Gunboards Forums banner
1 - 20 of 106 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,087 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Check out the January issue of "Guns" magazine. Mike "Duke" Venturino blathers on in an article about the PPSH-41 burp gun and makes this statement: "Most people also ask, "What cartridge is a PPsh41 chambered for?" I say 7.62x25mm and again they look blank. Then when you tell them it's interchangeable with the .30 Mauser of "Broomhandle" fame, again the lights come on."
I could hardly believe my eyes when I read this-just reconfirmed my already low opinion of gunwriters. I hope Guns magazine has some good liability insurance when somebody who reads this article fires some 7.62 Tokarev rounds in his Broomhandle and the bolt smacks him in the head.
 

·
Gold Bullet Member
Joined
·
2,909 Posts
Check out the January issue of "Guns" magazine. Mike "Duke" Venturino blathers on in an article about the PPSH-41 burp gun and makes this statement: "Most people also ask, "What cartridge is a PPsh41 chambered for?" I say 7.62x25mm and again they look blank. Then when you tell them it's interchangeable with the .30 Mauser of "Broomhandle" fame, again the lights come on."
I could hardly believe my eyes when I read this-just reconfirmed my already low opinion of gunwriters. I hope Guns magazine has some good liability insurance when somebody who reads this article fires some 7.62 Tokarev rounds in his Broomhandle and the bolt smacks him in the head.
Dimensionally they fit in the same guns... pressure-wise, they do not. I would have related it to a 9mm before relating it to the .30 mauser. Really, who shoots .30 mauser, i think there are much more 7.62x25 shooters out there.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,087 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
Dimensionally they fit in the same guns... pressure-wise, they do not. I would have related it to a 9mm before relating it to the .30 mauser. Really, who shoots .30 mauser, i think there are much more 7.62x25 shooters out there.
Yes, they are dimensionallythe same which is the point of my post. Yes, there are a lot of folks out there who shoot 7.62 Tokarev in their pistols designed to shoot 7.62 Tok. Nevertheless, enough shoot .30 Mauser that Prvi Partisan and Fiochi make ammo for it and I see at least one Broomhandle at most gun shows.
 

·
Silver Bullet member
Joined
·
36,347 Posts
The .30 mauser should be interchageable in the PPsh41. I'm assuming the Soviets were smart enough to make it to function with captured German and Finn ammo.
The Finns bought millions of rounds of .30 mauser from Germany in WWII, to use in SMGs designed for the Tok round.
So its interchangeable in some guns, or one way only, .30 Mauser, or 7.63x25 Mauser can be used in a 7.62x25 firearm, but not vice versa. I hope anyone with a nice broomhandle or Luger is savvy enough to know this, unlike the Guns writer.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
845 Posts
That's a really stupid mistake for someone in the business to make. Yeah -- you can put .30 Mauser through later designs, but running standard .30 Tokarev through a .30 Mauser is an invitation to disaster. And it's not much comfort to me that there are a lot more .30 Tokarev chambered guns out there on the ranges right now because guns chambered for .30 Mauser and .30 Luger are very commonly inherited by people who have little idea what they've got. Those folks are prime candidates for choosing the wrong ammo. Really don't know how much of that hot ammo a C-96 might be expected to handle before breaking the bolt block and launching the bolt into the shooter's face, but some guns in poor repair might give way immediately.
 

·
Silver Bullet Member
Joined
·
2,990 Posts
Check out the January issue of "Guns" magazine. Mike "Duke" Venturino blathers on in an article about the PPSH-41 burp gun and makes this statement: "Most people also ask, "What cartridge is a PPsh41 chambered for?" I say 7.62x25mm and again they look blank. Then when you tell them it's interchangeable with the .30 Mauser of "Broomhandle" fame, again the lights come on."
I could hardly believe my eyes when I read this-just reconfirmed my already low opinion of gunwriters. I hope Guns magazine has some good liability insurance when somebody who reads this article fires some 7.62 Tokarev rounds in his Broomhandle and the bolt smacks him in the head.
I don't see a problem in what he said. He is saying that the PPSH can fire 7.62x25 and .30 Mauser. Which is true and safe.


its no differnent then someone saying a .327 Magnum gun can fire .32 S&W Longs. Doesnt mean it works the other way.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
31 Posts
Reloading data...

Best I can tell from the reloading data books I have is:

.30 Mauser - Rough average across several different loads is about 280 ~ 320 ME (ft-lbs) with a 1150 ~ 1300 MV (ft/s).

7.62X25 Tok - Rough average across several different loads is about 375 ~ 450 ME (ft-lbs) with a 1450 ~ 1550 MV (ft/s).

Also some specs on common surplus 7.25X25 data can be found here: http://members.nuvox.net/~on.melchar/tokarev/index.html

The average 7.62X25 loading looks like it's going to generate anywhere from 20% to 60% more energy than an average .30 Mauser loading. While 20% more energy may be OK, 60% more energy in a gun not designed for those kinds of pressure is asking for big trouble in my opinion.

Of course loading the .30 Mauser in a gun designed for the 7.62X25 Tok should be perfectly safe provided the loading has enough energy to safely cycle the action (and the chamber tolerances don't mind the very slight difference in the casing).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,353 Posts
I don't see a problem in what he said. He is saying that the PPSH can fire 7.62x25 and .30 Mauser. Which is true and safe.


its no differnent then someone saying a .327 Magnum gun can fire .32 S&W Longs. Doesnt mean it works the other way.
I do not think you read the post correctly, "it's interchangeable with the .30 Mauser of "Broomhandle" fame" means that it can be interchanged with the .30 Mauser, that means that it can be done both ways, interchangable: permitting mutual substitution. No question, that is a bone head remark for a paid (read professional) guns writer.
Best wishes
Gus
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
709 Posts
I bought a 30 Mauser reamer because it is cheaper than a 7.62x25mm Tokarev reamer.
I bought it use up Tokarev ammo in a rifle I built.

The dimensions in the books for the two cartridges are closer than typical tolerances on SAAMI registration of chambers or cartridges.

Many books will say that the 30 Mauser is lower pressure than the Tokarev cartridge and so one should not shoot Tokarev ammo in a 96 Mauser. As I like to point out, the 96 Mauser is built stronger than the CZ52, and the Tokarev is stronger still. When I contact book authors, the errors seem to trace back to a US army publication in 1971.

The cause the erratic variation in which CZ52 blows up, I have now traced back to a wide variation in RC hardness of CZ52 barrels.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
203 Posts
I bought a 30 Mauser reamer because it is cheaper than a 7.62x25mm Tokarev reamer.
I bought it use up Tokarev ammo in a rifle I built.

The dimensions in the books for the two cartridges are closer than typical tolerances on SAAMI registration of chambers or cartridges.

Many books will say that the 30 Mauser is lower pressure than the Tokarev cartridge and so one should not shoot Tokarev ammo in a 96 Mauser. As I like to point out, the 96 Mauser is built stronger than the CZ52, and the Tokarev is stronger still. When I contact book authors, the errors seem to trace back to a US army publication in 1971.

The cause the erratic variation in which CZ52 blows up, I have now traced back to a wide variation in RC hardness of CZ52 barrels.

where did you get your reamer and how much was it?
 

·
Gold Bullet member
Joined
·
301 Posts
Clark- You say the broomhandle is built stronger than cz-52's and tokarev's can you elaborate more. Is it that broomhandles are built from "solid steel" (laymans terms). for long term durability etc. Hence imported ones from China still in existence after years of possibly being used with the 7.62 Soviet. The cz-52 uses the roller locking system borrowed from the Germans and the Czech's used a heavier loading for them in 7.62 soviet. So are you saying it is; material usage or design or both,with regards to these different guns?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,279 Posts
This kind of thing seems to be one of those internet myths that is repeated over and over again by folks who have no actual experience until it somehow becomes the "truth". How many times has Tok ammo been fired in a Mauser C96 without a blowup? Better yet, how many times has one blown up? Anybody actually hear of a catastrophic failure from shooting Tok ammo? I have never read of one. There is a guy in Florida who relines Broomhandles and he says it is okay to shoot Tok ammo in the Broomhandle. If the above poster Clark is the same guy I think he is, he would have blown up a Broomhandle or two by now just to see if he could blow one up.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,087 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Actually I know a guy who did blow up a c96 shooting Czech Tokarev ammo through it. There is a fellow on 1896Mauser.com who this also happened to as well. Big boys rules. If you do it-just don't stand by me at the range.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
709 Posts
I got a 30 Mauser reamer directly from Clymer for $80 5 years ago.
It does not seem to be a standard reamer any more.
The wild cat price is higher, but the reamer can always be had.


I bought the broomhandle just to verify that it is stronger than the CZ52.
I can work up to level that blew up one CZ52, but the primer pierces with the large firing pin hole. The chamber and barrel are also looser than the CZ52, so the experiment lacks control.

The broomhandle looks stronger.

A CZ52 blew up at the Issaquah range where I shoot, and someone was injured.
That was with surplus ammo.
The current crop of load book loads would not blow up a CZ52, but surplus ammo can blow up the CZ52s with soft barrels.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,787 Posts
"Looks stronger"?? I hope you wear body armor and a welder's helmet when you conduct your experiments!

I have seen two broomhandles blown up by combloc Tok ammo.

As for "Duke" Venturino, he's always been a buffoon, but he seems to have gotten a lot worse since he ventured (pun intended) into the milsurp area.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,780 Posts
I have a lot of experience with the broomhandles as I used to collect them in the 70's and 80's. There was not much ammo available for them at the time and we shot the tokarev ammo in them with not terribly bad results for a while. We started noticing the locking blocks in the broomies were cracking. I saw at least 3 guns with cracked blocks and another with a broken one. It doesn't necessarily need to blow up the gun to cause damage. It also doesn't mean that one round through the gun will damage it but over time it will damage it. Are the rounds interchangeable???? Thats a judgement call because the tok round was copied from the mauser round which was copied from the Borschardt round. The loadings are not the same though and you shouldn't use the mauser round in the Borschardt and the tok round in the mauser. As an interesting aside, I tried firing the mauser commercial ammo in a PPSh41 and a Steyr MP30 and it wouldn't cycle either gun. It would fire but not push the bolt back far enough to even eject. That difference of 200fps is quite a lot recoil wise and a lot pressure wise.

Good luck arguing with the writer, He may or may not be open to reality and it may have just been a slip on his part.

Frank
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
195 Posts
Listen to Frank! The tok ammo is slighly stouter and pressures etc can vary in milsurp. Little by little the back of the bolt stop slot will weaken. Once malformed, the weapon is dangerous to use with any ammo.

PS: The bolt stop area and the bolt stop should be checked before and after firing Fiocchi or any other 7.63 Mauser ammo, even lighter hand loads. Remember, this is the weak point of the C96.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
273 Posts
Interesting comments. I always ASSUMED the Broomhandle was a weaker design, mostly due to age. I'm also very concerned that a parts failure in a C96 could lead to having a steel bolt coming back into your right eye! More than enough reason for ME to only fire the properly designated ammo in my C96 (a commercial gun of about 1910 vintage--all matching except the magazine floorplate :( ).

Mike does in fact haunt several of the gun forums that I visit. Anyone heard from him on the subject? I could try IM'ing him on one of them.

Rob
 

·
Gold Bullet member
Joined
·
301 Posts
Clark- So an aftermarket barrel should do the trick. A lot of Cz-52's were built in the 50's and refurbished in the 70's and 80's. I wonder when they were refurbished how many if not all recieved new barrels and of those how many were of faulty hardness. The cz-52's imported in the early 90's at least to me seemed better. The latest crop appear rougher. Also with mil-surps when these were in service they were sometimes continualy gone over by trained armorers in that particular weapon and inspected, with parts replaced at intervals. Now these retirees; are used and used in some cases with the only maintenance is a rub down with Wally's wonder wipe.
 
1 - 20 of 106 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top