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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
mag
Posted - 02/22/2006 : 01:30:37 AM
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I just finished setting up a 8mm TS carbine parts rifle for hunting. The idea was to have M-1 Garand power with M-1 Carbine weight. The main modifications were a handmade aluminium magazine housing that takes a removable plastic box magazine, aluminium sights, trimed and hollow wood stock and lightening holes where ever possible.
The carbine comes in right at 5 lbs. I am trying to get 2350 fps with a 180 or 200 grain bullet out of the 17 inch barrel.
I should get to test shoot it in a day or two. It should make a good brush/stalking gun for big boar. mag



dragonfly
Posted - 02/22/2006 : 6:25:46 PM
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Sounds like a manly rifle indeed. How did you fabricate the box magazine? What load did you end up with?



GJD
Posted - 02/22/2006 : 7:12:22 PM
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I bet your shoulder will enjoy the hunt! :)



Arditi
Posted - 02/22/2006 : 9:46:31 PM
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Your rifle or parts as you say...do whatever you want to it. It's yours.
Though, it's a shame that a rifle that was one of roughly 10,000 made had to fall to being sporterized. 9,999 more out there I guess. I once had one that someone stamped a fake fascist number, with hand held stamps, on it to make it more palatable for my purchasing tastes. So, correction, that makes 9,998 left out there to purchase.

Of course there are a number that did not survive whatever else befell them for a myriad of different reasons. As most of these appear to have come out of Egypt...how many are actually still in Italy or were dispensed with in Egypt through wear, loss, etc? Though I believe there appears to be a relatively high, survivable number of these currently. We don't know truly how many are still out there. Less than 9,998, though, for sure. Only my opinion, so enjoy your special rifle. Arditi
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Edited by - Arditi on 02/22/2006 10:10:20 PM



mag
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 12:35:26 AM
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I am enjoying it so much I may make a dozen more. mag



mag
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 12:41:49 AM
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Originally posted by dragonfly
Sounds like a manly rifle indeed. How did you fabricate the box magazine? What load did you end up with?
I used a Remington 710 mag, it is a staggered box that feeds from the middle, so it works great with a center feed Carcano.

The parts rifle was missing so many parts it was beyond fixing, I needed some of what was there for other good rifles and did not want to can the rest. That is why I made it light, I had to make many parts anyway. Now it will get some use instead of going in the trash. I am still working on loads. I make a special recoil pad that will tame about any recoil, so the felt recoil is not too bad, BUT the rifle does jump alot on firing. mag



Arditi
Posted - 02/26/2006 : 5:52:33 PM
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Had an interesting encounter with Mag at the range today. We both belong to the same rifle club (off and on) and shoot at the same range as well. I thought the issue pertaining to his bubba'd rifle was dead after we both gave our opinions, concerning his altering an 8mm TS carcano, on these boards. At the range today, he felt the need to try to rub my face (or save his own ego) in the fact he butchered a perfectly good 8mm TS. He accused me of "making up history" of how many of these rifles were actually made. I have no firm idea, but I do not believe that many were made. I challenge you to prove your assertions, without lying about your sources, that these 8mm carbines were rebored in the United States "BY IMPORTERS" and not in Italy or Egypt in 8mm... hence your bubbaing of a probable small production military rifle was ok because you believe they are non-collectable due to being non-military and rebored in the U.S...?
I gathered my information from Hobb's Carcano book. Mag says this information is incorrect and inferred that I fabricated history to make my argument. Based on what sources are you making your assertions? I challenge mag to come up with better sources rather than shoot his mouth off as I have seen him do on these boards, at lunch and at the range these many years not only concerning Carcani, but Imperial 88's and other military rifles... AND use information/statistics (not made up) and source without stealing from others musings and claiming it as your own ideas. Think you can do that mag? I am open to learning... teach me. Arditi
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Edited by - Arditi on 02/26/2006 6:07:51 PM



Ronin48
Posted - 02/26/2006 : 7:42:17 PM
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Arditi has a good point. Too much has been reported on various military rifles from "hear-say" with no facts to back up the "data." There are probably a few errors in Dick's book, there are in most, but if so let's discuss any errors on this Board and present the evidence that contradicts what is in print. That way we can correct our copies and not continue the errors. It's damn easy to critizise, much harder to write a book.

When Fred Honeycutt published "Military Rifles of Japan" I heard from several collectors, "He missed this, he missed that." But he covered 99% of what should have been covered. After 25+ years and five updates, it's still the "bible' for Japanese collectors. He must have done something right and as far as I know, The "Carcano" is still the 'bible' for Carcano collectors.

Back on "hear-say" ""FACTS,"" how about, "Italian rifles are junk, the rear of the bolt will blow back in your face to kill you!" or "The Jap. T-94 pistol was fabricated as a suicide weapon, the soldier walked forward holding the pistol, butt forward, as he surrendered and before reaching enemy force, muttered 'So solly,' and activited the sear with his finger." BULL S**T, but I've heard it over and over. (Why not put the pistol to your head/in your mouth, and pull the trigger?)

I don't mind ( I do, but I'm better for it) learning I'm wrong, but I want to see the reference. (and if you say it was Ian Skennerton, the 'expert' that said the Italian Brexia 45 mm "mortar" had a trigger, I'll again say say, BULL S**T).

As Jack Webb used to say "Just the facts mam, just the facts. (And I know you grasshoppers are scratching your long, greasy hair and saying, "Jack Webb, who the h*ll was he?)



mag
Posted - 02/27/2006 : 12:29:15 AM
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Well first we will cover the rifle in question:
If Arditi had read or understood the first posts, they state the rifle was missing the front sight, handguard, front band and had a ruined rear sight and was missing some magazine parts and someone had tried to recrown the pitted muzzle. Also I needed some of the remaining mag parts for another really nice rifle. So I saw no problem with using what was left to make a rifle that would shoot again. So nothing was lost.

Now here is some good information on shooting a 8mm Carcano learned from all of this. Half the people that do talk about the hard kick, and other problems that lead them to believe the carcano is not strong enough for 8x57mm. The other half seem to have no problems shooting theirs. There is a reason for this. After checking 10 different 8mm's I have found two different barrels on them.

The first is a rebore of a 6.5mm barrel, they have a .308 - .321 bore with a 1 in 16 twist with no freebore , that is 32 Win special specs. When you shoot a standard military 8x57 in one of these barrels alot of bad things happen. First when you chamber a round the bullet hits the rifling you do not really feel it as it happens as the bolt does it's last lock[ that really raises pressure ], then when you fire it the .323 dia bullet is held back by the .308 lands trying to be engraved by .015 extra [ this really raises pressure ] After firing the over pressured case is stuck in the chamber and it is extra hard to open the bolt, made worse by the bolt face being too small for the 8x57mm case rim,, the case does not want to turn in the chamber and the bolt face does not want to turn on the rim [ it will shave off rim brass ]. All this together makes for a 400 to 500 fps increase in velocity over what you should have. That is why they are having trouble shooting military .323 dia ammo. The barrels are set up to .32 Win specs, so to shoot these safely I would use .321 bullet for reloading or US 8mm ammo [ like Winchester ] which is loaded with a .321 Win special bullet [ that is why they are round nose ]. also the 1 in 16 twist is not good for bullets over 170 grains.

The other barrel found is a new made [ no Italian marks and a different bluing ] .312 - .323+ barrel with the standard 1 in 10ish 8x57 twist rate. That is why some people are not having bad pressure problems shooting these. I have not done alot of testing with this barrel yet, but I have not had any bad pressure signs in mine with any regular load. Now since unlike what Arditi seems to think, I do all my own testing and use all my own ideas, SO I will state that the idea of the importer reboring some of these was NOT my Idea. BUT everything that I have found seems to support his Idea. No military ever used a .308 - .321 barrel with a 1 in 16 twist with a chamber that is too short for the Ss 8x57mm round. The US specs for a 32 Win barrel are .308 - .321 [ the rifling was made that deep to allow the 32 win to be reloaded with blackpowder ]with a 1 in 16 twist . Also it was popular to rebore 30/30's to 32 Win in the US to restore the barrel. No military is going to make a rifle that will lock up the bolt from over pressure [ at best ] with service ammo. But these barrels are ok to use with US made ammo.

So you can see why I am leaning to the importer reboring these at this time. The rest of you can check your rifle's bores for size and make up your own mind. You now know what to look for so you can be careful when you shoot yours. Now for Doss's statement about firearm myths, I have shot 100's of rounds through about every miltary military rifle and pistol ever used. What I say is backed up by steel and results. I state the truth, I do not repeat the myths. As some of you may remember, I fought an uphill battle for a long time about the myth of the German .318 bore GEW-88, saying they were .321. Now that is taken as fact since everyone found their 88's do have a .321 barrel. There are alot of myths about these old military rifles and I do try and get the truth, I do not just memorize what ever I read somewhere. mag



Arditi
Posted - 02/27/2006 : 01:56:06 AM
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...portion erased by Arditi...

You are making a reach on the "importer theory" based on barrel specs on a small sample? You are going to need something a lot more concrete than that to throw out that line. You CANNOT tell the lineage or history of a rifle on barrel specs ALONE nor it's rarity as well.

...portion erased by Arditi...
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Edited by - Arditi on 02/28/2006 1:58:54 PM



dragonfly
Posted - 02/27/2006 : 06:49:23 AM
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I think Doc AV may be able to offer some solid info on these rifles.



NebrHogger
Posted - 02/27/2006 : 07:49:43 AM
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I don't buy the post-war rebuild statement. If these were done post-war, why is there mention of them in the WWII Italian supply documents stored at the National Archives? SW



mag
Posted - 02/27/2006 : 10:36:22 AM
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NH, the guy with the importer idea Never said they ALL were, just the ones we have looked at. I feel there is some merit to his idea by what I have seen so far. BUT the major point that I was trying to make was the different bore sizes and ammo to be used. There is a real danger with some ammo types in some of those barrels. Hopefully that point will make it through Arditi's rantings about what people should be doing with their own rifles, what condition rifles were in when they were bought by other people even though he had never even seen the rifle before. He seems to have some special power like that, it enables him to see what happens at our matches even though he does not even show up at them. Since he does not really know much about rifles, he needs to do off subject personal attacks, the the shooting club part. Most club members do not even know who he is as he does not shot. Most people around here just feel he is a minor irritain, do not really care what he thinks as they just look at the source.
But like I said , that part of this post should not block out the shooting part of this. Everyone that has an interest in shooting one of the 8mm's can slug their OWN bore and see for themselves what they have. mag



Arditi
Posted - 02/27/2006 : 11:47:30 AM
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... portion erased by Arditi...out of respect for the readers of this forum...

If data is to be accumulated and studied I recommend not using mag's from knowing mag intimately and how he is willing to smudge data and alter weapons to fit whatever argument/activity is important to him at that moment. Fair warning given.
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Edited by - Arditi on 02/28/2006 2:08:59 PM



Ronin48
Posted - 02/27/2006 : 8:09:20 PM
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Let me begain by saying I have met both of these gentleman, I know Arditi better than Mag, have done business with Arditi, stayed at his home and he mine. I met Mag at a TX shoot and made a brief visit to his home to view some of his iron. I'm not 'taking sides' in this other to make the following comments.

I find the report on the different barrel dias. extremely interesting. These are 'hard' data, measurements can be reproduced, data can be documented. No "guess-work" here.

Hopefully there will be an additional post on number of barrels measured, diameters, and barrel markings. I wonder if the barrel diameters differ between the two major barrel markings, the one with SN only and other with original Italian markings? Could indicate that work was done at "arsenals?" Same dias. with mixed receiver markings could suggest that 8mm conversions post-manuf.?

Where rebored, good question with three, perhaps four possibilities: (1) US by Importer, (2) Europe by Importer, (3) by a "broker" before rifles sold to importer, (4) 'Factory' original.

Considring (1) rifle shipped to US, usisng US labor, rifle stripped, disassembled, barrel bored and re-rifled, rifle reassembled and sold for $65, $70. (2) same as (1) except work done by cheaper (?) labor. (3) same as (2). (4) self explanitory.

Which is correct, if any? Would think US sellers would have some info. But whatever the case, without hard data, is it not better to give possibilities than to say "this is what happened" without hard data?



Arditi
Posted - 02/27/2006 : 9:41:48 PM
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...Doss, talk with dgv2 or Bofei on this 8mm TS barrel issue. They have some interesting thoughts. Bofei in particular has an additional theory/premise that maybe we can get him to disclose. What do you think Bofei? After my earlier angry posts, believe me, I find the diameter issue on the 8mm TS rather interesting as well.

I do feel it is rather premature to state that the barrels were done "in the U.S. by importers" as STATED FACT though. Nothing wrong with coming up with a theoried premise and then trying to prove or disprove it with research. Good, honest, undicked with research. I do believe that we are going to need additional documentation(if it's out there) from other sources besides relying only on barrel dimensions. Interesting questions are raised by Bofei's and dgv2's findings though.

...My understanding is that there are three major periods of possible manufacture or reboring of the 8mm TS. I put forth 1938, 1941 and post-war for the Egyptians. I do not know this as fact, but based on Hobb's and a belief amongst carcani collectors that post-war many 8mm TS were rebored from earlier 6.5 barrels and many/ if not most of the earlier contract(1938 and 1941) were included into this batch sent to Egypt. I believe this to be true based on the farsi/arabic writing on most of the stocks from these rifles. Perhaps dgv2 and Bofei would like to share more? Arditi



Ronin48
Posted - 02/28/2006 : 09:34:14 AM
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Some years back I contacted "your friendly government agency, the BATF" about a past import of Arisakas, where from? More or less told it was a gov. secret, none of my business. If anyone can get me the name, address of seller (SARCO?) and approximae dates they were advertised, I'll send my 'friends' in Washington, through my Alabama Senator a "Freedom of Informaton" act request for the importer/country of origin and caliber of the rifles when imported. May work, may not, but worth a try.

The information is out there, it's just the effort to put it together. Thomas Keep (CA) has done an excellent job of digging up long-thought-lost info on early 20th Century Arisaka deals. Came up with a new clipping where first 10K shipment of 7mm T-38s from Japan to Mexico were delivered!



Arditi
Posted - 02/28/2006 : 12:14:46 PM
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Springfield Sporters?...I think...I received two examples...through an intermediary that received them from Springfield Sporters in the late 90's. Did Spr. Sporters get them from Century Arms? Arditi



DMala
Posted - 02/28/2006 : 1:34:35 PM
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The discussion on the bore diameters may be interesting, but given the acrimony of the posts, and the fear to be sucked in personal argumentations, I decided to make no comments until a table is shown showing the date, maker, serial, and bore diameter of the 8mm TSs tested. This is the only way to consider if there is a possible link to specific production lots, or if it occurs at random (assuming the sample is big enough to make hypotheses).
 

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Discussion Starter #2
8mm TS Carcanos

böfei
Posted - 03/02/2006 : 5:38:53 PM
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The recent local controversy over this weapon has also got me interested. I did some digging and got some interesting results.

It do not believe these were made in the states by the importer and I do beleive they were military arms of some type for some country. This is the part that cannot be determined with absolute certainty yet.

here is why:
Receiver, clip retainer and stock have all been modifeid to accept 8mm clips (where they are yet to be determined)
Bolts faces have been opened up slightly to accept 8mm case head.

These mods are too extensive to be chop-shop work and would have driven prices well over the 69.95 that they were selling for.

Arditi directed me to a book called Il 91. One of these weapons (a mirror image to mine) is pictured on page 124. It is in an arms museum in italy. This book was published in 1970. I learned from contacting CAI (the importer) that these arms were imported in the 1980s. S marked TS in 8mm existed at least 10 years before they came to the US in any significant numbers.

They only real question now is are these the guns that were made wartime or are these mostly post war guns for middle eastern nations.

In my research thus far, my opionion has been altered. I initially believed these were mostly made from parts post 1945 and sold to egypt sometime around 1953.
I cannot stand strongly behind that anymore, things I have read lead me to believe that many of these weapons may infact be the rifles made during ww2 (of course not the german ones).
This is however still up in the air and much information is still needed. I am activly on the search right now.

If anyone has any input please share.

some interesting questions would be correleating years and markings on these weapons.

Mine has these inspector marks FC and a stylized L over what appears to be a D and has NO original serial number. RE Terni 1941



NebrHogger
Posted - 03/03/2006 : 7:15:07 PM
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The clincher for me that these were made during the war is that mention of them can be found in the National Archives in Wash. DC. There are WWII Italian supply documents that mention their shipment to troops in Russia.

On page 28 of Hobb's book, there is mention of "a small number of these are found with 1938 dated barrels, and the stocks have R.A. or R.B. letter prefix R.A. or R.B. can also appear on the barrel."

I have one of these with 1938 on the barrel. The serial number - R.B.XX ( a two-digit number) also appears there. The stock appears to have been replaced at some time and bears the remains of the white markings placed there by the Egyptians.

This does not constitute positive proof but leans strongly in that direction. SW



airdale
Posted - 03/03/2006 : 11:03:39 PM
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My 8MM Cav. carbine doesn't have a date but has "L. Franchi, Brescia" stamped on the underside of the tang and according to the Carcano book that would put it in the 1940-43 date range.



böfei
Posted - 03/03/2006 : 11:10:32 PM
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Not to go against what you guys are saying,
but a 1938 or a 1941 etc barrel date is not a definate indicator of when these barrels were made into 8mm.
Mine was (imho) converted from a 6.5 rifle to an 8mm rifle. I believe your 1938 rifle is the same.
I am not saying these were not converted pre 1945, but I don't believe that date tells us about the 8mm conversions.



airdale
Posted - 03/03/2006 : 11:30:26 PM
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My Cav. carbine barrel was also converted to 8MM from another caliber because the old serial number is still visible and the new number is stamped above it. L. Franchi was at the Brescia arsenal between 1940-43 and as far as I know the 8MM Carcano's are the only caliber that has this stamp.



Arditi
Posted - 03/04/2006 : 10:45:32 AM
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I would like to see or know where to get access to the documents that Mr. Hobbs refers to in his book concerning periods of manufacture. I still believe there are at least two periods of manufacture based on fascist dates known and how examples seem to group around these dates of...1938 and 1941, except for the "no date" FNA-B(Brescia). I do not have a problem with earlier 6.5 barrels being redone into 8mm, but this could have been done 1938, 1941 or later at some point. Theoretically, I do not have a problem with later piecing together of these rifles at some later date, but I still think we need documentation to verify this. I am only talking so-called Italian 8mm not the German ones. I belive Mr. Franchi has come up with documentation on the German/Carcano 8mm already?
All in all, interesting weapons that deserve better than they receive sometimes. Continue the study gents! Arditi



airdale
Posted - 03/04/2006 : 11:27:58 AM
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I also think there were two periods these were made because of the varation in bore dimentions. My FNA-B (no date) RA serial numbered TS carbine has .310-.322 bore measurements with a 1 in 9 1/4" twist. The Cav carbine has .312-.323 bore with a 1 in 10" twist. Both of these rifles are made by FNA-B and if they were made at the same time I would think the bore dimentions and twist rates would be about the same.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Carcano 8mm Safety-Bore Sizes

dgv2
Posted - 03/21/2006 : 11:41:02 AM
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Gentlemen,

Due to some recent posts on this board, it has become obvious to me that some folks (myself included) are shooting the Carcano 8mm rifles. Spotty results, some good and some bad, caused me to believe that there might be a bore problem, so I started slugging bores. In a small sample (the six 8mm Carcanos I own), I discovered bore sizes ranging from the incredibly dangerous (with factory 8mm ammo) to some that cause concern to some with more or less normal bore dimensions. My results were:

TS #2288 .311 x .316 inch.*
TS #RA98583 .309 x .321 inch.**
TS #RA98500 .310 x .322 inch.
TS #2127 .311 x .322 inch.
CC #5018 .310 x .323 inch.
TS #2082 .313 x .324 inch.

*This rifle would be incredibly dangerous to shoot with surplus .323" German 8x57mm heavy ball ammo. Forcing a 196-grain bullet down a .316" bore with a heavy powder charge probably would be recipe for disaster. I don't plan on trying it!

**This rifle probably would be okay with light charges and using a .321" diameter .32 Win Spc bullet. I would not recommend surplus heavy ball or S&B heavy hunting ammo.

PLEASE NOTE: Out of a very small sample of six rifles. Three have such small bores as to cause me concern and one would be an absolute disaster to shoot with factory ammo! I make no representations as to knowing how these rifles got to be the way they are, but PLEASE SLUG YOUR BORE and use common sense before trying to shoot one of these rifles! Use appropriately sized jacketed bullets or light cast bullet loads, please. Either there are a large number of undersized bore guns out there or else I have been incredibly unlucky.

Information on how to slug a rifle's bore is commonly available on this board and from many other sources.

See you at the range.



GjMan
Posted - 03/21/2006 : 9:56:08 PM
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Thanks for the info; you just may have saved someone a little surprise.



NebrHogger
Posted - 03/21/2006 : 10:18:00 PM
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I miked my 3 TS & cav carbine. The cav carbine & 1 TS miked .323 - one TS was .324 & the last was .325

The cc & TS miking .323 were both scrubbed with only serial number on receiver. The .324 was a RA & 5 digit number - the last was RBXX.

I shoot only light cast loads in these in any case. SW



airdale
Posted - 03/21/2006 : 10:30:21 PM
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I have found these also have different twist rates. My two TS carbines have .310-.322 bore measurements and a 1 in 9 1/4 twist. My Cav. carbine has .312-323 bore with a 1 in 10 twist. One of the TS carbines and the Cav. fails a headspace check but the other TS headspace checks good. I only use low pressure hand loads in mine.



DMala
Posted - 03/22/2006 : 10:59:02 AM
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Thanks for the info
 
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