Joined
·
907 Posts
Originally Posted 11/03
While looking for a long lost NRA publication on British Enfields I came across a magazine I had forgotten, "Guns & Ammo's Complete Guide to Surplus Firearms" copyright 1987 The author of the Carcano chapter was Harris Bierman. He states that the 8mm conversions are not safe to shoot. Is there some new info or are you guys flirting with a KaBoom?
rbjr
Aethelbert
Gunboards Super Premium Member
USA
352 Posts
Posted - 11/26/2003 : 11:48:40 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shades of that old saw about how all Carcano rifles and carbines are just mini-bombs waiting to shove their bolts through your skull! The 8mm conversions are not inherently unsafe to shoot. Awkward? Yes, due to non-existence of any available 8mm clips and also to the fact that the Carcano is not designed to function as a single shot without some sort of modification to the magazine. The recoil will also be rather stiffer than with either 6.5 or 7.35 cartridges.
The one point that can be made in support of Bierman is that, if you get an 8mm Carcano, be sure to have it headspaced _before_ you try firing it, as they seem prone to excessive headspace and, of course, firing a rifle that has excessive headspace could have unexpected and less than pleasant results. In short -- just exercise normal care and caution.
scram
Starting Member
7 Posts
Posted - 12/17/2003 : 03:11:09 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd be cautious shooting any 8mm Carcano. Not because of the design of the Carcano, but because of the haphazardness of the of conversion.
Take a look at these pictures and let me know what you think..
Download Attachment:
113.51 KB
![]()
Carcano
Moderator Italian Weapons Forum
Germany
1040 Posts
Posted - 12/17/2003 : 03:51:22 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scam's photo (apart from the almost unavoidable optical distortion due to the angle) is misinterpreted w.r.t. the measurements. Nevertheless, he is right in pointing out that the locking lug recesses have been weakened when the receiver cutout for the 8mm cartridge was lengthened. This is the main reason (together with the aforementioned headspace issues) why many of us recommend using mild ammo, not full-power old surplus. Also, not all Moschetti TS "S" have been converted with equal diligence.
Regards,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alexander Eichener
Email: [email protected]
Carcano Website: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano
scram
Starting Member
7 Posts
Posted - 12/17/2003 : 04:28:51 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe this angle shows it a little better. The rifle on the left is one of the current crop of 8mm Carcanos on the market. Rifle on the right is the 6.5mm carcano.
Download Attachment:
204.26 KB
![]()
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by - scram on 12/17/2003 04:32:43 AM
formac
Gunboards Premium Member
161 Posts
Posted - 12/19/2003 : 02:06:54 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
may be smart and safer to hand load with gas cheeked cast bullets also i see on the 3fer that i rec. that all the firing pins look to have had there tips replaced and crossed pined
Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut
2647 Posts
Posted - 12/20/2003 : 4:29:44 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carcano
Moderator Italian Weapons Forum
Germany
1040 Posts
Posted - 12/20/2003 : 5:27:45 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*YAWN*
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alexander Eichener
Email: [email protected]
Carcano Website: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano
Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut
2647 Posts
Posted - 12/21/2003 : 08:44:19 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carcano, I don't think he's yawning in that pic. My position is this: Carcano's are about as safe as any other WW2 military rifle when used with the ammunition they were designed for. These little 6.5mm TS carbines, bored out to 7.92mm do not fall into that category IMHO, and for the reasons depicted. Sure, you can fire them that way and the odds are you would not get a face full of shrapnel. But why would you want to? Have you ever fired one of these in 8mm and enjoyed it? My experience was quite negative with terrible recoil, incredible inaccuracy, and extraction problems in a single shot carbine. If I want to shoot 8mm, I shoot a Mauser Kar.98k or derivative. In any event, Happy Holidays to ya'll !
Hambone
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Carcano
*YAWN*
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut
2647 Posts
Posted - 12/21/2003 : 08:47:17 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, BTW, in looking at those pics, one thing gets my immediate attention: Can you think of any other rechambered rifle that requires the RECEIVER to be cutout so that a cartridge will actually go in the magazine? That's a stretch (pun intended).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carcano
Moderator Italian Weapons Forum
Germany
1040 Posts
Posted - 12/21/2003 : 09:46:44 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scram's postings shows the problem, whereas Hambone's posting (apart from the obfuscation effect) shows bad taste and a sense of "humour" very different from mine. So be it.
As to the receiver cut-out, this is a potential problem. Kuhnhausen deals with it in his Mauser gunsmithing book. Many "custom" gunsmiths have made and sometimes still make the same mistake. But this not does justify the practice. The important question is, of course: just how much material still remains ? It is more than scram's photographs suggest, incidentally.
Regards,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alexander Eichener
Email: [email protected]
Carcano Website: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano
Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut
2647 Posts
Posted - 12/21/2003 : 10:38:32 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carcano, I fail to see any "obfuscation effect". Nice big word, but it doesn't apply to my postings. Sorry you don't find Jimmy Earl funny. In any event, I stand firmly behind my negative comments on 8mm Carcano conversions. This position is backed by Scram's pictures. Respectfully, I think in your desire to defend the Carcano system you have taken to defending the 8mm Carcano conversion. Again, while I find the Carcano to be the worst and most dated infantry rifle design used during WW2, it does function and it does safely fire the ammunition for which it was designed. It was NOT designed to fire 8mm. And unlike the 7.35 chambering, not a whole lot of thought and workmanship went into the 8mm conversions. Either this thing was really supposed to fire a reduce loaded, special 8mm round, OR the worst infantry rifle of WW2 was made even worse by turning it into an inaccurate, excessive recoiling, poor extracting, weak receivered single shot. If I am in error here, please indicate a rifle design used in WW2 worse than the Carcano. The best (or worst) I can come up with is the French Lebel or Berthier, which were WW1 retreads. I even prefer the Mas36 to the Carcano for field use (not collecting) which ain't saying much. I've studied, stripped, and fired them all, except the Jap. T.38 carbine (though I've fired the woodpecker T.44 carbine (2nd variant), which was fun to shoot, accurate, and well made). Again, I have a small (but very nice) Carcano collection and I collect Italian infantry uniforms, headgear, equipment, etc. I'm an old AMICI member. I really like my Italian WW2 collectibles. But I would hate to be armed with a Carcano and equipped with their WW2 gear when I could have ANYTHING else. Again, notwithstanding the safety concerns, the 8mm Carcano I fired, and own, afforded a terrible, annoying, oppressive range experience. Hardly worth risking being blinded or maimed if the thing let go. Scram's posts partly show why a person should not fire 8mm Carcanos. Jimmy Earl is merely the poster child for not doing so.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by - Hambone on 12/21/2003 11:29:31 AM
Carcano
Moderator Italian Weapons Forum
Germany
1040 Posts
Posted - 12/21/2003 : 11:29:16 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Hambone
If I am in error here
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, you are. But even an erroneous and ignorant posting (like yours) has its merits. For example, it can serve to point out the intrinsic drawback of the 8mm conversion (which I have often written about and underlined here), and also its practical disadvantages in use.
While the Carcano was constructed and designed for a higher pressure than the German 7,92mm "S" service ammo - a fact which you are blissfully unaware of -, it must be kept in mind that this applies to the original receiver, not to the version with somewhat weakened locking lug recesses. That is why we usually recommend to use US commercial 8mm Mauser ammo or mild handloads, instead of surplus - better safe than sorry.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alexander Eichener
Email: [email protected]
Carcano Website: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by - Carcano on 12/21/2003 11:30:37 AM
Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut
2647 Posts
Posted - 12/21/2003 : 12:10:16 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alexander, I am not "blissfully unaware" of that fact at all. I am very aware that it has nothing whatsoever to do with the instant discussion, so why address it? Read my post again. What I said was "t was NOT designed to fire 8mm. And unlike the 7.35 chambering, not a whole lot of thought and workmanship went into the 8mm conversions." Was it designed to fire the 8mm? Nope. Was the receiver manufactured and engineered, from a pressure standpoint, to accomodate the 8mm? Nope. Is the 8x57S cartridge dimensionally quite different than the 6.5 and 7.35 Carcano? Yep. So, as an educated man you should know that your statement that the Carcano receiver was designed to handle HIGHER pressure than the 8mm is irrelevant to this inquiry. Your comment is pure red herring to this discussion. So, my question to you is this: The Carcano receiver was designed to handle higher pressures than the 8mm. Now, lets grind out the receiver and alter it to chamber an 8mm round, as depicted by Scram. Is it still the same receiver design that would handle the higher pressure? So, what does your comment about higher pressure have to do with a Carcano modified to fire 8mm? I'd like to hear it as maybe I'll learn something new that firearms designers and manufacturers have universally agreed with me on since the first receiver was made. Hopefully, I don't need to explain dimensional tolerances, psi and C.U.P. tolerance, and stress factors which don't stay the same after you grind away the inside of a receiver, along with the different pressure curves of various types of ammunition, bullet weights, burn rates, etc.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dub
Gunboards Premium Member
107 Posts
Posted - 12/21/2003 : 12:42:48 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Receiver alterations and pressure ratings aside - Is there any record of any firing use of these rifles with any military force?
Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut
2647 Posts
Posted - 12/21/2003 : 1:05:21 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nope. The only 8mm Carcano's that can be definitely connected to any military are those German WW2 H&K WaA proofed, single shot conversions with electro pencilled matching bolts. These are Volkssturm, last ditch, weapons. The Volkssturm was issued anything that went bang and launched a projectile at that time. There is mention of an 8mm Fucile Russ (sic) in old archives, but that could simply mean issue of the Kar.98k or other 8mm to Italian troops serving on the Eastern Front. I think we would see historical reports of the massacre of Italian troops armed with single shot 8mm conversions if those were in fact issued. Care to address this Alexander as you are more informed than me on this subject?
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Dub
Receiver alterations and pressure ratings aside - Is there any record of any firing use of these rifles with any military force?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut
2647 Posts
Posted - 12/21/2003 : 1:25:12 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And here you go Carcano. I hope this pic eliminates your need to raise the Carcano receiver pressure matter in re 8mm and refer to me as "ignorant" and "meritless" for refusing to consider your Carcano pressure sound bite. Standard issue 1939 date 7.35 Carcano on the left, 7.92 1940 date German on the right. Note that the shadowing does not clearly show that the 8mm casing and projectile are noticeably larger in diameter as well. However, the correct comparison to your flawed analysis would be 6.5 Carcano to 8mm, and the visible (and functional) difference is more extreme. Anybody want to take bets on whether boring a receiver designed for 6.5mm to 8mm changes the strength of a receiver re psi and cup tolerance? Yep, the 6.5 and 7.35 both generate about 40-50,000 psi (depending on the round and measuring device). The 8x57 generates 35-50,000 psi, again depending on the round and measuring device. Reaming the Carcano receiver to take an 8x57 round pushes said receiver to its limits of safe structural modification. Ask Dick Hobbs. Now, add the prospect of heavy loaded 8mm MG ammunition, proof rounds, or unstable surplus, and you may lose that margin of pressure safety built the receiver design The Carcano receiver is quite strong, but not trimmed out to digest an 8mm, as shown by the pictures here.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by - Hambone on 12/21/2003 2:16:02 PM
mauserdad
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
USA
2983 Posts
Posted - 12/21/2003 : 8:56:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I fired 10rds of 8mm surplus (not Turk) through my Springfield Sporter Carcano using a modified clip I made.I did check the headspace and it was good.I was aprehensive with each shot and held the rifle away from me.Kicked like a mule.Looking back on it now I think Hambones comments has some merit.I have to many other safe rifles to have fun with.My curiosity with that rifle has been satisfied and it now sets in the rack.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NRA Life Member
John 3:16&17
Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut
2647 Posts
Posted - 12/21/2003 : 9:08:13 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mauserdad, you were 5 rounds smarter than me as I fired 15 through mine before I got the picture, which wasn't pretty or accurate. Having to use my Dewey rod every other round to knock out the empties didn't impress me, nor did 8-10 moa, nor did the pain in my shoulder. This thing is a curousity only. Had it not been so, they would have been used in a capacity other than last ditch Volkssturm single shot and we wouldn't be scratching our heads trying to determine who used them and when. By comparison, the 7.35 is not a bad round, with the ballistics of about a .30-30 if I'm not mistaken. The 8mm is NOT a .30-30, but more in league with a .308 or .30 M2. The Carcano has no business bored out for an 8mm.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by mauserdad
I fired 10rds of 8mm surplus (not Turk) through my Springfield Sporter Carcano using a modified clip I madeI did check the headspace and it was good.I was aprehensive with each shot and held the rifle away from meKicked like a mule.Looking back on it now I think Hambones comments has some merit.I have to many other safe rifles to have fun with.My curiosity with that rifle has been satisfied and it now sets in the rack.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carcano
Moderator Italian Weapons Forum
Germany
1040 Posts
Posted - 12/22/2003 : 03:56:04 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quoting an earlier posting from Bill Davis:
FWIW I tried to blow up an 8MM Carcano with bad headspace, I filled 2 cases with Red Dot pistol powder, and crammed a huge 8MM Lebel bullet on top of the whole mess. The gun jumped about 3 feet in the air, tire and all (I tied it to a "donut"-type spare tire), the cases blew out and totally filled the chamber, and had to be driven out. After all that, it still fired regular 8MM with no problems, or swelling brass, or anything like that. (I went ahead and fired another 20 rounds of regular 8MM-by remote-just to see if it had any effect on the rifle, none that was apparent). I then "retired" the rifle "for the good of the service" (!!).
--
Bill Davis
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alexander Eichener
Email: [email protected]
Carcano Website: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by - Carcano on 12/22/2003 04:02:55 AM
Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut
2647 Posts
Posted - 12/22/2003 : 08:24:19 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm sorry, but I cannot use Bill Davis' single, informal, pressure test to make me feel comfortable firing a whole range of converted rifles about which we can only postulate as to origin and manufacture. The Carcano action is strong as designed and manufactured. Who, what, when, where, and how much metal was removed in the conversion to 8mm (a cartridge for which it was not designed) is troubling. My negative experience firing one, and observations, cause me to advise against firing them. I'm sure if I hit a tree going 40 mph my airbags would always deploy. But I don't test that theory as a) testing it isn't fun, and b) the downside to an instance of nondeployment is bad. Same with shooting the 8mm Carcano. I take great issue with Carcano referring to me as "ignorant" and this position as "meritless". Such comments are unnecessary, especially in light of the obvious logic backing my position. Carcano, you and your adherents have a great time firing your 8mm Carcanos. I'll be firing my 8mm too, but it will be a Kar.98k, which was designed to fire that calibre. As an aside, thanks to Bill for doing that test. Happy holidays ya'll
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Carcano
Quoting an earlier posting from Bill Davis:
FWIW I tried to blow up an 8MM Carcano with bad headspace, I filled 2 cases with Red Dot pistol powder, and crammed a huge 8MM Lebel bullet on top of the whole mess. The gun jumped about 3 feet in the air, tire and all (I tied it to a "donut"-type spare tire), the cases blew out and totally filled the chamber, and had to be driven out. After all that, it still fired regular 8MM with no problems, or swelling brass, or anything like that. (I went ahead and fired another 20 rounds of regular 8MM-by remote-just to see if it had any effect on the rifle, none that was apparent). I then "retired" the rifle "for the good of the service" (!!).
--
Bill Davis
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by - Hambone on 12/22/2003 2:16:59 PM
Dub
Gunboards Premium Member
107 Posts
Posted - 12/22/2003 : 1:52:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It seems that potential military users also came to the conclusion of not shooting them. I have seem a number of them beat to pieces on the outside, very good on the inside. It seems that former users did everything they could with them except shoot them.
scram
Starting Member
7 Posts
Posted - 12/23/2003 : 6:44:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Personally, I have much bigger fish to fry. This particular 8mm carcano is a curiosity to me. I do not plan on shooting mine any time soon I have PLENTY of other 8mm's and Carcanos that haven't shot. This one is last in line. I think I'd probably look into shooting my Vetterli before shooting this rifle.
Bill Davis
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
1590 Posts
Posted - 12/25/2003 : 5:05:27 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The one I have now I never shoot. Mine is like Hambone's, won't extract, can't hit a barn, etc. I didn't mean to make my blow-up test look like I was saying "You can't hurt these things", just "it probably won't kill you" which is debatable. I am more leery of them (the 8MMs) now than I ever was. Another thing that convinced me was checking headspace & finding it bad on 3 different rifles. This is one conversion that just didn't "take", and I'm glad I have a representative specimen, but I'm not going to shoot it anymore. I have about 6 others in 6.5 and 7.35 to shoot, and ACCURATE 8MM rifles, so I gave up on this turkey a long time ago (after tweaking it for 2 weeks to get it to feed #[email protected]!). If I ever get back to reloading I'll make up some super-mild loads & see if it extracts.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Davis
Carcano
Moderator Italian Weapons Forum
Germany
1040 Posts
Posted - 12/25/2003 : 6:13:17 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Grin*
Dear Grinch, ugh, I mean dear Bill, by my quotation I did not really intend to cite you as the crown witness for the brilliance and outstanding quality of the 8mm conversions.
Just as a rebuttal against the "these are so dangerous" myth.
Warm regards,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alexander Eichener
Email: [email protected]
Carcano Website: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano
Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut
2647 Posts
Posted - 12/26/2003 : 09:54:32 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The myth is not that they are "so dangerous". The reality is that they are NOT safe to shoot in an 8mm chambering. I think Bill's headspace observations and shooting experiences, which were identical to mine, indicate serious problems. Another fact is that this conversion pushes the structural limits of the Carcano action, EVEN IF DONE CORRECTLY. You may find my Jimmy Earl humor in bad taste, but it has a practical safety reminder built into it. Alexander, surely you don't advocate or even condone the firing of these things. And if you don't, then my position cannot be "ignorant" or "meritless". There are too many perfectly good, accurate, fun to shoot, well designed milsurps out there to take chances with one of these little beasts. Again, Bill, a big thanks to you for taking the time to conduct destructive testing on your 8mm TS and reporting the results. We can all sit around speculating and what-iffing, but this is where good info comes from. Didn't you do the same thing with an MN at one time? Someone did and found the action like a tank.
cheers, Hambone
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Carcano
*Grin*
Dear Grinch, ugh, I mean dear Bill, by my quotation I did not really intend to cite you as the crown witness for the brilliance and outstanding quality of the 8mm conversions.
Just as a rebuttal against the "these are so dangerous" myth.
Warm regards,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carcano
Moderator Italian Weapons Forum
Germany
1040 Posts
Posted - 12/26/2003 : 10:33:47 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The headspace observation and the sometimes difficult extraction (due to rough maching of the chambers and nothing else) have been described in Dick Hobbs' book and (on the second account) by myself, too. Include the unpleasant recoil (due to the curved, small buttplate) and you have good reasons not to shoot such a gun regularly. Furtheron, the lowered limits of structural integrity suggest that one limit oneself to mild loads, and that one check headspace regularly.
The rest is exaggeration. And the persistent adjective "meritless" is an invention of Hambone's fanciful fantasy (misled here as well as in other statements), for I have stated the exact contrary, as a brief look upwards corroborates; I did expressedly acknowledge the merit of the objection, even though it be unsound in its exaggeration.
But reading comprehension is not given to everybody in equal measure, especially not when it's interfering with an ideological crusade.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alexander Eichener
Email: [email protected]
Carcano Website: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano
Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut
2647 Posts
Posted - 12/26/2003 : 10:52:25 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, OK, "erroneous" and "ignorant". "Ignorant" is insulting enough, especially in light of what I am advocating: Do not fire 8mm Carcano conversions as they are unsafe. Carcano, now you have watered down your position to include an admission that structural integrity is compromised in these carbines (I assume I am no longer "ignorant" to this regard) and that one should "use mild loads" and "check headspace regularly" when firing an 8mm Carcano conversion. That's a tad scary to me as what is a "mild load" and "regularly" and why must I do this? Are you aware of any fatalities caused by milsurp rifle failures? I am. I fail to see any exaggeration in proclaiming an 8mm Carcano dangerous.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carcano
Moderator Italian Weapons Forum
Germany
1040 Posts
Posted - 12/26/2003 : 10:58:53 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Hambone
Oh, OK, "erroneous" and "ignorant". "Ignorant" is insulting enough, especially in light of what I am advocating: Do not fire 8mm Carcano conversions as they are unsafe. Carcano, now you have watered down your position
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, not really "now" .
I have written so, and have cautioned so constantly, long before you even were aware of these guns; be it on rec.guns, on ParallaxBill's boardsor here. Indeed, the whole thread shows a gradual (and commendable) learning curve of yours, and I am glad about this. This is one of the main and most valuable functions of gunboards: sharing of information (and of opinion), and learning.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alexander Eichener
Email: [email protected]
Carcano Website: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano
Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut
2647 Posts
Posted - 12/26/2003 : 1:52:26 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alexander, respectfully what this shows is you and I misunderstanding each other. Perhaps as a result of my crude humor and use of an 8mm Carcano as the subject of same (vice an M1903 low number, etc.) you assumed my knowledge on the subject spawned from Big Bob with the Endcap. It doesn't. I always look to steepen my learning curve, and both you and Bill have helped, especially with the enlightenment of Bills' destructive testing and greater respect for the Carcano action. However, I have always understood the following, which were not part of any "learning curve": 1) The Carcano action is strong, as designed, and redesigned for 7.35. 2) The psi generated by the 6.5 and 7.35 are almost identical, and the rounds are similar. 3) The structural integrity (strength) of the Carcano action is compromised to the maximum degree of suitability by removing metal from it to digest a 7.92 round, which substantial modifications were unnecessary with the 7.35 4) 8mm conversions vary in quality and workmanship and the history behind same is nebulous at best (I'm more concerned about my safety than the Eqyptian or Syrian gubments are about that of their civil defense forces). I've been aware of these rifles and the same arguments concerning their background since about 1985. I didn't fire them then, nor do I fire them now. I respect your specialized knowledge in this field, but please don't dismiss differing opinions as "ignorant". Such a position is not good for anyone's learning curve
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carcano
Moderator Italian Weapons Forum
Germany
1040 Posts
Posted - 12/27/2003 : 10:47:16 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Hambone:
I have just come back from the range (all walking, with rifle and ammo bag, mind you: this is not Car Country), and have test fired my own 8mm carbine again. Altogether 25 rounds, all of European origin (Igman 170 grains SP, Geco 185 grains SP, Prvi Partizan 195 grains SP, FNM 198 grains FMJ).
The results were astonishing (with regard to pressure signs and ease of difficulty of extraction, as well as to accuracy). The test showed that the carbine's accuracy was extremely ammo dependent: from rather GOOD (the top-notch RWS-made Geco Target) to truly dismal (Portuguese FNM Target). This may partially explain Hambone's bad experience.
Also, my shooting technique is bad. With a short gun like this, proper posture, exactly repeatable bench resting, and equal shoulder pressure are very important, such as not to induce vertical stringing (which I did). In addition, shots began to wander when the barrel became hot (tight fit at the front band)
Astonishingly, recoil was very tolerable in all cases (and I am a recoil sensitive person, rather slim built), and proved indeed to be much better than my 12/70 shotgun. I admit using a PAST recoil pad, though, which certainly helped; but the same I use when firing the shotgun. I have found this gun actually more pleasant to shoot than a couple of other milsurp rifles which I own. Believe it or not, but it's true.
I shall soon post a more extensive range report.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alexander Eichener
Email: [email protected]
Carcano Website: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by - Carcano on 12/27/2003 5:07:31 PM
FGD135
Gunboards Super Premium Member
375 Posts
Posted - 12/27/2003 : 9:33:55 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps those 8mm Carcanos could be attractive table lamps if properly mounted and shaded. One idea would be to insert some kind of hollow post into the muzzle and thread the power cord down the bore, hiding it from view. The lamp socket could be threaded onto the top of this post and maybe the cord could then go out through the clip hole in the bottom of the magazine well Wouldn't it be fun if you could rig a switch to turn the lamp on/off by either pulling the trigger or working the bolt? Not fully opening the bolt, of course, but just lifting the handle...
Bud
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
USA
2691 Posts
Posted - 12/28/2003 : 12:17:26 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can see that since Hambone is denegrating 8mm Carcanos, this leads me to believe he is actually hoarding them(like his tirades on fake SS K98 rifles which reduces buyer competition, but he seems to have a rather large collection of such rifles), so I a beginning to wonder just how great these 8mm Carcanos are!
Maybe I should have me a few for shooting regularly with light surplus ammunition and reloads, cause surely I now suspect I am missing out on something, haha.
Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut
2647 Posts
Posted - 12/28/2003 : 01:23:57 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bud, as far as fake SS Kar.98k's, you guys can have them all as I am not in competition for those. Please, don't let my denigration of same stop anyone from buying fakes or shooting 8mm Carcanos. Alexander, you had a far better shooting experience than I ever did. I am not really recoil sensitive and I did not enjoy shooting my 8mm TS. I'm fond of it as a curio, not a shooter. FGD, if you find a way to use the bolt as an on/off switch, please post up as you may have found a new market use for those Arab imported 8mm conversions
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Bud
I can see that since Hambone is denegrating 8mm Carcanos, this leads me to believe he is actually hoarding them(like his tirades on fake SS K98 rifles which reduces buyer competition, but he seems to have a rather large collection of such rifles), so I a beginning to wonder just how great these 8mm Carcanos are!
Maybe I should have me a few for shooting regularly with light surplus ammunition and reloads, cause surely I now suspect I am missing out on something, haha.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bud
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
USA
2691 Posts
Posted - 12/28/2003 : 06:41:41 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Okay, who is going to be the first one to convert one to 30-06!
Franchi
Gunboards Super Premium Member
USA
368 Posts
Posted - 12/31/2003 : 12:53:44 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't want to start this discussion all over again but would like to add. I never looked at the locking lug cut outs on the 8mm that close before, they have been reduced quite a bit, but I would think the Italians would have tested these 8mm carbines before going into production (in my opinion the Italians did manufacture many of these 8mm carbines before 1945, they are not all post-war)
Could one reason the German "HK" 8mm conversions are single shot is so they wouldn't have to weaken the receiver?
I have only shot one of my 8mm carbines (non-import 1941 R.E. Terni) with military surplus, I had no extraction problems, but in the future I think I would only use lighter re-loads as suggested above.
David Franchi
Carcano
Moderator Italian Weapons Forum
Germany
1040 Posts
Posted - 12/31/2003 : 1:11:12 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I had no extraction problems in one of my guns with Prvi Partizan, Geco Target and Igman, but severe ones with FNM.
As to David's question: a single-shot conversion is just the cheapest, fastest and most practical measures. One needs neither special clips, nor a reworked bolt face, nor receiver cuts. These considerations are practical and economical rather than safety-related, I believe.
Regards,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alexander Eichener
Email: [email protected]
Carcano Website: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano
Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut
2647 Posts
Posted - 01/01/2004 : 12:46:37 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with the analysis re Italian v. German conversions. It would be nice if our Italian friends could unearth documentation on the Italian 8mm TS conversions (i.e., why, when, who). Happy new year.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Carcano
I had no extraction problems in one of my guns with Prvi Partizan, Geco Target and Igman, but severe ones with FNM.
As to David's question: a single-shot conversion is just the cheapest, fastest and most practical measures. One needs neither special clips, nor a reworked bolt face, nor receiver cuts. These considerations are practical and economical rather than safety-related, I believe.
Regards,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anthony
Gunboards Super Premium Member
330 Posts
Posted - 03/15/2004 : 8:44:59 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To spice up this thread! What about the small number of Italian made Japanese Type I in 6.5 Arasaka converted to 8MM Mauser for use by Italian/German forces after delivery to Japan was halted and guns in Italian-German stocks were converted/issued?
I know of one example, but can't get pictures from the bloak!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anthony Fortino
Carcano
Moderator Italian Weapons Forum
Germany
1040 Posts
Posted - 03/16/2004 : 2:24:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by rbjr
While looking for a long lost NRA publication on British Enfields I came across a magazine I had forgotten, "Guns & Ammo's Complete Guide to Surplus Firearms" copyright 1987. The author of the Carcano chapter was Harris Bierman.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
An ignorant in many respects. See the brief characterization of his article in the Carcano bibliography.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is there some new info
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes.
Read
this
board.
It's all there
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alexander Eichener
Email: [email protected]
Carcano Website: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano
Franchi
Gunboards Super Premium Member
USA
368 Posts
Posted - 03/16/2004 : 7:12:12 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anthony, Have you seen this 8mm Type I?
If not it is probably a late war M41 Italian long rifle which the owner thinks is a "Type I" because late war M41 rifles don't have any manufacturer name on the barrel/receiver so they kind of look like a Type I (no markings). I doubt it is an 8mm German "HK" conversion of the Type I, it could be a Chinese 8mm conversion.
David Franchi
Bill Davis
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
1590 Posts
Posted - 03/17/2004 : 03:47:03 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I know I've posted this before, but there was a guy back in the 60's who converted 7.35's to .308 (I think he charged $5). I'm sure he didn't rebore them, so he just counted on that 308 bullet to swage down to .299 a la 88 Commission rifle (.323 to .318) I wonder how many-if any-of these converted rifles experienced "problems", maybe conributing to the blow-up stories we hear so much about-and see so LITTLE..? I remember reading somewhere that the 8MM has a very rapid pressure let-off, compared with the .308 which was described as more of a "sustained push" where the pressure level remains high for a longer period (measurable in microseconds probably), which is why 8MM conversions are allegedly safer than .308 conversions, bore diameters aside!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Davis
tbaus
Gunboards Premium Member
USA
101 Posts
Posted - 03/18/2004 : 11:45:13 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with Carcano I have shot 3 of the 5 I own, with commercial ammo. I have not seen any signs of overpressure. You guys who say this gun is punishing obviously have never shot a 300 H&H. With a proper hold the recoil is not bad. Other than shooting a foot to a foot and a half high at 100 yards, my three rifles group Ok so far. For me it is the sights. I don't like the proper hold of burying the front sight and my eyes don't see the slit in the rear sight too well. I am thinking of scoping one of these just to put the BS about accuracy and safety to bed. The actions in these are strong. The question of wartime use. Yeah, they were used by Israel in real wartime use. You guys who say show me this or show me that. Show me ONE case of a catastropic failure of an 8mm Carcano, not hearsay but actual proof. I guess the upside to this is if enough people buy the cock and bull about the 8mm Carcano being weak and inaccurate, I will get to buy more of them cheap.. Good shootin'...
Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut
2647 Posts
Posted - 03/23/2004 : 10:36:15 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh my. I just stopped by to visit my favorite thread Tbaus, are you joking? I'm quite sure with tweeking, handloads, drilling, tapping, experimentation, and a little custom work, you could make this sow's ear into a pistachio nut bag, but good grief. There is nothing in my safe worse than my 8mm T.S. However, it is one of my favorite Carcanos because it sucks and is mysterious.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by tbaus
I agree with Carcano. I have shot 3 of the 5 I own, with commercial ammo. I have not seen any signs of overpressure. You guys who say this gun is punishing obviously have never shot a 300 H&H. With a proper hold the recoil is not bad. Other than shooting a foot to a foot and a half high at 100 yards, my three rifles group Ok so far. For me it is the sights. I don't like the proper hold of burying the front sight and my eyes don't see the slit in the rear sight too well. I am thinking of scoping one of these just to put the BS about accuracy and safety to bed The actions in these are strong. The question of wartime use. Yeah, they were used by Israel in real wartime use. You guys who say show me this or show me that. Show me ONE case of a catastropic failure of an 8mm Carcano, not hearsay but actual proof. I guess the upside to this is if enough people buy the cock and bull about the 8mm Carcano being weak and inaccurate, I will get to buy more of them cheap.. Good shootin'...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anthony
Gunboards Super Premium Member
330 Posts
Posted - 03/27/2004 : 3:50:24 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I recollect that Springfield Sporters was selling them for $65.00 bucks and coundn't give them away a couple years back, as most collectors thought it would be insane to shoot them unless you were into pain, (YOUR OWN)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anthony Fortino
tbaus
Gunboards Premium Member
USA
101 Posts
Posted - 03/27/2004 : 3:50:28 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No Siree, Hambone. I am not joking... On a windy crappy day I shot 3 of these 8mm Carcano's at 100 meters. All three of them grouped. Now the groups mind you were high and left, and yes I did not use the proper Carcano sight hold. I am looking right now on Ebay for a cheap side mount scope mount. The scope will make up for my inability to see the rear sight. I will "ruin" one of these guns for the test. If for no other reason, to be the devils advocate. I LOVE a challenge. Safe to shoot. Mine are. I can't speak for yours. Kicking.. Nothing like the 7mm Magnum and .300 H&H I was weaned on 33 years ago. These guns were used after world war II in God only knows how many skirmishes and conflicts. One of mine has a brass stock disk with Arabic numbers I have experienced no hard to open bolt, other than one caused by chamber roughness. e.g. the bolt lifts fine to the top of it's stroke and then is hard to pull back as the shell begins to extract...indicating NOTHING to do with lugs, but rather everything to do with chamber roughness. I am shooting commercially loaded hunting rounds. But, if you don't mind, PLEASE keep telling everyone not to shoot these and that they are dangerous. That will help keep the price s low for a longer period of time... like lemmings to the sea...
Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut
2647 Posts
Posted - 03/31/2004 : 4:04:20 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't know that my comments would matter re the Carcano market and I don't know of anyone except you that buys 8mm Carcanos for plinking. Nope, none of this will affect the Carcano market. In fact, I don't know that my Carcanos have kept up with inflation. If they were $19.95 in 1962 and can be had for $49.95 now (40+ years later), then even without resorting to an amortization table I can tell you that Carcano's have decreased in value and this trend will likely continue unless the CPI and discount rate stays in the negatives. If you cornered the market on 8mm converted Carcanos I don't believe many would notice. You're a better man than me because I don't enjoy the challenge of spending alot of time trying to make something medicre (at best) work. I would rather have something that works and get proficient in it as opposed to backing up However, it is cool that you take the time to work up loads and report on these things. How would you like to have one in a war when everyone else had M1 Garands, Kar.98k's, etc.?
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by tbaus
No Siree, Hambone. I am not joking... On a windy crappy day I shot 3 of these 8mm Carcano's at 100 meters. All three of them grouped. Now the groups mind you were high and left, and yes I did not use the proper Carcano sight hold. I am looking right now on Ebay for a cheap side mount scope mount. The scope will make up for my inability to see the rear sight. I will "ruin" one of these guns for the test. If for no other reason, to be the devils advocate. I LOVE a challenge. Safe to shoot. Mine are. I can't speak for yours. Kicking.. Nothing like the 7mm Magnum and .300 H&H I was weaned on 33 years ago These guns were used after world war II in God only knows how many skirmishes and conflicts. One of mine has a brass stock disk with Arabic numbers. I have experienced no hard to open bolt, other than one caused by chamber roughness. e.g. the bolt lifts fine to the top of it's stroke and then is hard to pull back as the shell begins to extract...indicating NOTHING to do with lugs, but rather everything to do with chamber roughness. I am shooting commercially loaded hunting rounds. But, if you don't mind, PLEASE keep telling everyone not to shoot these and that they are dangerous. That will help keep the price s low for a longer period of time... like lemmings to the sea...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
tbaus
Gunboards Premium Member
USA
101 Posts
Posted - 03/31/2004 : 9:28:37 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, I agree if you bought one in 1962 for $19.95 then you did not make any money. To that end, I remember my Dad buying various mausers covered in cosmolene in the late 60's for less than $15 each. It was not possible to predict which of those cosmolene covered relics would be worth "something" in the future. Where you and I disagree is in the rifle being mediocre (at best)... I think they are a very neat, simple, effective design with great metalurgy... and perhaps something else you are missing is the slow rise in Carcano prices that started about a year ago. I am glad I bought my Swedish mausers before they doubled and tripled in price! I buy guns to shoot as well as collect. If I can't shoot em, I don't collect em... I will enjoy the challenge of proving ( not MAKING anything) these neat little rifles shoot just fine... BTW, I wouldn't want to be in a war with Kar.98k's etc. when everyone else had thermo-nuclear devices either! Keep your Carcano bashing coming!
Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut
2647 Posts
Posted - 04/01/2004 : 11:36:45 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I like Carcanos. I own seven. I did own fifteen at one time. I like them as collectables as the shooting experience is.....(yawn), nothing like shooting a Kar.98k, M1, or Enfield. Bashing? Nope, just the truth. They work fine and do what they are generally supposed to do. However, compared to every other service rifle fielded by every country in the 1940's, the Carcano, IMHO, was the worst by far. If we compare a Carcano as a weapon system to nothing, then it works great. If we compare it to everything else used at the time (WW2), then it is mediocre at best. Would you choose to carry one over any of the other rifles I mentioned? What is it better than? Again, I collect Carcanos because I LIKE THEM. Italy was a poor country that sustained unbelievable losses in WW1. They were doing the best they could and had no business entering WW2 when they did. And boy, if we knew in the 1960's what we know now re prices !
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by tbaus
Yeah, I agree if you bought one in 1962 for $19.95 then you did not make any money. To that end, I remember my Dad buying various mausers covered in cosmolene in the late 60's for less than $15 each. It was not possible to predict which of those cosmolene covered relics would be worth "something" in the future. Where you and I disagree is in the rifle being mediocre (at best).. I think they are a very neat, simple, effective design with great metalurgy... and perhaps something else you are missing is the slow rise in Carcano prices that started about a year ago. I am glad I bought my Swedish mausers before they doubled and tripled in price! I buy guns to shoot as well as collect. If I can't shoot em, I don't collect em... I will enjoy the challenge of proving ( not MAKING anything) these neat little rifles shoot just fine... BTW, I wouldn't want to be in a war with Kar.98k's etc. when everyone else had thermo-nuclear devices either! Keep your Carcano bashing coming!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anthony
Gunboards Super Premium Member
330 Posts
Posted - 04/02/2004 : 12:33:57 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hambone, I have found one carcano that has value and is going up in price, shoots very well, and has become popular with Japanese collectors. I speak of the Japanese Type I in 6.5 arisaka.
The only carcano ( Sort of but has many Arisaka features) that I own.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anthony Fortino
Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut
2647 Posts
Posted - 04/02/2004 : 08:46:13 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I tend to agree on the Type I. Ten years ago they were at about $125-150 for a nice example. Now, they are at about $250-300 for a nice example. However, I think the reason for the bump in value of the Type I is cross-over appeal to Japanese collectors. The German proofed Carcanos bring a premium for the same reason for German collectors. Both Arisakas and German WW2 service rifles have increased in value exponentially in the last 20 years. Note that a nice run of the mill, mummed, matching Jap. Type 99 would bring about $125-150 ten years ago. Now, they routinely bring $400-500+ if really nice.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Anthony
Hambone, I have found one carcano that has value and is going up in price, shoots very well, and has become popular with Japanese collectors. I speak of the Japanese Type I in 6.5 arisaka.
The only carcano ( Sort of but has many Arisaka features) that I own.
-------------------------------
http://old.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13377
While looking for a long lost NRA publication on British Enfields I came across a magazine I had forgotten, "Guns & Ammo's Complete Guide to Surplus Firearms" copyright 1987 The author of the Carcano chapter was Harris Bierman. He states that the 8mm conversions are not safe to shoot. Is there some new info or are you guys flirting with a KaBoom?
rbjr
Aethelbert
Gunboards Super Premium Member
USA
352 Posts
Posted - 11/26/2003 : 11:48:40 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shades of that old saw about how all Carcano rifles and carbines are just mini-bombs waiting to shove their bolts through your skull! The 8mm conversions are not inherently unsafe to shoot. Awkward? Yes, due to non-existence of any available 8mm clips and also to the fact that the Carcano is not designed to function as a single shot without some sort of modification to the magazine. The recoil will also be rather stiffer than with either 6.5 or 7.35 cartridges.
The one point that can be made in support of Bierman is that, if you get an 8mm Carcano, be sure to have it headspaced _before_ you try firing it, as they seem prone to excessive headspace and, of course, firing a rifle that has excessive headspace could have unexpected and less than pleasant results. In short -- just exercise normal care and caution.
scram
Starting Member
7 Posts
Posted - 12/17/2003 : 03:11:09 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd be cautious shooting any 8mm Carcano. Not because of the design of the Carcano, but because of the haphazardness of the of conversion.
Take a look at these pictures and let me know what you think..
Download Attachment:
113.51 KB
Carcano
Moderator Italian Weapons Forum
Germany
1040 Posts
Posted - 12/17/2003 : 03:51:22 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scam's photo (apart from the almost unavoidable optical distortion due to the angle) is misinterpreted w.r.t. the measurements. Nevertheless, he is right in pointing out that the locking lug recesses have been weakened when the receiver cutout for the 8mm cartridge was lengthened. This is the main reason (together with the aforementioned headspace issues) why many of us recommend using mild ammo, not full-power old surplus. Also, not all Moschetti TS "S" have been converted with equal diligence.
Regards,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alexander Eichener
Email: [email protected]
Carcano Website: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano
scram
Starting Member
7 Posts
Posted - 12/17/2003 : 04:28:51 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe this angle shows it a little better. The rifle on the left is one of the current crop of 8mm Carcanos on the market. Rifle on the right is the 6.5mm carcano.
Download Attachment:
204.26 KB
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by - scram on 12/17/2003 04:32:43 AM
formac
Gunboards Premium Member
161 Posts
Posted - 12/19/2003 : 02:06:54 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
may be smart and safer to hand load with gas cheeked cast bullets also i see on the 3fer that i rec. that all the firing pins look to have had there tips replaced and crossed pined
Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut
2647 Posts
Posted - 12/20/2003 : 4:29:44 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carcano
Moderator Italian Weapons Forum
Germany
1040 Posts
Posted - 12/20/2003 : 5:27:45 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*YAWN*
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alexander Eichener
Email: [email protected]
Carcano Website: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano
Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut
2647 Posts
Posted - 12/21/2003 : 08:44:19 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carcano, I don't think he's yawning in that pic. My position is this: Carcano's are about as safe as any other WW2 military rifle when used with the ammunition they were designed for. These little 6.5mm TS carbines, bored out to 7.92mm do not fall into that category IMHO, and for the reasons depicted. Sure, you can fire them that way and the odds are you would not get a face full of shrapnel. But why would you want to? Have you ever fired one of these in 8mm and enjoyed it? My experience was quite negative with terrible recoil, incredible inaccuracy, and extraction problems in a single shot carbine. If I want to shoot 8mm, I shoot a Mauser Kar.98k or derivative. In any event, Happy Holidays to ya'll !
Hambone
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Carcano
*YAWN*
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut
2647 Posts
Posted - 12/21/2003 : 08:47:17 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, BTW, in looking at those pics, one thing gets my immediate attention: Can you think of any other rechambered rifle that requires the RECEIVER to be cutout so that a cartridge will actually go in the magazine? That's a stretch (pun intended).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carcano
Moderator Italian Weapons Forum
Germany
1040 Posts
Posted - 12/21/2003 : 09:46:44 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scram's postings shows the problem, whereas Hambone's posting (apart from the obfuscation effect) shows bad taste and a sense of "humour" very different from mine. So be it.
As to the receiver cut-out, this is a potential problem. Kuhnhausen deals with it in his Mauser gunsmithing book. Many "custom" gunsmiths have made and sometimes still make the same mistake. But this not does justify the practice. The important question is, of course: just how much material still remains ? It is more than scram's photographs suggest, incidentally.
Regards,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alexander Eichener
Email: [email protected]
Carcano Website: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano
Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut
2647 Posts
Posted - 12/21/2003 : 10:38:32 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carcano, I fail to see any "obfuscation effect". Nice big word, but it doesn't apply to my postings. Sorry you don't find Jimmy Earl funny. In any event, I stand firmly behind my negative comments on 8mm Carcano conversions. This position is backed by Scram's pictures. Respectfully, I think in your desire to defend the Carcano system you have taken to defending the 8mm Carcano conversion. Again, while I find the Carcano to be the worst and most dated infantry rifle design used during WW2, it does function and it does safely fire the ammunition for which it was designed. It was NOT designed to fire 8mm. And unlike the 7.35 chambering, not a whole lot of thought and workmanship went into the 8mm conversions. Either this thing was really supposed to fire a reduce loaded, special 8mm round, OR the worst infantry rifle of WW2 was made even worse by turning it into an inaccurate, excessive recoiling, poor extracting, weak receivered single shot. If I am in error here, please indicate a rifle design used in WW2 worse than the Carcano. The best (or worst) I can come up with is the French Lebel or Berthier, which were WW1 retreads. I even prefer the Mas36 to the Carcano for field use (not collecting) which ain't saying much. I've studied, stripped, and fired them all, except the Jap. T.38 carbine (though I've fired the woodpecker T.44 carbine (2nd variant), which was fun to shoot, accurate, and well made). Again, I have a small (but very nice) Carcano collection and I collect Italian infantry uniforms, headgear, equipment, etc. I'm an old AMICI member. I really like my Italian WW2 collectibles. But I would hate to be armed with a Carcano and equipped with their WW2 gear when I could have ANYTHING else. Again, notwithstanding the safety concerns, the 8mm Carcano I fired, and own, afforded a terrible, annoying, oppressive range experience. Hardly worth risking being blinded or maimed if the thing let go. Scram's posts partly show why a person should not fire 8mm Carcanos. Jimmy Earl is merely the poster child for not doing so.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by - Hambone on 12/21/2003 11:29:31 AM
Carcano
Moderator Italian Weapons Forum
Germany
1040 Posts
Posted - 12/21/2003 : 11:29:16 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Hambone
If I am in error here
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, you are. But even an erroneous and ignorant posting (like yours) has its merits. For example, it can serve to point out the intrinsic drawback of the 8mm conversion (which I have often written about and underlined here), and also its practical disadvantages in use.
While the Carcano was constructed and designed for a higher pressure than the German 7,92mm "S" service ammo - a fact which you are blissfully unaware of -, it must be kept in mind that this applies to the original receiver, not to the version with somewhat weakened locking lug recesses. That is why we usually recommend to use US commercial 8mm Mauser ammo or mild handloads, instead of surplus - better safe than sorry.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alexander Eichener
Email: [email protected]
Carcano Website: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by - Carcano on 12/21/2003 11:30:37 AM
Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut
2647 Posts
Posted - 12/21/2003 : 12:10:16 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alexander, I am not "blissfully unaware" of that fact at all. I am very aware that it has nothing whatsoever to do with the instant discussion, so why address it? Read my post again. What I said was "t was NOT designed to fire 8mm. And unlike the 7.35 chambering, not a whole lot of thought and workmanship went into the 8mm conversions." Was it designed to fire the 8mm? Nope. Was the receiver manufactured and engineered, from a pressure standpoint, to accomodate the 8mm? Nope. Is the 8x57S cartridge dimensionally quite different than the 6.5 and 7.35 Carcano? Yep. So, as an educated man you should know that your statement that the Carcano receiver was designed to handle HIGHER pressure than the 8mm is irrelevant to this inquiry. Your comment is pure red herring to this discussion. So, my question to you is this: The Carcano receiver was designed to handle higher pressures than the 8mm. Now, lets grind out the receiver and alter it to chamber an 8mm round, as depicted by Scram. Is it still the same receiver design that would handle the higher pressure? So, what does your comment about higher pressure have to do with a Carcano modified to fire 8mm? I'd like to hear it as maybe I'll learn something new that firearms designers and manufacturers have universally agreed with me on since the first receiver was made. Hopefully, I don't need to explain dimensional tolerances, psi and C.U.P. tolerance, and stress factors which don't stay the same after you grind away the inside of a receiver, along with the different pressure curves of various types of ammunition, bullet weights, burn rates, etc.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dub
Gunboards Premium Member
107 Posts
Posted - 12/21/2003 : 12:42:48 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Receiver alterations and pressure ratings aside - Is there any record of any firing use of these rifles with any military force?
Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut
2647 Posts
Posted - 12/21/2003 : 1:05:21 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nope. The only 8mm Carcano's that can be definitely connected to any military are those German WW2 H&K WaA proofed, single shot conversions with electro pencilled matching bolts. These are Volkssturm, last ditch, weapons. The Volkssturm was issued anything that went bang and launched a projectile at that time. There is mention of an 8mm Fucile Russ (sic) in old archives, but that could simply mean issue of the Kar.98k or other 8mm to Italian troops serving on the Eastern Front. I think we would see historical reports of the massacre of Italian troops armed with single shot 8mm conversions if those were in fact issued. Care to address this Alexander as you are more informed than me on this subject?
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Dub
Receiver alterations and pressure ratings aside - Is there any record of any firing use of these rifles with any military force?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut
2647 Posts
Posted - 12/21/2003 : 1:25:12 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And here you go Carcano. I hope this pic eliminates your need to raise the Carcano receiver pressure matter in re 8mm and refer to me as "ignorant" and "meritless" for refusing to consider your Carcano pressure sound bite. Standard issue 1939 date 7.35 Carcano on the left, 7.92 1940 date German on the right. Note that the shadowing does not clearly show that the 8mm casing and projectile are noticeably larger in diameter as well. However, the correct comparison to your flawed analysis would be 6.5 Carcano to 8mm, and the visible (and functional) difference is more extreme. Anybody want to take bets on whether boring a receiver designed for 6.5mm to 8mm changes the strength of a receiver re psi and cup tolerance? Yep, the 6.5 and 7.35 both generate about 40-50,000 psi (depending on the round and measuring device). The 8x57 generates 35-50,000 psi, again depending on the round and measuring device. Reaming the Carcano receiver to take an 8x57 round pushes said receiver to its limits of safe structural modification. Ask Dick Hobbs. Now, add the prospect of heavy loaded 8mm MG ammunition, proof rounds, or unstable surplus, and you may lose that margin of pressure safety built the receiver design The Carcano receiver is quite strong, but not trimmed out to digest an 8mm, as shown by the pictures here.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by - Hambone on 12/21/2003 2:16:02 PM
mauserdad
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
USA
2983 Posts
Posted - 12/21/2003 : 8:56:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I fired 10rds of 8mm surplus (not Turk) through my Springfield Sporter Carcano using a modified clip I made.I did check the headspace and it was good.I was aprehensive with each shot and held the rifle away from me.Kicked like a mule.Looking back on it now I think Hambones comments has some merit.I have to many other safe rifles to have fun with.My curiosity with that rifle has been satisfied and it now sets in the rack.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NRA Life Member
John 3:16&17
Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut
2647 Posts
Posted - 12/21/2003 : 9:08:13 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mauserdad, you were 5 rounds smarter than me as I fired 15 through mine before I got the picture, which wasn't pretty or accurate. Having to use my Dewey rod every other round to knock out the empties didn't impress me, nor did 8-10 moa, nor did the pain in my shoulder. This thing is a curousity only. Had it not been so, they would have been used in a capacity other than last ditch Volkssturm single shot and we wouldn't be scratching our heads trying to determine who used them and when. By comparison, the 7.35 is not a bad round, with the ballistics of about a .30-30 if I'm not mistaken. The 8mm is NOT a .30-30, but more in league with a .308 or .30 M2. The Carcano has no business bored out for an 8mm.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by mauserdad
I fired 10rds of 8mm surplus (not Turk) through my Springfield Sporter Carcano using a modified clip I madeI did check the headspace and it was good.I was aprehensive with each shot and held the rifle away from meKicked like a mule.Looking back on it now I think Hambones comments has some merit.I have to many other safe rifles to have fun with.My curiosity with that rifle has been satisfied and it now sets in the rack.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carcano
Moderator Italian Weapons Forum
Germany
1040 Posts
Posted - 12/22/2003 : 03:56:04 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quoting an earlier posting from Bill Davis:
FWIW I tried to blow up an 8MM Carcano with bad headspace, I filled 2 cases with Red Dot pistol powder, and crammed a huge 8MM Lebel bullet on top of the whole mess. The gun jumped about 3 feet in the air, tire and all (I tied it to a "donut"-type spare tire), the cases blew out and totally filled the chamber, and had to be driven out. After all that, it still fired regular 8MM with no problems, or swelling brass, or anything like that. (I went ahead and fired another 20 rounds of regular 8MM-by remote-just to see if it had any effect on the rifle, none that was apparent). I then "retired" the rifle "for the good of the service" (!!).
--
Bill Davis
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alexander Eichener
Email: [email protected]
Carcano Website: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by - Carcano on 12/22/2003 04:02:55 AM
Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut
2647 Posts
Posted - 12/22/2003 : 08:24:19 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm sorry, but I cannot use Bill Davis' single, informal, pressure test to make me feel comfortable firing a whole range of converted rifles about which we can only postulate as to origin and manufacture. The Carcano action is strong as designed and manufactured. Who, what, when, where, and how much metal was removed in the conversion to 8mm (a cartridge for which it was not designed) is troubling. My negative experience firing one, and observations, cause me to advise against firing them. I'm sure if I hit a tree going 40 mph my airbags would always deploy. But I don't test that theory as a) testing it isn't fun, and b) the downside to an instance of nondeployment is bad. Same with shooting the 8mm Carcano. I take great issue with Carcano referring to me as "ignorant" and this position as "meritless". Such comments are unnecessary, especially in light of the obvious logic backing my position. Carcano, you and your adherents have a great time firing your 8mm Carcanos. I'll be firing my 8mm too, but it will be a Kar.98k, which was designed to fire that calibre. As an aside, thanks to Bill for doing that test. Happy holidays ya'll
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Carcano
Quoting an earlier posting from Bill Davis:
FWIW I tried to blow up an 8MM Carcano with bad headspace, I filled 2 cases with Red Dot pistol powder, and crammed a huge 8MM Lebel bullet on top of the whole mess. The gun jumped about 3 feet in the air, tire and all (I tied it to a "donut"-type spare tire), the cases blew out and totally filled the chamber, and had to be driven out. After all that, it still fired regular 8MM with no problems, or swelling brass, or anything like that. (I went ahead and fired another 20 rounds of regular 8MM-by remote-just to see if it had any effect on the rifle, none that was apparent). I then "retired" the rifle "for the good of the service" (!!).
--
Bill Davis
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by - Hambone on 12/22/2003 2:16:59 PM
Dub
Gunboards Premium Member
107 Posts
Posted - 12/22/2003 : 1:52:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It seems that potential military users also came to the conclusion of not shooting them. I have seem a number of them beat to pieces on the outside, very good on the inside. It seems that former users did everything they could with them except shoot them.
scram
Starting Member
7 Posts
Posted - 12/23/2003 : 6:44:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Personally, I have much bigger fish to fry. This particular 8mm carcano is a curiosity to me. I do not plan on shooting mine any time soon I have PLENTY of other 8mm's and Carcanos that haven't shot. This one is last in line. I think I'd probably look into shooting my Vetterli before shooting this rifle.
Bill Davis
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
1590 Posts
Posted - 12/25/2003 : 5:05:27 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The one I have now I never shoot. Mine is like Hambone's, won't extract, can't hit a barn, etc. I didn't mean to make my blow-up test look like I was saying "You can't hurt these things", just "it probably won't kill you" which is debatable. I am more leery of them (the 8MMs) now than I ever was. Another thing that convinced me was checking headspace & finding it bad on 3 different rifles. This is one conversion that just didn't "take", and I'm glad I have a representative specimen, but I'm not going to shoot it anymore. I have about 6 others in 6.5 and 7.35 to shoot, and ACCURATE 8MM rifles, so I gave up on this turkey a long time ago (after tweaking it for 2 weeks to get it to feed #[email protected]!). If I ever get back to reloading I'll make up some super-mild loads & see if it extracts.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Davis
Carcano
Moderator Italian Weapons Forum
Germany
1040 Posts
Posted - 12/25/2003 : 6:13:17 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Grin*
Dear Grinch, ugh, I mean dear Bill, by my quotation I did not really intend to cite you as the crown witness for the brilliance and outstanding quality of the 8mm conversions.
Just as a rebuttal against the "these are so dangerous" myth.
Warm regards,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alexander Eichener
Email: [email protected]
Carcano Website: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano
Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut
2647 Posts
Posted - 12/26/2003 : 09:54:32 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The myth is not that they are "so dangerous". The reality is that they are NOT safe to shoot in an 8mm chambering. I think Bill's headspace observations and shooting experiences, which were identical to mine, indicate serious problems. Another fact is that this conversion pushes the structural limits of the Carcano action, EVEN IF DONE CORRECTLY. You may find my Jimmy Earl humor in bad taste, but it has a practical safety reminder built into it. Alexander, surely you don't advocate or even condone the firing of these things. And if you don't, then my position cannot be "ignorant" or "meritless". There are too many perfectly good, accurate, fun to shoot, well designed milsurps out there to take chances with one of these little beasts. Again, Bill, a big thanks to you for taking the time to conduct destructive testing on your 8mm TS and reporting the results. We can all sit around speculating and what-iffing, but this is where good info comes from. Didn't you do the same thing with an MN at one time? Someone did and found the action like a tank.
cheers, Hambone
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Carcano
*Grin*
Dear Grinch, ugh, I mean dear Bill, by my quotation I did not really intend to cite you as the crown witness for the brilliance and outstanding quality of the 8mm conversions.
Just as a rebuttal against the "these are so dangerous" myth.
Warm regards,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carcano
Moderator Italian Weapons Forum
Germany
1040 Posts
Posted - 12/26/2003 : 10:33:47 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The headspace observation and the sometimes difficult extraction (due to rough maching of the chambers and nothing else) have been described in Dick Hobbs' book and (on the second account) by myself, too. Include the unpleasant recoil (due to the curved, small buttplate) and you have good reasons not to shoot such a gun regularly. Furtheron, the lowered limits of structural integrity suggest that one limit oneself to mild loads, and that one check headspace regularly.
The rest is exaggeration. And the persistent adjective "meritless" is an invention of Hambone's fanciful fantasy (misled here as well as in other statements), for I have stated the exact contrary, as a brief look upwards corroborates; I did expressedly acknowledge the merit of the objection, even though it be unsound in its exaggeration.
But reading comprehension is not given to everybody in equal measure, especially not when it's interfering with an ideological crusade.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alexander Eichener
Email: [email protected]
Carcano Website: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano
Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut
2647 Posts
Posted - 12/26/2003 : 10:52:25 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, OK, "erroneous" and "ignorant". "Ignorant" is insulting enough, especially in light of what I am advocating: Do not fire 8mm Carcano conversions as they are unsafe. Carcano, now you have watered down your position to include an admission that structural integrity is compromised in these carbines (I assume I am no longer "ignorant" to this regard) and that one should "use mild loads" and "check headspace regularly" when firing an 8mm Carcano conversion. That's a tad scary to me as what is a "mild load" and "regularly" and why must I do this? Are you aware of any fatalities caused by milsurp rifle failures? I am. I fail to see any exaggeration in proclaiming an 8mm Carcano dangerous.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carcano
Moderator Italian Weapons Forum
Germany
1040 Posts
Posted - 12/26/2003 : 10:58:53 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Hambone
Oh, OK, "erroneous" and "ignorant". "Ignorant" is insulting enough, especially in light of what I am advocating: Do not fire 8mm Carcano conversions as they are unsafe. Carcano, now you have watered down your position
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, not really "now" .
I have written so, and have cautioned so constantly, long before you even were aware of these guns; be it on rec.guns, on ParallaxBill's boardsor here. Indeed, the whole thread shows a gradual (and commendable) learning curve of yours, and I am glad about this. This is one of the main and most valuable functions of gunboards: sharing of information (and of opinion), and learning.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alexander Eichener
Email: [email protected]
Carcano Website: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano
Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut
2647 Posts
Posted - 12/26/2003 : 1:52:26 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alexander, respectfully what this shows is you and I misunderstanding each other. Perhaps as a result of my crude humor and use of an 8mm Carcano as the subject of same (vice an M1903 low number, etc.) you assumed my knowledge on the subject spawned from Big Bob with the Endcap. It doesn't. I always look to steepen my learning curve, and both you and Bill have helped, especially with the enlightenment of Bills' destructive testing and greater respect for the Carcano action. However, I have always understood the following, which were not part of any "learning curve": 1) The Carcano action is strong, as designed, and redesigned for 7.35. 2) The psi generated by the 6.5 and 7.35 are almost identical, and the rounds are similar. 3) The structural integrity (strength) of the Carcano action is compromised to the maximum degree of suitability by removing metal from it to digest a 7.92 round, which substantial modifications were unnecessary with the 7.35 4) 8mm conversions vary in quality and workmanship and the history behind same is nebulous at best (I'm more concerned about my safety than the Eqyptian or Syrian gubments are about that of their civil defense forces). I've been aware of these rifles and the same arguments concerning their background since about 1985. I didn't fire them then, nor do I fire them now. I respect your specialized knowledge in this field, but please don't dismiss differing opinions as "ignorant". Such a position is not good for anyone's learning curve
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carcano
Moderator Italian Weapons Forum
Germany
1040 Posts
Posted - 12/27/2003 : 10:47:16 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Hambone:
I have just come back from the range (all walking, with rifle and ammo bag, mind you: this is not Car Country
), and have test fired my own 8mm carbine again. Altogether 25 rounds, all of European origin (Igman 170 grains SP, Geco 185 grains SP, Prvi Partizan 195 grains SP, FNM 198 grains FMJ). The results were astonishing (with regard to pressure signs and ease of difficulty of extraction, as well as to accuracy). The test showed that the carbine's accuracy was extremely ammo dependent: from rather GOOD (the top-notch RWS-made Geco Target) to truly dismal (Portuguese FNM Target). This may partially explain Hambone's bad experience.
Also, my shooting technique is bad. With a short gun like this, proper posture, exactly repeatable bench resting, and equal shoulder pressure are very important, such as not to induce vertical stringing (which I did). In addition, shots began to wander when the barrel became hot (tight fit at the front band)
Astonishingly, recoil was very tolerable in all cases (and I am a recoil sensitive person, rather slim built), and proved indeed to be much better than my 12/70 shotgun. I admit using a PAST recoil pad, though, which certainly helped; but the same I use when firing the shotgun. I have found this gun actually more pleasant to shoot than a couple of other milsurp rifles which I own. Believe it or not, but it's true
.I shall soon post a more extensive range report.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alexander Eichener
Email: [email protected]
Carcano Website: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by - Carcano on 12/27/2003 5:07:31 PM
FGD135
Gunboards Super Premium Member
375 Posts
Posted - 12/27/2003 : 9:33:55 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps those 8mm Carcanos could be attractive table lamps if properly mounted and shaded. One idea would be to insert some kind of hollow post into the muzzle and thread the power cord down the bore, hiding it from view. The lamp socket could be threaded onto the top of this post and maybe the cord could then go out through the clip hole in the bottom of the magazine well Wouldn't it be fun if you could rig a switch to turn the lamp on/off by either pulling the trigger or working the bolt? Not fully opening the bolt, of course, but just lifting the handle...
Bud
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
USA
2691 Posts
Posted - 12/28/2003 : 12:17:26 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can see that since Hambone is denegrating 8mm Carcanos, this leads me to believe he is actually hoarding them(like his tirades on fake SS K98 rifles which reduces buyer competition, but he seems to have a rather large collection of such rifles), so I a beginning to wonder just how great these 8mm Carcanos are!
Maybe I should have me a few for shooting regularly with light surplus ammunition and reloads, cause surely I now suspect I am missing out on something, haha.
Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut
2647 Posts
Posted - 12/28/2003 : 01:23:57 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bud, as far as fake SS Kar.98k's, you guys can have them all as I am not in competition for those. Please, don't let my denigration of same stop anyone from buying fakes or shooting 8mm Carcanos. Alexander, you had a far better shooting experience than I ever did. I am not really recoil sensitive and I did not enjoy shooting my 8mm TS. I'm fond of it as a curio, not a shooter. FGD, if you find a way to use the bolt as an on/off switch, please post up as you may have found a new market use for those Arab imported 8mm conversions
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Bud
I can see that since Hambone is denegrating 8mm Carcanos, this leads me to believe he is actually hoarding them(like his tirades on fake SS K98 rifles which reduces buyer competition, but he seems to have a rather large collection of such rifles), so I a beginning to wonder just how great these 8mm Carcanos are!
Maybe I should have me a few for shooting regularly with light surplus ammunition and reloads, cause surely I now suspect I am missing out on something, haha.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bud
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
USA
2691 Posts
Posted - 12/28/2003 : 06:41:41 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Okay, who is going to be the first one to convert one to 30-06!
Franchi
Gunboards Super Premium Member
USA
368 Posts
Posted - 12/31/2003 : 12:53:44 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't want to start this discussion all over again but would like to add. I never looked at the locking lug cut outs on the 8mm that close before, they have been reduced quite a bit, but I would think the Italians would have tested these 8mm carbines before going into production (in my opinion the Italians did manufacture many of these 8mm carbines before 1945, they are not all post-war)
Could one reason the German "HK" 8mm conversions are single shot is so they wouldn't have to weaken the receiver?
I have only shot one of my 8mm carbines (non-import 1941 R.E. Terni) with military surplus, I had no extraction problems, but in the future I think I would only use lighter re-loads as suggested above.
David Franchi
Carcano
Moderator Italian Weapons Forum
Germany
1040 Posts
Posted - 12/31/2003 : 1:11:12 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I had no extraction problems in one of my guns with Prvi Partizan, Geco Target and Igman, but severe ones with FNM.
As to David's question: a single-shot conversion is just the cheapest, fastest and most practical measures. One needs neither special clips, nor a reworked bolt face, nor receiver cuts. These considerations are practical and economical rather than safety-related, I believe.
Regards,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alexander Eichener
Email: [email protected]
Carcano Website: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano
Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut
2647 Posts
Posted - 01/01/2004 : 12:46:37 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with the analysis re Italian v. German conversions. It would be nice if our Italian friends could unearth documentation on the Italian 8mm TS conversions (i.e., why, when, who). Happy new year.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Carcano
I had no extraction problems in one of my guns with Prvi Partizan, Geco Target and Igman, but severe ones with FNM.
As to David's question: a single-shot conversion is just the cheapest, fastest and most practical measures. One needs neither special clips, nor a reworked bolt face, nor receiver cuts. These considerations are practical and economical rather than safety-related, I believe.
Regards,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anthony
Gunboards Super Premium Member
330 Posts
Posted - 03/15/2004 : 8:44:59 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To spice up this thread! What about the small number of Italian made Japanese Type I in 6.5 Arasaka converted to 8MM Mauser for use by Italian/German forces after delivery to Japan was halted and guns in Italian-German stocks were converted/issued?
I know of one example, but can't get pictures from the bloak!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anthony Fortino
Carcano
Moderator Italian Weapons Forum
Germany
1040 Posts
Posted - 03/16/2004 : 2:24:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by rbjr
While looking for a long lost NRA publication on British Enfields I came across a magazine I had forgotten, "Guns & Ammo's Complete Guide to Surplus Firearms" copyright 1987. The author of the Carcano chapter was Harris Bierman.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
An ignorant in many respects. See the brief characterization of his article in the Carcano bibliography.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is there some new info
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes.
Read
this
board.
It's all there
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alexander Eichener
Email: [email protected]
Carcano Website: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano
Franchi
Gunboards Super Premium Member
USA
368 Posts
Posted - 03/16/2004 : 7:12:12 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anthony, Have you seen this 8mm Type I?
If not it is probably a late war M41 Italian long rifle which the owner thinks is a "Type I" because late war M41 rifles don't have any manufacturer name on the barrel/receiver so they kind of look like a Type I (no markings). I doubt it is an 8mm German "HK" conversion of the Type I, it could be a Chinese 8mm conversion.
David Franchi
Bill Davis
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
1590 Posts
Posted - 03/17/2004 : 03:47:03 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I know I've posted this before, but there was a guy back in the 60's who converted 7.35's to .308 (I think he charged $5). I'm sure he didn't rebore them, so he just counted on that 308 bullet to swage down to .299 a la 88 Commission rifle (.323 to .318) I wonder how many-if any-of these converted rifles experienced "problems", maybe conributing to the blow-up stories we hear so much about-and see so LITTLE..? I remember reading somewhere that the 8MM has a very rapid pressure let-off, compared with the .308 which was described as more of a "sustained push" where the pressure level remains high for a longer period (measurable in microseconds probably), which is why 8MM conversions are allegedly safer than .308 conversions, bore diameters aside!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Davis
tbaus
Gunboards Premium Member
USA
101 Posts
Posted - 03/18/2004 : 11:45:13 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with Carcano I have shot 3 of the 5 I own, with commercial ammo. I have not seen any signs of overpressure. You guys who say this gun is punishing obviously have never shot a 300 H&H. With a proper hold the recoil is not bad. Other than shooting a foot to a foot and a half high at 100 yards, my three rifles group Ok so far. For me it is the sights. I don't like the proper hold of burying the front sight and my eyes don't see the slit in the rear sight too well. I am thinking of scoping one of these just to put the BS about accuracy and safety to bed. The actions in these are strong. The question of wartime use. Yeah, they were used by Israel in real wartime use. You guys who say show me this or show me that. Show me ONE case of a catastropic failure of an 8mm Carcano, not hearsay but actual proof. I guess the upside to this is if enough people buy the cock and bull about the 8mm Carcano being weak and inaccurate, I will get to buy more of them cheap.. Good shootin'...
Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut
2647 Posts
Posted - 03/23/2004 : 10:36:15 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh my. I just stopped by to visit my favorite thread Tbaus, are you joking? I'm quite sure with tweeking, handloads, drilling, tapping, experimentation, and a little custom work, you could make this sow's ear into a pistachio nut bag, but good grief. There is nothing in my safe worse than my 8mm T.S. However, it is one of my favorite Carcanos because it sucks and is mysterious.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by tbaus
I agree with Carcano. I have shot 3 of the 5 I own, with commercial ammo. I have not seen any signs of overpressure. You guys who say this gun is punishing obviously have never shot a 300 H&H. With a proper hold the recoil is not bad. Other than shooting a foot to a foot and a half high at 100 yards, my three rifles group Ok so far. For me it is the sights. I don't like the proper hold of burying the front sight and my eyes don't see the slit in the rear sight too well. I am thinking of scoping one of these just to put the BS about accuracy and safety to bed The actions in these are strong. The question of wartime use. Yeah, they were used by Israel in real wartime use. You guys who say show me this or show me that. Show me ONE case of a catastropic failure of an 8mm Carcano, not hearsay but actual proof. I guess the upside to this is if enough people buy the cock and bull about the 8mm Carcano being weak and inaccurate, I will get to buy more of them cheap.. Good shootin'...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anthony
Gunboards Super Premium Member
330 Posts
Posted - 03/27/2004 : 3:50:24 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I recollect that Springfield Sporters was selling them for $65.00 bucks and coundn't give them away a couple years back, as most collectors thought it would be insane to shoot them unless you were into pain, (YOUR OWN)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anthony Fortino
tbaus
Gunboards Premium Member
USA
101 Posts
Posted - 03/27/2004 : 3:50:28 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No Siree, Hambone. I am not joking... On a windy crappy day I shot 3 of these 8mm Carcano's at 100 meters. All three of them grouped. Now the groups mind you were high and left, and yes I did not use the proper Carcano sight hold. I am looking right now on Ebay for a cheap side mount scope mount. The scope will make up for my inability to see the rear sight. I will "ruin" one of these guns for the test. If for no other reason, to be the devils advocate. I LOVE a challenge. Safe to shoot. Mine are. I can't speak for yours. Kicking.. Nothing like the 7mm Magnum and .300 H&H I was weaned on 33 years ago. These guns were used after world war II in God only knows how many skirmishes and conflicts. One of mine has a brass stock disk with Arabic numbers I have experienced no hard to open bolt, other than one caused by chamber roughness. e.g. the bolt lifts fine to the top of it's stroke and then is hard to pull back as the shell begins to extract...indicating NOTHING to do with lugs, but rather everything to do with chamber roughness. I am shooting commercially loaded hunting rounds. But, if you don't mind, PLEASE keep telling everyone not to shoot these and that they are dangerous. That will help keep the price s low for a longer period of time... like lemmings to the sea...
Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut
2647 Posts
Posted - 03/31/2004 : 4:04:20 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't know that my comments would matter re the Carcano market and I don't know of anyone except you that buys 8mm Carcanos for plinking. Nope, none of this will affect the Carcano market. In fact, I don't know that my Carcanos have kept up with inflation. If they were $19.95 in 1962 and can be had for $49.95 now (40+ years later), then even without resorting to an amortization table I can tell you that Carcano's have decreased in value and this trend will likely continue unless the CPI and discount rate stays in the negatives. If you cornered the market on 8mm converted Carcanos I don't believe many would notice. You're a better man than me because I don't enjoy the challenge of spending alot of time trying to make something medicre (at best) work. I would rather have something that works and get proficient in it as opposed to backing up However, it is cool that you take the time to work up loads and report on these things. How would you like to have one in a war when everyone else had M1 Garands, Kar.98k's, etc.?
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by tbaus
No Siree, Hambone. I am not joking... On a windy crappy day I shot 3 of these 8mm Carcano's at 100 meters. All three of them grouped. Now the groups mind you were high and left, and yes I did not use the proper Carcano sight hold. I am looking right now on Ebay for a cheap side mount scope mount. The scope will make up for my inability to see the rear sight. I will "ruin" one of these guns for the test. If for no other reason, to be the devils advocate. I LOVE a challenge. Safe to shoot. Mine are. I can't speak for yours. Kicking.. Nothing like the 7mm Magnum and .300 H&H I was weaned on 33 years ago These guns were used after world war II in God only knows how many skirmishes and conflicts. One of mine has a brass stock disk with Arabic numbers. I have experienced no hard to open bolt, other than one caused by chamber roughness. e.g. the bolt lifts fine to the top of it's stroke and then is hard to pull back as the shell begins to extract...indicating NOTHING to do with lugs, but rather everything to do with chamber roughness. I am shooting commercially loaded hunting rounds. But, if you don't mind, PLEASE keep telling everyone not to shoot these and that they are dangerous. That will help keep the price s low for a longer period of time... like lemmings to the sea...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
tbaus
Gunboards Premium Member
USA
101 Posts
Posted - 03/31/2004 : 9:28:37 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, I agree if you bought one in 1962 for $19.95 then you did not make any money. To that end, I remember my Dad buying various mausers covered in cosmolene in the late 60's for less than $15 each. It was not possible to predict which of those cosmolene covered relics would be worth "something" in the future. Where you and I disagree is in the rifle being mediocre (at best)... I think they are a very neat, simple, effective design with great metalurgy... and perhaps something else you are missing is the slow rise in Carcano prices that started about a year ago. I am glad I bought my Swedish mausers before they doubled and tripled in price! I buy guns to shoot as well as collect. If I can't shoot em, I don't collect em... I will enjoy the challenge of proving ( not MAKING anything) these neat little rifles shoot just fine... BTW, I wouldn't want to be in a war with Kar.98k's etc. when everyone else had thermo-nuclear devices either! Keep your Carcano bashing coming!
Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut
2647 Posts
Posted - 04/01/2004 : 11:36:45 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I like Carcanos. I own seven. I did own fifteen at one time. I like them as collectables as the shooting experience is.....(yawn), nothing like shooting a Kar.98k, M1, or Enfield. Bashing? Nope, just the truth. They work fine and do what they are generally supposed to do. However, compared to every other service rifle fielded by every country in the 1940's, the Carcano, IMHO, was the worst by far. If we compare a Carcano as a weapon system to nothing, then it works great. If we compare it to everything else used at the time (WW2), then it is mediocre at best. Would you choose to carry one over any of the other rifles I mentioned? What is it better than? Again, I collect Carcanos because I LIKE THEM. Italy was a poor country that sustained unbelievable losses in WW1. They were doing the best they could and had no business entering WW2 when they did. And boy, if we knew in the 1960's what we know now re prices !
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by tbaus
Yeah, I agree if you bought one in 1962 for $19.95 then you did not make any money. To that end, I remember my Dad buying various mausers covered in cosmolene in the late 60's for less than $15 each. It was not possible to predict which of those cosmolene covered relics would be worth "something" in the future. Where you and I disagree is in the rifle being mediocre (at best).. I think they are a very neat, simple, effective design with great metalurgy... and perhaps something else you are missing is the slow rise in Carcano prices that started about a year ago. I am glad I bought my Swedish mausers before they doubled and tripled in price! I buy guns to shoot as well as collect. If I can't shoot em, I don't collect em... I will enjoy the challenge of proving ( not MAKING anything) these neat little rifles shoot just fine... BTW, I wouldn't want to be in a war with Kar.98k's etc. when everyone else had thermo-nuclear devices either! Keep your Carcano bashing coming!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anthony
Gunboards Super Premium Member
330 Posts
Posted - 04/02/2004 : 12:33:57 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hambone, I have found one carcano that has value and is going up in price, shoots very well, and has become popular with Japanese collectors. I speak of the Japanese Type I in 6.5 arisaka.
The only carcano ( Sort of but has many Arisaka features) that I own.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anthony Fortino
Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut
2647 Posts
Posted - 04/02/2004 : 08:46:13 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I tend to agree on the Type I. Ten years ago they were at about $125-150 for a nice example. Now, they are at about $250-300 for a nice example. However, I think the reason for the bump in value of the Type I is cross-over appeal to Japanese collectors. The German proofed Carcanos bring a premium for the same reason for German collectors. Both Arisakas and German WW2 service rifles have increased in value exponentially in the last 20 years. Note that a nice run of the mill, mummed, matching Jap. Type 99 would bring about $125-150 ten years ago. Now, they routinely bring $400-500+ if really nice.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Anthony
Hambone, I have found one carcano that has value and is going up in price, shoots very well, and has become popular with Japanese collectors. I speak of the Japanese Type I in 6.5 arisaka.
The only carcano ( Sort of but has many Arisaka features) that I own.
-------------------------------
http://old.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13377
