[Kyrie]

I am certainly no expert on the C96 or 7.63x25 ammunition I do however shoot my share of 7.62x25 in my Tokorev pistols. The point I should like to make is there seems to be a segment of the shooting public that is devoted to attempting to fire ammunition in a firearm for which it was not designed. Why this is I do not know, human nature? Often I read on forums from the person who insist it is safe to shoot .38 Super and 9mm Luger in pistols chambered for 9mm Largo (Bergman) and other such comparisons ....I contend the weapon should receive the ammunition for which it is chambered and barring a catastrophic event where experimentation is survival, the correct ammo should only be used. I value my fingers and firearms so I will continue my course of using proper calibers for a given application.

Well said.

Back in the day I had a fellow bring in an Astra Model 300, chambered for the .380 ACP, for repair. He said he fired it once and it locked up on him. I could see the slide was partially retracted and part of a brass case was visible. I made sure the visible case was a fired case and took it in back. When I finally got it open and the case out I discovered the case was from a round of 9 mm Luger ammunition. When I went back out and asked how he managed to chamber a 9 mm Luger cartridge in a .380 chamber he replied, with a perfectly straight face, "with a hammer".

Some people just expand my sense of the possible.

Kyrie

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[1914mauser]

I have personally inspected two broomhandles that were damaged using Tokarev ammo. One was fixable; the other needed parts which are getting much harder to find. Maybe it's just me, but I would never shoot Tokarev ammo in a broomhandle Mauser. 30 Mauser is still available, and yes, it is pricey. Better safe than sorry.

Ken

I ISSUE THIS CHALLENGE TO ANYONE WHO HAS REPLIED OR READ THIS THREAD. Ken, by your statement you've seen damaged C96s. But can anyone show proof that a shooter has been injured by a C96 (BOLT IN THE HEAD, EYE, whatever). I think this is an urban legend that is being perpetuated by those who have heard it, remembered it and regurgitated it every time the topic of Tokarev ammo being used in a C96 is posted. So if you haven't had it happen to you or you don't have pictures of a accident involving a C96 where a bolt injured the shooter in the face, STOP repeating this fantasy story.

Regards,

 

[MGMike]

I ISSUE THIS CHALLENGE TO ANYONE WHO HAS REPLIED OR READ THIS THREAD. Ken, by your statement you've seen damaged C96s. But can anyone show proof that a shooter has been injured by a C96 (BOLT IN THE HEAD, EYE, whatever). I think this is an urban legend that is being perpetuated by those who have heard it, remembered it and regurgitated it every time the topic of Tokarev ammo being used in a C96 is posted. So if you haven't had it happen to you or you don't have pictures of a accident involving a C96 where a bolt injured the shooter in the face, STOP repeat this fantasy story.

Regards,

This 7.63 Mauser vs. 7.62x25 Tokarev issue is a perennial, and the same authoritative old wives' tales and same recitations of unreliable ballistic figures from secondary sources continue to shed much heat but not much light on the subject.

The importation years ago of some Czech 7.62x25 that was specially loaded 20% hotter for submachine guns, and that was not readily distinguishable from ordinary Russian or Yugo ball ammo has bollixed up subsequent discussion.

The fact of the matter is that you really have no idea whether any particular 7.62x25 cartridges render significantly higher pressure than 7.63 Mauser without actually testing it. Pull, measure and weigh some bullets, then fire a few shots from that lot through a chronograph with the gun you adjudge to be the strongest. Then do the same with whatever 7.63 Mauser ammunition is your alternate choice, and compare the results. It's the only way to know for sure.

There will be a few variables you can't easily account for, like bullet pull force and differences in precise chamber and case dimensions, that do affect pressure. But if the bullet weights and diameters are close, a chronograph comparison will be accurate enough to tell you if that ammo is safe to use.

The motto of H.P. White Laboratories, for several generations one of the most highly respected ballistics facilities in the world, was "One experiment is worth a thousand expert opinions."

M

 

[jonny c.]

And to add to the wisdom above........
Make sure you use standard European 7.63 from the 1930s-40s to test against, not weak American commercial loads.

 

[Kyrie]

--- snip ---

The importation years ago of some Czech 7.62x25 that was specially loaded 20% hotter for submachine guns, and that was not readily distinguishable from ordinary Russian or Yugo ball ammo has bollixed up subsequent discussion.

--- snip ---
M

I've been waiting for this myth to appear.

Usually cited as the "Czech M48 7.62x25" and "loaded "20% hotter" than Soviet Russian M30 ammunition. This one didn’t originate as an internet myth; you can find it in Ezall’s “Small Arms of the World”. It’s still not true. There never was a Czech M48 7.62x25 cartridge, Czech 7.62 mm Tokarev ammunition was not loaded to higher pressures, and Czech 7.62x25 ammunition is interchangeable with all the rest of Warsaw Pact countries 7.62 mm Tokarev ammunition.

Want more?

See and "Czech Firearms and Ammunition", by Dolinek, Karlicky, and Vacha.

The Czech M48 cartridge was a developmental 9x19 mm cartridge intended for use in the developmental pistol, designation CZ 482. The CZ 482, chambered for the M48 9x19 cartridge, was redesigned and re-designated the CZ 491, also chambered for the M48 9x19 cartridge.

At this point in time the Soviet Union applied significant pressure on the Czechs to drop the M48 9x19 cartridge and adopt the Soviet Russian standard 7.62x25, M30, Tokarev pistol cartridge as the Czech standard pistol/sub-machinegun cartridge.

The Czechs complied with the demands of the Soviets, redesigned the CZ 491 pistol to use the 7.62x25 M30 cartridge, and designated this pistol as the CZ 513. The CZ 513 was then adopted in 1952 as the standard Czech sidearm, under the military designation the “Vz 52”.

And that, gentlemen, is the developmental history of our VZ 52 pistols

Kyrie

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[jonny c.]

Just to add....I collect Tokarev boxes, packets, etc., in addition to the cartridges. I have at least 100 different packages and probably 1000+ different cartridge examples. Between my artifacts and files, I have never seen any primary reference to any pistol-only or SMG-only Tokarev ammo, all is made for both pistol and SMG use.

 

[1914mauser]

I think most of the malfunctions that damaged C96s were due to the condition of the pistol. In some cases involving Chinese made, repaired and refurbished C96s. Then blamed on "Hot ammunition". The large number of C96s imported from China in the 1970s, which for the most part showed heavy usage and poor care, are the prime suspects in my mind.


As far as written information, like the subject article, The perception of the reader may not be the intention of the author. It is very difficult to be precise in the content of written word in a way that meaning is correctly understood.


I greatly appreciate the members who have posted to dispel this myth. It is very difficult to prevent perpetuation of a myth once introduced. They are more likely to spread like vines.

Regards,

 

[MGMike]

...I collect Tokarev boxes, packets, etc., in addition to the cartridges. I have at least 100 different packages and probably 1000+ different cartridge examples. ...

On Czech boxes, packets, etc., what designation did the Czechs use?

M

 

[jonny c.]

Happen to have my box log close to hand.
Most of the Czech boxes have some variation or combination of: 7,62 - Ostrych Pistolovych Nabojov, Pistol, or Pi. Dummies have an added Sk, blanks have an added Cv, and proofs a Tor. No mention of any SMG-only use. That's a cross-section of 22 different box labels.

 

[Lyman1903]

The .30 mauser should be interchageable in the PPsh41. I'm assuming the Soviets were smart enough to make it to function with captured German and Finn ammo.
The Finns bought millions of rounds of .30 mauser from Germany in WWII, to use in SMGs designed for the Tok round.
So its interchangeable in some guns, or one way only, .30 Mauser, or 7.63x25 Mauser can be used in a 7.62x25 firearm, but not vice versa. I hope anyone with a nice broomhandle or Luger is savvy enough to know this, unlike the Guns writer.

luger in 30 mauser.....

not a thing,, 30 luger is different

several threads about it
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?92161-30-Mauser-vs-30-Luger

 

[feuerwerker]

in the beginning the 7,62 Tok was only a soviet made 7,63 Mauser loaded hotter than before, nothing more. this soviet factory standard became the red army "7.62 Tok" service ammo and decades later it end in the books as a cartridge but it will allways be a 7,63 Mauser loaded a little bit (but to much) hotter.
exactly the same way the 7,63 Mauser is the same as the 7.65x25 Borchardt but loaded hotter than before. apart from this all other dimensions on this cartrdges are only factory tolerance.

 

[shooterike]

I ISSUE THIS CHALLENGE TO ANYONE WHO HAS REPLIED OR READ THIS THREAD. Ken, by your statement you've seen damaged C96s. But can anyone show proof that a shooter has been injured by a C96 (BOLT IN THE HEAD, EYE, whatever). I think this is an urban legend that is being perpetuated by those who have heard it, remembered it and regurgitated it every time the topic of Tokarev ammo being used in a C96 is posted. So if you haven't had it happen to you or you don't have pictures of a accident involving a C96 where a bolt injured the shooter in the face, STOP repeating this fantasy story.

Regards,

Agreed! The Russian loading of a cartridge that is basically a 7.63mm Mauser round, is more potent. But, I have never encountered a C96 that has been destroyed or injured the operator. Most C96 problems with Russian ammo, can be cured with a stronger recoil spring. The C96 replacement recoil springs available in the USA are made with a smaller diameter wire (inch vs. metric) than the Germans originally used and do not resist sufficiently the rearward thrust of the Russian cartridge. Finding the correct diameter wire in the US is very difficult.

 

[jonny c.]

"in the beginning the 7,62 Tok was only a soviet made 7,63 Mauser loaded hotter than before"

"The Russian loading of a cartridge that is basically a 7.63mm Mauser round, is more potent"

Where did you guys get this info? Common wisdom, internet myth, actual documentation?

 

[jjk308 In Memoriam RIP]

"in the beginning the 7,62 Tok was only a soviet made 7,63 Mauser loaded hotter than before"

"The Russian loading of a cartridge that is basically a 7.63mm Mauser round, is more potent"

Where did you guys get this info? Common wisdom, internet myth, actual documentation?

The Mauser C96 was a popular alternative to the Nagant revolver in the Czarist and early Red Army. In 1929 The Red Army started work on a domestic pistol that was specified, initially, to be chambered for the 7.63×25mm Mauser. They chose a development of the Mauser round, the Model 1930 7.62 mm pistol cartridge, with almost the exact dimensions of the 7.63×25mm Mauser but substantially more power, and chambered the Tokarev pistols and subsequent SMGs for it.

 

[jonny c.]

"They chose a development of the Mauser round, the Model 1930 7.62 mm pistol cartridge, with almost the exact dimensions of the 7.63×25mm Mauser but substantially more power"

And I gotta ask......Where did this info come from???
The Soviets first began to produce 7.63 ammo for the many C96 pistols they had in stock. Why, pray tell, would they produce and issue a TT round that was dimensionally the same as the Mauser but potentially powerful enough to destroy the Mauser pistols???

 

[shooterike]

"in the beginning the 7,62 Tok was only a soviet made 7,63 Mauser loaded hotter than before"

"The Russian loading of a cartridge that is basically a 7.63mm Mauser round, is more potent"

Where did you guys get this info? Common wisdom, internet myth, actual documentation?

FSTC-CW-07-02-66, Small Arms Ammunition Identification Guide, page 45 lists "Fig 37. 7.62 x 25 Common names: .30 Mauser pistol, 7.62-mm Type P, 7.62-mm Type 50, & 7.63-mm Mauser pistol" as all being the same cartridge.

 

[jonny c.]

Ike, I agree with that. I was looking for documentation on the "loaded hotter", "more potent", and "substantially more power" statements.

 

[shooterike]

Ike, I agree with that. I was looking for documentation on the "loaded hotter", "more potent", and "substantially more power" statements.

From my personal experience I can say that the Russian variety of this cartridge is loaded hotter than the German variety. Somewhere along the line I was told that the "original" TT33 pistol cartridge was nothing more than a Russian duplicate of the original German cartridge. But the "Winter War" between the Soviets and Finland changed all that. The Russians got their butts kicked by the Fins and their Suomi submachineguns. This resulted in the adoption by the Russians of a similar weapon, the PPSh 41. The Russians were said to have upped the power of the TT33 cartridge as it was also to be used in the PPSh 41, in order to give it more range than the Finnish Soumi.

 

[Kyrie]

Ike, I agree with that. I was looking for documentation on the "loaded hotter", "more potent", and "substantially more power" statements.

I doubt there is any, since the .30 Mauser and .30 Tokarev cartridges are functionally interchangeable. Here's more fuel for the fire, from Jane's:

Jane’s “Ammunition Handbook”:

“7.62 x 25 mm

Synonym. 7.62 mm Tokarev; 7.62 Soviet pistol; Russian; 0.30 Mauser; 7.63 x 25mm

Armament
Tokarev TT33 automatic pistol; various obsolete Soviet sub-machine guns (PPD, PPSH, PPS); Chinese Type 85sub-machine gun and Type 80 pistol. Most pistols and steel sub-machine guns chambered for the 7.63 mm Mauser cartridge will probably operate satisfactorily with this round and vice versa.

Development
This cartridge actually began life as the 7.63 mm Mauser automatic pistol cartridge. It was taken into use by the Russian forces in the early 1900s and the pistol remained popular with the Bolshevik armies, one model being produced specifically for the Soviet As a result manufacture of the Mauser cartridge began in Russia, and when in due course the Tokarev automatic pistol was developed, it was designed around the Mauser cartridge. For manufacturing convenience the barrel of the Tokarev was 7.62 mm calibre, thus the Soviet cartridge lost its Mauser designation and became known as the 7.62 mm Tokarev. The dimensional differences between the Soviet round and the original Mauser specifications are minute and largely due to the manufacturing processes. It can therefore be expected that any weapon originally using the Mauser cartridge will work with the Soviet pattern and vice versa. (Emphasis mine – Kyrie) This cartridge has been manufactured in China and various countries of the former Warsaw Pact, but always to the Soviet specification. The Chinese pattern (below) is stated to be for the automatic pistols Type 54 sub-machine guns and Type 80 and for the Type 85 light sub-machinegun. Like the 7.63 x 25 mm cartridge from which derived, the 7.62 x 25 mm performs very well against 7.62 soft body armour and light metal, such as automobile bodies."

 

[jonny c.]

Yeah, Kyrie, after years of actually studying the rounds I'm convinced that they're totally interchangeable. Makes no sense to be otherwise. I think the problem is a combination of some crappy C96 imports from China, and the internet.

"The Russians were said to have upped the power of the TT33 cartridge as it was also to be used in the PPSh 41, in order to give it more range than the Finnish Soumi."
Never saw or heard this info anywhere, in any document. I think "were said..." goes a long way to nowhere.