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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Received this morning from the tech dept at Norma. Took a couple weeks for them to get back with this but it was worth it.

To recap-- There was recently data published in Shotgun News for 8x58RD that I thought was frighteningly excessive for the rolling block. This load data below confirms that fear. The tech dept said that this data is 20-30 years old and that 203 was faster now than back then, but the important part of this data is the velocities and chamber pressures in PSI & BAR (atmospheres).

The highest pressure is 28,660 psi.

Cartridges of the World cites much higher velocities for this cartridge and cites incorrect velocities for Norma factory loading in both 159gr bullet and 198gr bullet. This COTW data is what the person in Shotgun News based his beginning load data on and he went further, higher. I fear we're going to hear of blown up rifles and injuries from the erroneous load data.

What I need from Petter and Galen and others is your opinion on all this. The Shotgun News data exceeds .30-06 velocities and I'm thinking it'll also exceed safe pressure levels, it will certainly exceed safe levels for the rolling block. They may well approach and exceed PROOF pressures for 8x58RD in the Swedish 67-89 rolling block.

Old Norma load book data-
http://www.rebooty.com/~dutchman/images/8x58RD-1.pdf

CIP drawing for 8x58RD maximum cartridge, minimum chamber-
http://www.rebooty.com/~dutchman/images/8x58RDCIPdrawing.pdf

Need this translated. Its a ladeboken (load book?)- Yes, I can read what this is. Its more modern load data specificially for the rolling block using the 196gr bullet. And the velocities are LOW compared with the Shotgun News article.
2244 fps is the highest velocity out of a rolling block. Petter - I don't want to make any mistakes with this data so could you translate all the words in the box on the left?
http://www.rebooty.com/~dutchman/images/8x58RDladeboken.pdf

On the CIP drawing the maximum pressure in BAR is 3200.
3200 BAR at sea level is 46,412 psi. That's a lot of psi to think about putting in the rolling block. Norma's loads are around 1950 BAR (28282 psi at sea level).

Thanks for the help. I need to write a note to Shotgun News and the author of that article and I want my ducks in a row before I do. I may also do a write up on this cartridge and its loading application in the rolling block.

Dutchman
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 · (Edited)
Shotgun News published load data 8x58RD

These are some examples of the load data published in Vol 61 Issue 24 of Shotgun News:

~DO NOT USE THIS DATA~


XX grs IMR4895 170gr Hornady @ 2873 fps (MAX)
XX grs IMR4895 175gr Sierra @ 2742 fps
XX grs IMR4895 185gr Rem @ 2748 fps
XX grs IMR4895 200 gr Sierra @ 2604 fps



Dutchman
 

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I mis-read the pressure on the CIP drawing.
It says 3200 BAR is the MAXIMUM, not the proof pressure.
This is *not* a CIP drawing, but Triebel's private assessment, now also available via his PA.ULA CD. The 8x58RD is not CIP homologized, to the best of my knowledge, but it is normalized e.g. by German national law (which itself relies on Triebel's list in many cases, to complement the limited number of CIP cartridges).

Furthermore, this is 3200 bar copper crusher pressure; present piezo quartz values would be significantly higher, I guess. Triebel was blissfully unaware of the existence of Norma data and of the Swedish rolling blocks when he invented his pressure guess (for nothing more these data are).

Carcano
 

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Well done - Solid data to work with. I've believed the COTW load data was way too hot for rolling blocks and probably too hot for Danish Krag-Jørgensen rifles. Also, the load data from the old Handloader magazine issue seems to be used a lot in articles and it too is way too much for a roller to handle.

A BAR = 14.5038 pounds per square inch

I've contacted Hornady to see if they would be interested in developing some reliable loading data for the different 8x58RD chambered rifles that is based on known pressures and that will be safe for rollers and K-J rifles. I've offered the use of my 8x58RD chambered rifles to help develop those loads so there would be three different actions to work with; rollers, K-J, and Schultz & Larsen Model 38. We will see what comes of that if they want to pursue it farther than just responding with "an interesting idea" email.

I absolutely agree - there is a tragedy in the making if people are loading rolling blocks with some of the high pressure loads that are published in the popular literature and the word needs to get out that these loads could be dangerous.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
This is *not* a CIP drawing, but Triebel's private assessment, now also available via his PA.ULA CD. The 8x58RD is not CIP homologized, to the best of my knowledge, but it is normalized e.g. by German national law (which itself relies on Triebel's list in many cases, to complement the limited number of CIP cartridges).

Furthermore, this is 3200 bar copper crusher pressure; present piezo quartz values would be significantly higher, I guess. Triebel was blissfully unaware of the existence of Norma data and of the Swedish rolling blocks when he invented his pressure guess (for nothing more these data are).
Carcano
Understood, not CIP. I neglected to scroll all the way down and I see from the email from Norma tech dept that he used the term, CIP.

I need explicit and detailed information. What's happening in Germany with cartridge drawings and pressure testing is way too far from northern California for me to fill in the empty spaces.

The focus of what I'm trying to do is gather intell to counteract the excessive load data published in Shotgun News specifically loaded for 67-89 rolling blocks.

Dutchman
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Also, the load data from the old Handloader magazine issue seems to be used a lot in articles and it too is way too much for a roller to handle.
Are you saying the 28,660 psi in the Norma load data is excessive for the 67-89 rolling block?

If that's the case then these Shotgun News loads are mondo beyondo proof pressures.

The 1867 frame is iron, correct? Not steel.
Even re-case hardened IRON frame rolling block is like a grenade.
It has no grain stucture like a steel forging.

The 1873 Springfield is generally loaded to levels not exceeding 18,000 to 22,000 psi according to NRA Handloaders Guide 1968 edition. The Springfield and the 1867 rolling block are comtemporary though different breech locking.

Dutchman
 

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Actually, what I'm saying is that we don't know if the 28,660 psi is excessive in the m/67-89 rollers. I've developed my loads with the goal of keeping things around 22,000-24,000 psi, BUT, and a big BUT, these are extrapolations I have made from published reloading data that has stated measured pressure limits, for cartridges of similar design and powder capacity. So, really we have no firm ground to stand on when it comes to determining operating pressures and proof pressures. We really really need some historical research from Sweden on what pressures the m/67-89 rifles were intended to operate at and what they were proofed at. And, like the trapdoor Springfields, what pressures can 130 year old rifles (given that they were re-worked after 1889) be safely operated at today.
 

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Need this translated. Its a ladeboken (load book?)- Yes, I can read what this is. Its more modern load data specificially for the rolling block using the 196gr bullet. And the velocities are LOW compared with the Shotgun News article.
2244 fps is the highest velocity out of a rolling block. Petter - I don't want to make any mistakes with this data so could you translate all the words in the box on the left?
http://www.rebooty.com/~dutchman/images/8x58RDladeboken.pdf
This (the Norwegian Vapenjournalens Ladebok) is indeed one of the best reloading books worldwide. On the same level with the blue RUAG (DNAG; RWS) book, the Malfatti and the "Any Shot you want". No reloader should be without those.

And the authors employ sound basic methodology: they have chronographed two factory loads and keep the reload's velocity below.

Carcano
 

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Would it be possible for you to scan the article and post it here, or send it to me directly?
I'd be interested in reading the whole thing.

The box reads, from top;
Test weapon; Carl Gustaf Remington Rolling Block 1872/93 (m/1867-89 converted in 1893. Obviously a military rifle, but no further clues to whether sporterized or original. Barrel length suggests the latter.)
Barrel length - 85 cm / 33"
Rifling twist - 1-9 1/2" / 1- 241 mm
Rifling dia. - .323" / 8,20 mm
Case - Bertram
Primer - Remington 9 1/2
Maximum case length - 58,0 mm
Trim-to length - 57,8 mm
Factory ammunition chronographed in test weapon - Norma 12,7 g Alaska 2234 fps / 681 ms - Norma manufactured M1908 Spidsskarp (D Mantel type bullet) 12,7 g 2283 fps / 696 ms

Bracketed comments by the translator. :) Delete as necessary.

As Carcano points out, Ladeboken is edited by three Norwegian gun writers that all appear to be sound of mind, and the book is generally considered as being trustworthy and well researched.

Pettson
 

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I too would like to see the entire 8X58RD material from Norska Ladeboken posted in this thread, in a form that can be downloaded. Alt, send it to me in an attachment.

Is Great to see this and Norma load data being made available!!

Thanks,
Niklas
 

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Me, I was referring to the SGN article(s).

I can procure the short 8x58RD article in Ladeboken. My scanner is acting up a bit again, but will do it as soon the problem is solved.

Pettson
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
We really really need some historical research from Sweden on what pressures the m/67-89 rifles were intended to operate at and what they were proofed at.
I did ask that in my email to Norma. What I received is all they provided. The PDF links in the first note in this thread is that material.

The Ladeboke page is all that was sent, nothing more. At the least it gives those two factory load velocities with which to compare. Those two velocities refute the data in Cartridges of the World.

we don't know if the 28,660 psi is excessive in the m/67-89 rollers.
I'm going to speculate outloud for a minute. Thinking about the upper pressures that have been warned of for the 1873 Springfield or around 22,000 psi. I'll do some more reading later tonight and see if that number is higher in other data.

The 28,660 psi of the data in the Norma load data may not be out of line. Using only velocity and bullet weight to compare, the old Norma data and the Ladeboke data have comparable velocity with the same weight bullet, 196 grain (12,7gram). This may lead one to conclude, hopefully correctly, that chamber pressures may be close. That's not too overly imaginative to think that, though different powders produce different pressures. I have to think, hopefully correctly, that the old Norma data was conducted with the knowledge that so many of the 1889 rolling blocks existed in Sweden and that data would be used to load ammo for them. I'm putting great faith in the people of Norma with that intellectual extropolation. I'm thinking that faith may be well placed.

Dutchman
 

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Clever me. I just figured I might as well type in a quick translation of what's written about the cartridge in Ladeboken, 6th edition. Don't need no stinkin' scanner!

You'll have to trust me on the translation though. I'll add the original text
Here goes...

- - -

8x58RD

The Danish military cartridge of 1889 is not a common sight today. The Danish Krag Jörgensen rifle is rarely used today, but the cartridge was chambered also in Danish, Swedish and Norwegian Remington rolling block rifles, and these are stumbled upon fairly regularly. Some people like to shoot these old rifles, so therefore we have included loading data for it.

Originally the cartridge was loaded with a compressed black powder charge, awaiting the final development of the smokeless powders. The first military cartridge had a 14,7 g roundnose bullet, loaded to a V0 of about 485 m/s. Ín later smokeless loads the velocity was increased to 620 m/s using the same bullet.

In 1908 the Danes went over to the so called "spidsskarp", a cartridge loaded with a 12,7 g spitzer bullet where the velocity was a claimed 750 m/s. The experience with this cartridge was, however, that it was to powerful for the rolling block rifles, and a reduced charge load using the dame bullet was developed for these rifles.

Until the 1960's, Norma made a factory load load in 8x58RD using a 12,7 g soft point and a claimed velocity of 680 m/s, with respect due to the many rolling block rifles being used for hunting in Sweden. Norma also made a batch of M1908 spidsskarp for Denmark, using these same figures.

The loads presented here are being held to the same levels, and can be used in both Krag-Jörgensen and rolling block rifles. Original cases uses berdan primers, but new boxer primed cases are available from Bertram. Loading dies are available from RCBS.

- - -

And here's some information on the early military cartridges, taken from the standard work that every Swede collector starts out with, "Arméns eldhandvapen förr och nu" by Josef Alm.

"The m/1889 cartridges were loaded with 4,7 g compressed black powder and a 30,7 g copper jacketed bullet with a diameter of 8,25 mm. V0 was 535 m/s. In 1892 it was replaced with smokeless powder and a cupronickel jacketed bullet with a V0 of 630 m/s."

Pettson
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Clever me. I just figured I might as well type in a quick translation of what's written about the cartridge in Ladeboken, 6th edition. Don't need no stinkin' scanner!

You'll have to trust me on the translation though. I'll add the original text
Here goes...

- - -

8x58RD

The Danish military cartridge of 1889 is not a common sight today. The Danish Krag Jörgensen rifle is rarely used today, but the cartridge was chambered also in Danish, Swedish and Norwegian Remington rolling block rifles, and these are stumbled upon fairly regularly. Some people like to shoot these old rifles, so therefore we have included loading data for it.

Originally the cartridge was loaded with a compressed black powder charge, awaiting the final development of the smokeless powders. The first military cartridge had a 14,7 g roundnose bullet, loaded to a V0 of about 485 m/s. Ín later smokeless loads the velocity was increased to 620 m/s using the same bullet.

In 1908 the Danes went over to the so called "spidsskarp", a cartridge loaded with a 12,7 g spitzer bullet where the velocity was a claimed 750 m/s. The experience with this cartridge was, however, that it was to powerful for the rolling block rifles, and a reduced charge load using the dame bullet was developed for these rifles.

Until the 1960's, Norma made a factory load load in 8x58RD using a 12,7 g soft point and a claimed velocity of 680 m/s, with respect due to the many rolling block rifles being used for hunting in Sweden. Norma also made a batch of M1908 spidsskarp for Denmark, using these same figures.

The loads presented here are being held to the same levels, and can be used in both Krag-Jörgensen and rolling block rifles. Original cases uses berdan primers, but new boxer primed cases are available from Bertram. Loading dies are available from RCBS.

- - -
Pettson
You are beyond clever, my friend:) This is most excellent information and parallels what I just surmised in the note before. Not that we can equate velocity and bullet weight exactly with chamber pressure, but we may speculate that there is some similarity. It may be all we have to go on for the time being. I did learn what "spids" meant today.

I do have 20 rds of that Norma m/89 ammunition. I've not ever fired it. Got it from Hans.

Dutchman
 

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Excellent work gentlemen! There are more and more Swedish rolling block rifles chambered in this cartridge arriving in the US so it is important that we have safe, useable loading data ready for the questions we will be sure to receive. There are a bunch of both original military and sporterized rollers chambered in 8x58RD sitting in the racks at Simpson Ltd just waiting for a new home.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Excellent work gentlemen! There are more and more Swedish rolling block rifles chambered in this cartridge arriving in the US so it is important that we have safe, useable loading data ready for the questions we will be sure to receive. There are a bunch of both original military and sporterized rollers chambered in 8x58RD sitting in the racks at Simpson Ltd just waiting for a new home.
I hope, Steve, that you're as vigilent as I'm trying to be on this issue, that we build a concensus as to what is and is not a prudent load level for the 1889 rolling block. I know nothing of the strengths or weaknesses of the various Krag rifles, though I do appreciate and depend on Galen's great depth in that area. I feel this is worthy of a campaign, a concerted effort and what prompted this was a feeling of urgency when I saw those figures published in Shotgun News.

Dutchman
 

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I for one am very glad to see those data. I have sent link to this thread to some friends that, like me, recently bought Carl Gustav Rolling Blocks in 8X58RD. Am also sticking these informations in front of some folks that were taken by the COTW data -- don't know at this point if they have seen Shotgun News data.

I may never need 8X58RD hunting load for elk or moose, but, now I feel confident I can arrive at nice one, say 200-220 grain soft point at 2200 fps. Should do even better than my "standard" load, 7mm, 175 grain Nosler at about 2400 fps out of 7X57.

Niklas
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 · (Edited)
Norwegian Vapenjournalens Ladeboken

http://www.rebooty.com/~dutchman/images/8x58RDladeboken.pdf

Test weapon; Carl Gustaf Remington Rolling Block 1872/93
(m/1867-89 converted in 1893. Obviously a military rifle, but no further
clues to whether sporterized or original. Barrel length suggests the latter.)
Barrel length - 85 cm / 33"
Rifling twist - 1-9 1/2" / 1- 241 mm
Rifling dia. - .323" / 8,20 mm
Case - Bertram
Primer - Remington 9 1/2
Maximum case length - 58,0 mm
Trim-to length - 57,8 mm
Factory ammunition chronographed in test weapon -
--Norma 12,7 g Alaska 2234 fps / 681 ms -
--Norma manufactured M1908 Spidsskarp (spitzer)
(D Mantel type bullet) 12,7 g 2283 fps / 696 ms

(Bracketed comments by the translator)

(preface from Ladeboken)
8x58RD

The Danish military cartridge of 1889 is not a common sight today. The
Danish Krag Jörgensen rifle is rarely used today, but the cartridge was
chambered also in Danish, Swedish and Norwegian Remington rolling block
rifles, and these are stumbled upon fairly regularly. Some people like to
shoot these old rifles, so therefore we have included loading data for it.

Originally the cartridge was loaded with a compressed black powder charge,
awaiting the final development of the smokeless powders. The first military
cartridge had a 14,7 g roundnose bullet, loaded to a V0 of about 485 m/s. Ín
later smokeless loads the velocity was increased to 620 m/s using the same
bullet.

In 1908 the Danes went over to the so called "spidsskarp", a cartridge
loaded with a 12,7 g spitzer bullet where the velocity was a claimed 750
m/s. The experience with this cartridge was, however, that it was to
powerful for the rolling block rifles, and a reduced charge load using the
dame bullet was developed for these rifles.

Until the 1960's, Norma made a factory load load in 8x58RD using a 12,7 g
soft point and a claimed velocity of 680 m/s, with respect due to the many
rolling block rifles being used for hunting in Sweden. Norma also made a
batch of M1908 spidsskarp for Denmark, using these same figures.

The loads presented here are being held to the same levels, and can be used
in both Krag-Jörgensen and rolling block rifles. Original cases uses berdan
primers, but new boxer primed cases are available from Bertram. Loading dies
are available from RCBS.

blackpowder military 226 grain @ 485 m/s = 1591 fps preface Ladeboken

smokeless military 226 grain @ 620 m/s = 2034 fps preface Ladeboken

196gr Norma m/89 @ 680 m/s = 2230 fps preface Ladeboken

196gr Norma Alaskan @ 681 m/s = 2234 fps preface Ladeboken

Norma 196 grain Spitzer M1908 @ 696 m/s = 2283 fps preface Ladeboken

Data per Ladeboken:
196 grain Norma softpoint @ 684 m/s = 2244 fps

Danish deemed too hot for rolling blocks (per Ladeboken)

Danish M1908 196grain spitzer = @ 750 m/s = 2460 fps preface Ladeboken

Advise errors - will correct
 
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