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Douglas I. Kerley
Posted - 01/17/2004 : 10:44:36 PM
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Hi; An old-old friend told me he was bringing in a bunch of Carcanos for me to the show. In the mix was 7 folding bayonet 8mm jobs. Kind of interesting. Reciever cut out for 8mm but no big "S", marked L.FRANCHI on top BRESIA below on rear of bottom tang, 7.9 marked, even I could see that three or four of the barrels had other serial numbers and makers under the current ones, 7-8K serial number range, nice bores but used outside, vibro-engraved serial number on the receiver, no import mark. What can I say? Ever seen any? Dick Hobbs says that there are some 5K of them around somewhere.

Two 8mm TSs that that the chamber was filled with weld.

One was bubbaed starting with a early Carcano Carbine with adjustible rear sight, Springfield C stock (full pistol grip) cut down and filled in with wood puddy and finished of with a US M1 carbine front sight. It had the springfield oiler in the but that was worth what I paid for the whole rifle. I bought it for parts but I kind of like it and will probably keep it to display with my T99 Arisaka stuck into a springfield stock and finished off with a T44 3rd series Japanese folding bayonet housing. Springcano, Arispring, the mind boggles. Doug



Carcano
Posted - 01/18/2004 : 05:27:31 AM
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Just like the Turkish Enfield Mausers...

As to the 8mm cavalry carbines, I had one reported, but they show up rarely. Definitely a post-war job. If you can collect serial numbers and data (especially concerning the shape and position of the front sight blade, and the bayonet locking mechanism - see Dick Hobbs' picture table), it would be great !



Douglas I. Kerley
Posted - 01/18/2004 : 05:48:23 AM
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HI; Usual push button late style bayonet lug with front sight mounted in a slot on the front of the bayonet base. I'll get the serial numbers off to you tomorrow. Post war huh? I'm sure that they had a mountain of them. Any idea when they finally gave up on them? Any idea as to numbers produced? Is this a factory job or some gunsmith way out there? There should be some post war documentation around somewhere. Looks like they must of rebored 6.5s. Might have a safty issue? I have a war time 8mm TS that the barrel has a larger OD. A standard bayonet will not go on it. Doug



Carcano
Posted - 01/19/2004 : 7:39:10 PM
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Very little to none reliable printed info. I think I have finally discovered a key to one of the Moschetto TS 38 "S" series, after having read Grap's article for the umpteenth time, and finally understanding it...

I would guess the cavalry carbines to be a post-war endeavour (L. Franchi also reworked some other guns in the 1950s, I believe), but it is more of a gut feeling.

For the safety issue, see the various long and rich threads on the Moschetto TS 38 "S".



Douglas I. Kerley
Posted - 01/20/2004 : 08:26:43 AM
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HI; Wouldn't there be records in a government arms export control agency in Rome? We are talking post war here. Couldn't of been that much going on under occupation to the early 50s. I heard from a guy here that got several vehicles from Israel that 8mm TS stocks (with the through bolts) were used as dunnage in the shipping. The Israelies needed 8mms for the '48 war bad. You want it bad. You get it bad. And the worse you want it. The worse you get it. Maybe some under the table deal. Is L. Franchi or some of his co-workers in Brescia still around? Might be worth looking into. Doug



Carcano
Posted - 01/20/2004 : 10:30:39 AM
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The Israeli connection is certainly worth an investigation. The Haganah and the early Israeli state scratched together whatever they could get. And some Moschetti TS 38 "S" indeed bear the zahal marking and the star of David. However, the majority of the 8mm carbines seem to have served in an Arab-language country, maybe Egypt. I do no know wbout the cavalry carbine version.

As to Italian archives, access is notoriously cumbersome and difficult with military archives there. Everything post-1945 is probably still classified. Maybe Major Dott. Aldebrano Micheli from the Terni arsenal (SMALT) could help; he is historically interested.



Carcano
Posted - 01/20/2004 : 5:40:20 PM
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Dale: I have looked at the AuctionArms carbine. The rear sight is marked 7.9, and the stock has no (!) recoil stock bolts. I don't know whether the cavalry carbines are authentic - as Doug and I have mused above -; I think Dick Hobbs was sceptical.

Doug: did "your" cavalry carbines have stock bolts ?



Rifleman
Posted - 01/20/2004 : 8:44:57 PM
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Carcano,

That one doesn't have the extra recoil bolt,but I saw one at a gunshow several times that does have it.It's in the wrist like it is on the M91/38's that have been converted to 8MM.The dealer has been bringing it the last three or four shows.If I remember correctly,he wants something like three or four hundred dollars for it.He will probably be at the next show in a couple of weeks,if he still has it and I remember,I'll get the info from it.I'll write it down and post it if you would like to have it.(the information that is)
Dale



Rifleman
Posted - 01/20/2004 : 8:49:10 PM
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Carcano,

Just to clarify,the one I'm talking about has two recoil bolts.I just wanted to make sure you understand what I saw.The other one was forward of the trigger guard.

Dale



Douglas I. Kerley
Posted - 01/21/2004 : 10:37:10 AM
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HI; Yes, they do have both bolts. Looks like several of them have "Used" 6.5 barrels that the octaganal chamber area has been ground or turned down to round and "freshened" out to 8x57mm. I wonder why they turned the flats down. I would think that once the flats are there they would be usefull in barrel changing and add some strength. Turning them off which adds a production step for no gain and some loss. My non-import 8mm TS has a barrel so fat you cann't stick most bayonets on it. Humm? Doug
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Edited by - Douglas I. Kerley on 03/01/2004 5:53:43 PM



Antonio
Posted - 03/01/2004 : 11:35:41 PM
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I have two 8mm cav carbines and they both have two recoil stock bolts. One of them has remnants of Arab writing painted on the stock. Both of them are unmarked with no "S" on bolt or receiver. One is import marked on the barrel "Italy Carcano" and the serial number is electro etched on the receiver. The other one is not import marked and the Serial number is only on the barrel. They both are in the 7000 serial number range only 75 numbers apart. They both have excessive head space and the bolts will close on the field guage. One is in 95% condition and the other looks like it was dragged behind a camel for a long time.



Bill Davis
Posted - 03/03/2004 : 12:06:17 AM
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Don't the older Springfield Sporters catalogs list these? I seem to remember (spits off the porch) them having 2 or 3 8MM variations. This would be late 70's-early 80's, and I think Century sold 'em for a while. Anyone got any old fliers to dig through? (Or am I having a "senior moment"? been havin' those since I was about 26...)



Frank
Posted - 03/03/2004 : 12:45:27 AM
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A couple of weeks ago there were 8MM barelled receivers for sale at $10 on one of the auction sites. The pics showed a big crate full of the ratty stripped barelled actions. Many of them were the folding bayonet version of one model or another. No bayos attached; just the front sight and attachment blocks. I cannot find the auction now. Well, maybe another opportunity missed.



Douglas I. Kerley
Posted - 03/03/2004 : 10:41:39 AM
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Originally posted by Antonio
I have two 8mm cav carbines and they both have two recoil stock bolts. One of them has remnants of Arab writing painted on the stock. Both of them are unmarked with no "S" on bolt or receiver. One is import marked on the barrel "Italy Carcano" and the serial number is electro etched on the receiver. The other one is not import marked and the Serial number is only on the barrel. They both are in the 7000 serial number range only 75 numbers apart. They both have excessive head space and the bolts will close on the field guage. One is in 95% condition and the other looks like it was dragged behind a camel for a long time.
HI; Pull them out of their stocks and see if they have the L Franchi and Bresia on the bottom rear flat of the receiver. Does the barrel chamber area look like it had been square and then turned round so you can still see a few of the previous markings on them? Is the barrel OD much smaller than the standard 8mm TSs out there? Then you got some like mine. But mine have no import stamp on them. Thanks Doug
 
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