom reamer and dies, but ammo would be easy).



Scotty
Posted - 01/25/2006 : 09:50:47 AM
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The dont think the breda will fit in a 8x57 chamber. I like the 8x57 but i just would like something different is all and i have a few 98 actions laying around...



Andy_P
Posted - 01/25/2006 : 1:26:11 PM
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Interesting question, as the 8x59 Breda round is rarely discussed. It is a "fatter" (I recall it is about 0.495" at the casehead vs. 0.470" for the 8x57) and longer round than the 8x57 round by 2mm (~0.080"). I have rechambered a Mauser to 8x63mm Swedish which is about as fat but longer and it worked fine from the magazine, so you pretty much just ream and go. I have a bunch of that ammo that I bought from Marstar www.marstar.ca

Of major concern though is the fact that the 8x59 Breda holds a bullet of ~0.326" in diameter, so your barrel is the challenge. Marstar has some old machinegun barrels, so it is in the realm of possibility if you just must have one.



DocAV
Posted - 01/25/2006 : 8:00:23 PM
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The 8x59 Breda M35 cartridge is a Rebated Rim, Bottle necked case. Rim dia. .470, Body(head diameter) .490, Case length 59mm and Bullet diameter .326-8. Case materials Brass and Steel. Primer .217 Berdan, crimped and case head has full circle channel similar to 6,5 Carcano case.

Several buyers of M37 Breda Guns did buy them in 7,9x57 (Spain, Portugal, Germany) or converted 8x59 calibre ones to 7,9mm.
The Spanish made their own under Licence in 7,9mm from about 1942 onwards.
Italy made ammo for this calibre from 1935 (for the Fiat Revelli M14/35 belt-fed rebuild, M37 ground tray-fed Gun, M38 magazine-fed Tank Gun) up till the early 1950s. Ammo was still used for training Purposes (overhead Fire) until the 1970s.

The Breda cartridge filled a similar Niche to the Japanese Type 89/92 MG cartridge, the M30 Austian 31M Hungarian, the US M1, and the German sS and the Argentine 7,65 SS heavy ball cartridges...Long range, high energy MG rounds; all derived from the early french and Swiss pre-WW I experimentations with effective MG cartridges.

The smarter nations (Germany, France, USA, Argentina, Austria/Hungary) made the heavy ball MG cartridge a "Universal" ammo for use in both Rifle and MG of all types; The more conservative nations (Italy, Japan, etc). did not make the quantum leap to a larger or heavier cartridge for Universal use...except the Japanese, in part with their Type 99 Rifle and LMG cartridge, derived from the Type 92 MG cartridge, but the double issue of both 6,5 and 7,7 ammo was still a nightmare. The Italians, of course, continued the 6,5 Rifle and 8x59 MG dichotomy to the bitter end, even though some experimental work was done in 1943-44 on a Self Loading Rifle in calibre 8x59,(example in Beretta Museum) But the design was (a) outdated and (b) fragile. And anyway, far too late.



Scotty
Posted - 01/26/2006 : 01:07:34 AM
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I can get a reamer and the dies,so i was thinking that it would be better just to ream out a 8mm mauser barrel so it is .323 ...and i think the brass can be made from 300 win. mag.



DocAV
Posted - 01/26/2006 : 6:09:07 PM
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Using .300 Win Mag is a hard way of doing it, as the magnum case has a .513 Body diameter, and a .520-.530 Belt and Rim diameter, All quite a lot of metal to Turn and Swage off a case (Head from .513 to .490 or so, and Rim from .530 to .470, including turning off the belt completely and cutting a new extractor groove. Also, the belt and rim will have to be turned off forst, to allow swaging the head don, then the final rim and groove cut after head waging (or re-drawing, which would be easier on the case).

The only other case close enough would be the .45/90 or .45/100 brass, and even here, turning off the rim and cutting new rim and extactor groove, and forming down ( several forming dies from .45 to .330 necks, before finnal sizing.).

Depends on howmany rounds you want to have for regular shooting.

My take would be to head-sleeve .30/06 cases with K&S Thin walled Brass Tubing ( Look up K&S Brass, Chicago Ill.). K&S is a big supplier of thin brass tubing to the Musical Instrument, Aircraft Hobby and Model Railroad Hobby areas.
Follow Nonte's "Home Guide to Cartridge Conversions" (1967-Stackpole)
on sleeving technique.
I have used this technique to make "Dummies" and once finished, on specs they are ID to original cartridges. (ie, will chamber and extract from Breda and Fiat MGs).

Regards, Doc AV
AV Ballistics



okrana
Posted - 01/26/2006 : 7:59:25 PM
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Doc AV: You mention the Spanish made the Breda M37 under license from 42-on(if I understood correctly!)I have never known of a Spanish-made Breda.Was it made at Oviedo?The Alfa, of course, was made in both 8mm and 762x51.



DocAV
Posted - 01/26/2006 : 11:49:05 PM
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As I understand it, from old editions of Smith & Smith, "Small Arms of the World", Spain manufactured a LMG, similar to the Czech ZB series, called the FAO (after Fabrica Armas Oviedo) and also a FAO version of the Breda M37; No further detail exists as to whether it was Tray fed or belt fed...the Spanish Army already had long experience with Tray fed guns, having used Hotchkiss Designs since before WW I, in 7mm, right through to the end of the SCW.

As none of these has ever surfaced through the usual Importers of such surplus items over the last 60 years, one suspects they may have been a very limited production, or even prototypes...SAOTW sometimes shows photos of prototypes as if they were large production, regular issue items.

regards, Doc AV
AV Ballistics



okrana
Posted - 01/28/2006 : 10:18:02 AM
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The FAO ZB26/30 type weapons I have examined were almost 100% faithful copies of the Czech original with certain small changes.Nicely made.The ALFAs,which are belt fed and bear a resemblance on the exterior to the Breda 37, are belt fed,both in the 1944 model (7,92) and the 1955 model (7,62x51).
Have never heard of or seen a Spanish made Breda 37 copy either in military circumstances or collectors hands.
 

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Discussion Starter #2
From a parallel thread in the machinegun forum

Andy_P
Gunboards Premium Member
Canada
140 Posts
Posted - 03/12/2004 : 6:58:08 PM
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I have seen anywhere from .322 to .326 listed, but .323 is the most common.
What is it? Or were there mutliple sizes used?
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www.8mmARPWildcat.pridham.ca
www.8x63swedish.pridham.ca



WLD Bill
Moderator - Tech Advisor Tennessee Guns
2895 Posts
Posted - 03/14/2004 : 10:00:19 AM
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Andy,Bullet dia. is 8.29m/m neck dia.is 9.09m/m total length is 80.3 m/m.
Hope this is help to you.If you are looking for ammo e-mail me.
Bill



Military Gun Supply
Sponsor Gunboards.Com
USA
481 Posts
Posted - 04/08/2004 : 4:13:29 PM
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In case anybody cares we have this ammo in stock for $14.95 per 50 round box.
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Gunboards Sponsor. Call (817) 457-6000 or email [email protected]
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Yet another one...

From the old Cartridge-Ordnance Collectors' Board:
Picture posted by Andy_P:

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/Andy_P/200552114151_Ammo Box.JPG



DocAV
Posted - 05/22/2005 : 10:08:15 AM
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M35 Cartridge for Machine Guns, made by SMI, Campo Tizzoro, Lot 82/2, 1943.
Loaded with Nitrocellulose
Red Overstamp " Cases Steel".

Fist developed in the early 1930s, by Breda, in conjuction with FIAT, for the 1935 conversion of the 1914 Revelli Watercooled Gun (in 6,5mm) to an Aircooled, Belt fed Gun. Belt links are unique, in that they interlock even without cartridge cases in them.
The M35 FIAT gun had all the defects of the earlier Revelli in that it was liable to "cook off" when hot, and the return buffer was exposed, so that it became known as the "Knuckle Buster" if it cooked off when one was trying to clear the gun. Its only saving grace was the belt feed ( ammo was kept in spools of 250 rounds
-- a bit like the 08/15 of WW I0.--and the belts were re-fillable from packaged ammo).
Then Breda went and ruined it all by developing the M37 gas operated gun (the M35 was a delayed opening, labile Bolt, recoil operated gun)
But with a 20 round TRAY, and a mechanism for "re-inserting" the spent brass back into the tray; they further compounded the problem, by also making a Tank version (M38) with a 20 round Box mag...A badly underfed large MG if ever there was one. Only the Spanish did anything with the design, developing the FAO (Oviedo) MG in the mid- 1940s (42, I think) which was simply a 7,9mm Breda with a Belt feed.

The cartridge itself went through several design changes, firstly being almost a copy of the Swiss M11 cartridge, but with the Austrian "S" (207grain", .329 projectile): It was IDed as the 8x55 Breda (no date,); Then the need for greater Powder capacity, and the possibility of conversion of "German" style guns for it led to the use of the rebated Rim (Body .490, Rim .470). The case was lengthened to 59mm, and the projectile diameter was stabilised around .324-326. This was the M35 cartridge.
Aside from the M35, the M37/38 Guns, the only other use was an experimental Semi-Auto rifle made in 1942-43 (one example in Beretta Museum)in this calibre.
The Germans took delivery of many Breda guns in 1944 in 7,9mm ( simple barrel change or chamber cutting operation.).

Italy continued using available Breda guns (and Ammo) until the mid 1960s for training.
India (with the large quantities of Captured Guns from Africa) also made 8x59RB ammo during WW II, also for training and POW Guard purposes. See Labett's "Cartridge Notes" for packet labels (Guns Review, a UK Publication now defunct, due to "gun laws").

An interesting but undervalued cartridge.Power range alongside the 7,9x57, the Norwegian 7,9x61, and the Swedish 8x63 MG cartridges.

Regards, Doc AV
AV Ballistics.



Andy_P
Canada
Posted - 05/22/2005 : 2:05:04 PM
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Wow, thanks to all for a VERY thorough treatise on this cartridge. I know the 8x63mm Swedish very well (see my website).

As for the 8x59mm Breda, I'll keep a few for interest's sake and perhaps pull some bullets to use in my Berthiers which slug out to 0.326.

www.8mmARPWildcat.pridham.ca

www.8x63swedish.pridham.ca
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Another ammo box picture

Radom1935
Posted - 11/02/2006 : 2:13:38 PM
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A store in Gettysburg PA has this ammo for Sale at $15 per box. It's in a gift and collectibles shop on US 30 a block east of Lincoln Square.

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/radom1935/2006112141312_gettysgurg 2006 Italian Ammo.jpg
Download Attachment:
109.03 KB



Radom1935
Posted - 11/03/2006 : 7:00:42 PM
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A reply to my posting on the ammo says this is not 8mm Mauser ammo.

""This can be found in Natchez Shooter's supply for around $6 a box, last time I ordered 10- boxes they said they had about 75 boxes left. This IS NOT 8MM MAUSER, it's 8mm breda, machine gun ammo only. It is neat to have however and there were very many different types. My favorite is a steel cartridge that is black colored.
BARQS19""



DocAV
Posted - 11/05/2006 : 8:12:59 PM
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Correct, Breda M1935 8x59RB ammo is NOT for "8mm" (Actually 7,9mm) Mausers....The Breda cartridge is MG only (although the Italians did develop a prototype Semi-Auto rifle for it in 1942).

And its dimensions ( .470 Rim, .490 base, 59mm case length, make it TOO BIG to enter a Mauser 7,9 chamber.

Great collectible packets; strange though, that they packed them in 50s, when the Breda M37 Gun strips were 20 rounds, but the M38 Tank Gun used a Box magazine, and the M35 Fiat Revelli was belt fed, so I suppose a 50 round box would be "all things to all guns".

Regards, Doc AV
AV Ballistics.

BTW, Italy did also make 7,9mm steel cased ammo in 44-45, for the Germans--if ever found, it will have German letter codes of the period.
 
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