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actually the weak link in the mauser is not the bolt stop. I've never seen any damage there that would make me concerned about a bolt in the eye. The weak spot is the lock block which is the internal part that all the trigger parts and the locking lugs fit onto. It is a machined piece that is a bit thin walled in the mid area where the locking lugs reside and abut. Overloading the gun creates more pressure on the lock which will in turn increase the pressure on the locking block. Since its a shock load it will cause cracking in the thinner sidewalls of the locking block where machine marks tend to hide and be stress risers. After a time the locking block will crack and perhaps separate which normally causes the trigger to no longer work protecting you from unlocked firing. Those Mauser brothers were pretty smart after all and didn't want dead customers. It is true that the bolt will come back a little harder with hotter ammo but the recoil spring tends to handle that pretty well and the bolt speed isn't that much higher. If you are concerned about your mausers look on the inside.....that lock block is the part that may bring you grief.

Frank
 

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For what it is worth I believe that .30 mauser ammo in the us when it was still made here was underloaded. It is likely that the yugo and italian loads are doing the same thing. But in any case the .30 mauser I believe is a little less powerful than the tokarev.

I have seen published figures claiming about 1400 ft per sec for the mauser. It is my understanding that the actual measured commercial loads are slower. The tokarev when measured can get close to 1500 ft per sec. The whole point of the mauser was high velocity and it was the velocity king of pistols until the .357 came upon the scene. The whole point of the mauser was its penetration and greater range than other pistol rounds.

I fired commercial mauser (About 1963), I think it was winchester loads in a WWII bring back tokarev. Worked perfectly.

American ammo companies like to download european ammo. The 8 mm mauser hunting loads for many years were downloaded to like a .303 or 30-40. I doubt that the deer hit with it knew the difference.
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
When I was stationed in Germany I had a c96. In the early 90's the only .30 Mauser I could get there was Fiocchi. I had a chronograph at the time and was stunned by the results when I fired the Fiocchi. The average velocity was 850 FPS. I couldn't believe it so I fired some Federal 230 ball out of my 1911 to see if the chronograph was working. The 230 ball flew at around 840 FPS. 850 FPS meant that with Fiocchi I was shooting the worlds largest .32 ACP pistol.

I'm really hinky about checking bolt stops, using ONLY .30 Mauser, and replacing springs in my Broomhandles as I shoot them a lot with the stocks attached. Having that bolt fly out six inches from your face would be no fun at all.
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
"Looks stronger"?? I hope you wear body armor and a welder's helmet when you conduct your experiments!

I have seen two broomhandles blown up by combloc Tok ammo.

As for "Duke" Venturino, he's always been a buffoon, but he seems to have gotten a lot worse since he ventured (pun intended) into the milsurp area.
Yeah, you are right about that. I recently read another of his doofus articles where he was shooting some WWII C&R pistols at a GI helmet to see if they would penetrate. He said something like he didn't fire a 9MM or a 7.62X25 Tokarev at the helmet as he "knew" they would both go through. He was probably correct about the 7.62X25 but NOT about the 9MM. When I was a kid a friend of mine and I tried popping a GI helmet. Neither factory 9MM, GI ball, nor a factory .38 Super FMJ would penetrate the helmet (the Super did put a helluva dent in it). "Duke" reminds me of Mikey on American Chopper-a big fat goofball
 

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With regards to Venturino claiming he meant the interchange between the 2 cartridges was pertaining to the ppsh-41. Regardless of what gun it is used in these are 2 seperate cartridges; yes very close dimensionely, but different with regards to their loadings, that's the part that that can be potentialy dangerous. Anyone these days owning a class 3 ppsh-41 I am shure are educated and would know the difference and would not be shooting .30 mauser in one possibly do to what amafrank stated;would not function properly do to it's weaker loading. Also it is possible however remote that someone will only read his article on the ppsh-41 and about the interchange statement and start shooting 7.62 x25 surplus in broomhandles based on his testament. I don't beleive Mr. Venturino is purposely writing to 'cause any potential accidents and what he does write is making sense to him, but with any writing you do have to watch how it is worded,it can mean different things to different people.
 

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I believe if barrels made of better steel and/or better heat treat could be had, then the CZ52 become stronger than the brass.

I cannot make barrels, but I can machine the outside. I could make CZ52 barrel from an annealed 4140 .308 barrel, heat treat it, and it should become safe like other semi auto pistols. Especially if the roller relief were a few thousands shallower, and a few thousands of roller were ground off.


Right now, the load book loads for Tokarev are as wimpy as any factory 30 Mauser load.
The danger for shooting CZ52 is surplus Tokarev ammo or overloaded handloads.
The Tokarevs can take overload work ups until the primers fall out.
 

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I believe if barrels made of better steel and/or better heat treat could be had, then the CZ52 become stronger than the brass.

I cannot make barrels, but I can machine the outside. I could make CZ52 barrel from an annealed 4140 .308 barrel, heat treat it, and it should become safe like other semi auto pistols. Especially if the roller relief were a few thousands shallower, and a few thousands of roller were ground off.


Right now, the load book loads for Tokarev are as wimpy as any factory 30 Mauser load.
The danger for shooting CZ52 is surplus Tokarev ammo or overloaded handloads.
The Tokarevs can take overload work ups until the primers fall out.

Clark, you are fortunate indeed.

I've wished to be able to do that. A 7-inch Tok barrel would get some appreciably increase in velocity and would boost top loads to their full potential. With a good set of adjustable sights the gun would be perfect for my ski jaunts and if I face a few wolves someday would be happy to introduce them to such a rig. Good grief, the pistol is almost perfect in stock factory condition.

As for the roller/recess relationship, the slide walls always eemed to me to be thin.
 

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I used to shoot 7.62 Tokarev in my Super Azul without problems but this selective fire pistol appears to be more heavily built than most Mausers. It MIGHT be safe to shoot Romanian 7.62 in a Mauser in good condition with a good stiff recoil spring (a good thing to make sure your spring is strong as they can weaken and the factory recoil spring is at least
70 years old)........I would NOT want to shoot Bulgarian or Czech 7.62 in a broomhandle.
The Romanian Tok ammo seems to be much less powerful than Bulgarian or even hotter CZ surplus. The Romy will not run in the PPs43. I have tried it in, the Bulgy is much better
and the Czech works best. The Romy will not kick the bolt back. Has anyone chronographed these 3 types or at least the Romanian ammo? I clocked Czech at 1630fps average out of a TT33 around 20 years ago. I don't recall any Bulgy or Romanian
being around then to test. I no longer have chrono access.
 

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9.3 -- you know, the guy's got something there. You could take an old rifle barrel with a bad throat or some other localized problem and cut a TT-33 barrel out of it. I guarantee that if you were determined you could do the entire job with nothing more than a vise, a hacksaw, a good millBastard file, some swiss/needle type files, and a hand drill. Just go slow, recheck your work often, and use the tools you know best. That TT-33 I've been modifying? Nothing but a Dremel and some swiss files. I don't even have a vise here. Left it in the mountains, where I've been making glacial progress on a Pennsylvania long rifle. Sound like a challenge? It is.
 

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Check out the January issue of "Guns" magazine. Mike "Duke" Venturino blathers on in an article about the PPSH-41 burp gun and makes this statement: "Most people also ask, "What cartridge is a PPsh41 chambered for?" I say 7.62x25mm and again they look blank. Then when you tell them it's interchangeable with the .30 Mauser of "Broomhandle" fame, again the lights come on."
I could hardly believe my eyes when I read this-just reconfirmed my already low opinion of gunwriters. I hope Guns magazine has some good liability insurance when somebody who reads this article fires some 7.62 Tokarev rounds in his Broomhandle and the bolt smacks him in the head.
Two observations, offered entirely FWIW.

The first observation is I wouldn’t touch any of the 7.62x25 milsurp ammo currently offered on the open market. It’s all from unknown sources, with an unknown storage history, and there is no way to separate out which ammo was sold because it was surplus to need and which ammo was sold because it was non-compliant, or not safe to even use in training due to age and/or improper storage.

There was a time, back before about 1990, when it was possible to get good, fresh, reliable Soviet Russian M30 ball 7.62x25 ammunition on the surplus market. But that’s now just a receding memory.


That said…

The second observation is 7.63 Mauser ammunition and 7.62x25 Tokarev ammunition is in fact interchangeable. Jane’s “Ammunition Handbook” says so. C.I.P. manufacturing standards have an entry of 7.62 Mauser and a separate entry for 7.62 Tokarev. And both entries list the same chamber pressures.

Soviet Russian adoption of the 7.63 Mauser cartridge as the 7.62 mm Tokarev cartridge is a subject covered in detail by Fred Datig in his “Soviet Russian Tokarev ‘TT’ Pistols and Cartridges 1929 - 1953”. Here is a quotation from page 131 that may be of some interest, “As has been mentioned in Chapter Four, to quote, ‘in 1929, the designers Korovin and Prilutskiy converted (redesigned) their (prototype) pistols to the 7.62mm caliber cartridge (after) the Artillery Committee proposed developing them for the 7.63mm caliber Mauser (pistol cartridge …”
“Except for that which one may consider manufacturing tolerances, the 7.62 mm Tokarev and the 7.63 Mauser pistol cartridges are relatively identical and interchangeable.”

To this I can add my personal experience. Over the last fifty plus years I have fired tens (and possibly hundreds) of thousands of rounds of Soviet Russian M30 7.62x25 Tokarev in hundreds of C96 Mauser pistols without incident.

People are free to believe what they wish and do whatever they think best, and I make no recommendation one way or the other.

Kyrie

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Two observations, offered entirely FWIW.

The first observation is I wouldn’t touch any of the 7.62x25 milsurp ammo currently offered on the open market. It’s all from unknown sources, with an unknown storage history, and there is no way to separate out which ammo was sold because it was surplus to need and which ammo was sold because it was non-compliant, or not safe to even use in training due to age and/or improper storage.

There was a time, back before about 1990, when it was possible to get good, fresh, reliable Soviet Russian M30 ball 7.62x25 ammunition on the surplus market. But that’s now just a receding memory.


That said…

The second observation is 7.63 Mauser ammunition and 7.62x25 Tokarev ammunition is in fact interchangeable. Jane’s “Ammunition Handbook” says so. C.I.P. manufacturing standards have an entry of 7.62 Mauser and a separate entry for 7.62 Tokarev. And both entries list the same chamber pressures.

Soviet Russian adoption of the 7.63 Mauser cartridge as the 7.62 mm Tokarev cartridge is a subject covered in detail by Fred Datig in his “Soviet Russian Tokarev ‘TT’ Pistols and Cartridges 1929 - 1953”. Here is a quotation from page 131 that may be of some interest, “As has been mentioned in Chapter Four, to quote, ‘in 1929, the designers Korovin and Prilutskiy converted (redesigned) their (prototype) pistols to the 7.62mm caliber cartridge (after) the Artillery Committee proposed developing them for the 7.63mm caliber Mauser (pistol cartridge …”
“Except for that which one may consider manufacturing tolerances, the 7.62 mm Tokarev and the 7.63 Mauser pistol cartridges are relatively identical and interchangeable.”

To this I can add my personal experience. Over the last fifty plus years I have fired tens (and possibly hundreds) of thousands of rounds of Soviet Russian M30 7.62x25 Tokarev in hundreds of C96 Mauser pistols without incident.

People are free to believe what they wish and do whatever they think best, and I make no recommendation one way or the other.

Kyrie

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That is interesting. Very interesting. I BELIEVE the similarity /identity for C.I.P. standards for 7.62x25 Russian and 7.63 Mauser are probably based on commercial loadings by European manufacturers for standardization, and I SUPECT that the 7.62x25 was probably conservatively loaded to avoid possible harm to C-96s.

I got a TT-33 (Russian, made in 1945) that was a Vietnam bring-back in 1970. Russian (any ComBloc) ammo was essentially unobtainable, but there was a guns hop in Indiana across the river from Louisville that we (another Ordnance captain and I) heard had some .30 Mauser. Since Terry had a C-96, we drove over from Fort Knox one Saturday and bought what he had. Two boxes of Remington, two of Peters. We had been shooting some, using ammo made from cut-down 5.56 brass and 93-grain FMJ .30 Luger bullets (nobody seemed to be making 86-grain at that time). Can't recall powder charge, but seem to recall it was Unique or maybe 2400.
\
Terry's C-96 had a longer barrel, and it ran 100 or fps faster than the Tok with same hand loads and about 50-75 fps faster than the Tok with the commercial .30 Mauser loads. Had no idea which one was stronger, and about the only difference we noted was the significantly lighter Tok had snappier recoil.

Fast forward to around 1990, and mil-surp 7.62x25 was showing up. Friend had a C-96 and a chronograph. The Colonel (retired LTC) and I were out banging various things across the screens. Got to some Chinese 7.62x25. It showed over 1600 fps from the Tok, and Jim tried a magazine full through his C-96 and decided that was enough, felt it was beating the gun up. A couple of ,weeks alter, another member of the club we belonged to had a broken locking block in a C-96, shooting that same ChiCom 7.62x25 I had. Whether it was too hot for the gun or what, I dunno. But with what has been related by various folks and what parts situation is and what I have actually seen, I think I'll stick to milder stuff in any C-96 I take to the range.

Like anything else, I'm sure you could break a TT-33, but am pretty sure it would be harder.
 

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d-square --- I have a broomhandle produced in 1915, two CZ52's I bought in 1998, and a semi auto PPS-43 I bought about 3 years ago, each one in 7.62x25mm. I've fired the Fiocchi ammo in each of them and they all functioned well. I have never fired the surplus 7.62x25mm in the broomhandle and never intend to. I have fired the surplus ammo in the CZ52 and the semi auto PPS-43 with good results. The Fiocchi ammo is not stored anywhere close to the surplus ammo so the chance of getting the two mixed is practically ZERO. I can easily tell them apart at a glance anyway.

I greatly enjoy Mike Venturino's magazine articles on guns of the old west and guns of WWI and WWII. I've visited with him at various gun shows I have attended. In my opinion he is very knowledgeable concerning firearms from both eras and is an intelligent man to have a "gun" conversation with. His books on old west firearms and 20th century military firearms is easy reading and holds my undivided attention into the wee hours of the morning on cold Montana winter nights. I have all his recent publications. It is too bad some of you intelligent contributors to this forum have such a low opinion and twisted mind set toward a successful gun writer and intelligent fellow gun lover who makes a good living at what he enjoys and does.
 

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I am certainly no expert on the C96 or 7.63x25 ammunition I do however shoot my share of 7.62x25 in my Tokorev pistols. The point I should like to make is there seems to be a segment of the shooting public that is devoted to attempting to fire ammunition in a firearm for which it was not designed. Why this is I do not know, human nature? Often I read on forums from the person who insist it is safe to shoot .38 Super and 9mm Luger in pistols chambered for 9mm Largo (Bergman) and other such comparisons ....I contend the weapon should receive the ammunition for which it is chambered and barring a catastrophic event where experimentation is survival, the correct ammo should only be used. I value my fingers and firearms so I will continue my course of using proper calibers for a given application.
 

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I have personally inspected two broomhandles that were damaged using Tokarev ammo. One was fixable; the other needed parts which are getting much harder to find. Maybe it's just me, but I would never shoot Tokarev ammo in a broomhandle Mauser. 30 Mauser is still available, and yes, it is pricey. Better safe than sorry.

Ken
 

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I have personally inspected two broomhandles that were damaged using Tokarev ammo. One was fixable; the other needed parts which are getting much harder to find. Maybe it's just me, but I would never shoot Tokarev ammo in a broomhandle Mauser. 30 Mauser is still available, and yes, it is pricey. Better safe than sorry.

Ken
I've seen several Czech Vz.52 pistols destroyed by milsurp 7.62x25. The two most common culprits were the Bulgarian 7.62x25 that came wrapped in pink paper and the Czech 7.62x25 that came boxed, on eight round strippers. So it wouldn't surprise me if C96s were damaged by dangerous milsurp 7.62x25. Come to that, it doesn't surprise me when a C96 is damaged when firing .30 Mauser, as a lot of these C96s are a hundred years old and may be ready to fail regardless of the ammo being used.

All that said, at this point in time I don't see any pressing reason to shoot anything other than high quality, current commercial manufacture, 7.63 Mauser in a C96 originally (and still) chambered for that cartridge. I also don't see any pressing reason to shoot anything other than high quality, current commercial manufacture, 7.62x25 Tokarev in any firearm originally (and still) chambered for that cartridge. Current production commercial 7.63 Mauser and 7.62 Tokarev ammo isn't rare, or especially hard to find. It can be ordered on-line and delivered to our front door.

The reason I used so much 7.62 Tokarev in my C96 was the near complete absence of 7.63 Mauser ammunition. Remington and Winchester ceased production 7.63 Mauser back around 1965, and by 1970 there was simply no 7.63 Mauser ammunition available anywhere, at any price. Back then if a fellow had and wanted to shoot a 7.63 C96 (or a 7.63 Mauser Star model A carbine!) Soviet Russian m30 ball was the only game in town.

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