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jardows
Gunboards Premium Member

USA
109 Posts
Posted - 12/10/2005 : 9:52:21 PM
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I have been able to reform some 6.5 Carcano cases for use as 7.62x45 cases. Lube good, run through the FL sizer, then trim. Now two questions arise before I put primer powder and bullet in. 1st, how precise do I need to trim the case length? The specs I have been able to look up show a case length of 1.77" or 1.771". I do not have a trim die, but am using a Lee trimmer with a 7.62x39 pilot, stopping every now and then to check the measurment with my caliper. Most of the cases I have gotten to right aroun 1.769 - 1.77, no problem. But a couple I didn't stop soon enough and are trimmed to 1.760. I know that variation is within tolerance for my 8x57 cases, but I wasn't sure with this one.

My secon question is about the need to anneal the cases. The original 6.5 Carcano cases were annealed, but after reforming and trimming, the only part left of the case that was annealed is the new case neck and maybe a little of the shoulder. Do I need to re-anneal the cases, or should the original annealment still be good enough?

marysdad
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member

USA
808 Posts
Posted - 12/11/2005 : 11:52:13 AM
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The short cases are fine.

I would probably anneal them again now, and again every 4 or 5 firings. As much work as they are to form, you'll want them to last as long as possible. I formed my cases using .220 Swift brass and they seem like they are going to last forever.

Thanks for posting, as I believe that this is the way to go for folks who want to shoot their VZ-52s. Buying the milsurp 7.62 x 45 ammo is a real crapshooot (i.e., don't whether it will shoot or is just crap).

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bohemian
Moderator

USA
523 Posts
Posted - 12/12/2005 : 6:58:52 PM
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Jardows,

Do you have any of the Lee hand trimmers? I use the .30-30 length tools and then just shorten the rod that goes thru the primer hole. Then no matter how you trim them the length is right.

Have you had any problem with hecks that are too thick? I crumpled a couple because the necks were too thick to allow the bullet, and case to fit inside the bullet seating die. I ended up buying a Forester Neck trimmer to thin out the necks.

I have not annealed my cases but the max so far is only two loads on any one casing. I wanted to anneal them after the first firing if I can get around to it.

The surplus ammo is real easy to deal with. If it works shoot it, if it don't the powder and bullets reload very quickly into my formed cases. I typically buy any surplus ammo I can find that is cheap. The longer its out there the cheaper it gets and the more of the original bullets and powder that are available.

Robert

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goober
Gunboards Premium Member
USA
201 Posts
Posted - 12/12/2005 : 11:19:11 PM
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Bohemian, I tried the 30-30 guage and it does not work for me as its still too long.


The shoulder of the guage hits the inside of the case at the flash hole so I could cut the pin off and it still would be too long. These are 220 swift conversions from Buffalo Arms, maybe the case base is thicker?



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bohemian
Moderator

USA
523 Posts
Posted - 12/13/2005 : 12:09:00 AM
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I went out and checked. My trimmer is a .300S (.300 Savage?) not a .30-30. Crap! I have been telling every one it was a .30-30. When the trimmer pin is shortened there is still length left. I also checked the inside of my cases to look for indications that the trimmer was bottoming out. There was no indication that the trimmer was bottoming out in the casing.

My cases are 6.5 Carcano either Graf and sons or Norma cases.

Sorry about that. I wonder how many folks bought a .30-30 trimmer.

Robert

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jardows
Gunboards Premium Member

USA
109 Posts
Posted - 12/13/2005 : 5:06:57 PM
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.300 Savage pilot should work well. I checked, and the .300S case is .10" longer than the 7.62x45, so just a touch of trimming would be necessary. The 8x57 pilot I have consistently trims to about .007" shorter than maximum case length for that, so I would expect about the same from all their pilots. I had thought about ordering a special pilot, but at $19, a .300S pilot from Midway is waaayyy cheaper.
I'm trying to find the case neck trimmer you mentioned. Is it the Forster Case Trimmer Outside Neck Turner? I haven't tried to seat any bullets yet, so I don't know if I have any issues with neck diameter or not.


bohemian
Moderator

USA
523 Posts
Posted - 12/13/2005 : 7:00:14 PM
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I went out to the garage to get my Forster trimmer so I can make sure I tell you the right thing this time. I have a Forster Hand Outside Neck Turner. It is listed as item #HOT100. I am not sure what Pilot I have as I do not want to take it appart to see the size on it. I am pretty sure it is a .311 pilot. I know that I have to make sure that once I trimmed the cases that I put the cases thru the resizer die making sure that I have a .311 or a .313 expander ball to make sure the case fits over the pilot. I had apparently had a .308 expander ball on the resizer die when it arrived and my reformed cases would not fit over the .311 pilot on the trimmer.

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goober
Gunboards Premium Member

USA
201 Posts
Posted - 12/13/2005 : 7:15:34 PM
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That feels better, I thought I was missing something for a minute, a 300S length trimmer is on the shopping list.

BTW I have 5 or 6 reloads on my Buffalo arms formed Remington brass with no problems but if I wanted to anneal the necks what would be the best method?




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marysdad
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member

USA
808 Posts
Posted - 12/14/2005 : 12:29:27 AM
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There is more than one way to approach annealing. What I do to anneal case necks is:

Stand a lit propane torch upright on the bench;

Put a bucket of water at my feet.

Hold the case by the base and rotate the shoulder portion of the case in the flame until the base feels hot; Then,

drop it in the bucket.

The theory is that your fingers will get too hot to hold the case before the neck overheats. Also, your fingers will ensure a reasonably uniform anneal from case to case.

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jardows
Gunboards Premium Member

USA
109 Posts
Posted - 12/14/2005 : 11:06:09 PM
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That hand turner is a little pricey yet for me to get. Got some other purchases I have to pay off first. But I think it will help me with other reloading as well, since they have the pilots for the other calibers I use.


marysdad
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member

USA
808 Posts
Posted - 12/14/2005 : 11:19:59 PM
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I began forming 7.62 x 45 cases long before I purchased a Forster neck turning tool and never had a problem with bullet seating. I use RCBS dies.

A neck turning tool is nice to have, but not necessary for milsurp rifles. The chamber and throat areas on these rifles are very generous to ensure reliability under adverse conditions.

Clean the inside of the case necks and chamfer the edge after trimming. Lube the case necks with dry mica if you want. You should be fine.

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jardows
Gunboards Premium Member

USA
109 Posts
Posted - 12/18/2005 : 12:05:31 AM
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It seems like I may need to get the neck turner, as I seated a bullet in one of my trimmed cases to see how it would feed, and the casing got stuck in the chamber. Fortunately I didn't let the bolt "slam home" so the case was very easy to extract. The case was very close (I think a trimmed a touch shorter than the milsurp case) and the OAL was shorter than the military bullet, so the only thing I can think of is that the case neck was too thick, and when the bullet was seated, it expanded the outside of the neck enough for the case to not fit. I was using Hornady 123grain .310 bullets. Or it may be somthing indicative of the entire formed case as a case without a bullet seated in it will not enter the chamber nearly as far as the surplus round does.


UncleJaque
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member

USA
1710 Posts
Posted - 12/27/2005 : 11:12:26 PM
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After forming them with a cut-down .303 British sizing die;

Here's how I trim mine to length (labled this pic with the wrong length, I think...)

Used the .311" reamer shown over the trimmer to ream the necks out a bit, as using .35 Rem. brass they are a bit thick.
It would have been a lot easier if it had a "pilot", but alas I could not find nor rig one.

Have since taken to using a Lyman neck-turning jig (which was fun getting to work on a Forstner trimmer, I might add!)




jardows
Gunboards Premium Member

USA
109 Posts
Posted - 12/31/2005 : 12:24:35 AM
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I have had an interesting issue come up. I was looking closely at my brass, since I just received my Forster turner, and my Graf's reformed brass had a taper in the neck. From the base of the neck to the case mouth is about .015" difference. Makes it very difficult to turn down the thickness. To check, I looked at the milsurp case, and there was only a very slight taper of about .005". I don't remember exactly. I obtained some Norma brass (free, how do you like that!), and it had the same qualities as the surplus cases. What is it about the Graf's brass that causes this issue, and have you noticed it causing any problems?
Next, the Norma brass is very thick at the neck. I'm afraid that outside neck turning may not work well for reducing the neck thickness. What's a good (though not costly) way or product to use to ream out the inside of the neck?
Finally, the last issue I need some answers to. I noticed that my expander in the RCBS die is for .308. What replacement part will have the proper diameter? Thanks.


marysdad
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member

USA
808 Posts
Posted - 01/01/2006 : 11:09:35 PM
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You may want to consider giving some .220 Swift cases a try. Any basic remchester cases will work. It takes a few more steps due to turning the rim and extractor groove. However, it's not difficult to do. And, none of the hassles that you have been going through with the 6.5 Carcano cases. Just a thought.

The way I've approached the case forming process is as follows:

1) Anneal the case necks. I use a propane torch and bucket of water.

2) Cut some stock off of the .220 case to make it within about .125 of the length of the Czech case. I use a Dremel. It doesn't have to be pretty, just hack the excess material off.

3) Lube the snot out out of the cases and full-length size them. I use RCBS 7.62 x 45 dies. Because you haven't dealt with the case rim yet, you'll need a .220 Swift shellholder.

4) Trim the formed cases to finished length. I use a case-trimmer, but a trim die will work too.

5) Turn down the case rim (to same dia. as 7.62 x 39). I did it by chucking the case in a drill press and using a file to remove the excess material. A lathe would work as well.

6) Cut the extractor groove. There will be a little bit of the original extractor groove left. With the case still chucked up in the drill press, I used a hacksaw blade to deepen the extractor groove to the same diameter as a 7.62 x 39 case.


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jardows
Gunboards Premium Member

USA
109 Posts
Posted - 01/02/2006 : 10:48:58 PM
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I think forming from .220 swift would be an excellent idea, but I do not have access to a drill press or a lathe for this sort of work. Anything available for cheap that might work as well? When you are trimming the rim and the extractor groove down, I'm curious as to how you get consistant results, knowing how much to cut down without overdoing it.
Of course, the norma 6.5 carcano brass only gives me a thick neck, which I believe a good reamer would fix, it's just the Graf's brass that is being a royal pain.


marysdad
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member

USA
808 Posts
Posted - 01/03/2006 : 01:31:28 AM
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I suppose that one could clamp a drill motor in a vice and use that to turn the cases. I just filed (or cut) a little at a time and stopped to measure with a caliper. Once I had a few under my belt, I was able to go pretty quick. I made 50 and don't believe that I scrapped any cases.

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marysdad
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member

USA
808 Posts
Posted - 01/04/2006 : 11:09:51 PM
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Thanks, UncleJaque, for sharing your lathe set-up. I now have a lathe (1926 South Bend) and was thinking on how I would set up for doing the rims. Using a mandrel to support the case neck is perfect.

Jardows,

He's using .35 Remington cases and has to turn the whole base of the cartridge to a smaller diameter. This requires more precision, hence the lathe. With .220 Swift, you only have to turn the rim. That is much easier to control by hand.

However, UncleJaque's example of using a mandrel to support the case neck while clamped in the lathe chuck is equally applicable to holding a case in a drill chuck. I did not do this and, somehow, got away with it. However, he's right on. I'll be doing it his way in the future.



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jardows
Gunboards Premium Member

USA
109 Posts
Posted - 01/05/2006 : 2:54:17 PM
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That's some awesome help, UncleJaque and marysdad. I'll have to keep that all in mind if I ever get access to a lathe or DP. I do have a question for UJ about the .311 reamer. I have the Hornady .310 bullets, will the .311 reamer make the hole too big for the bullet? I would have no problem going with the Speer or Sierra 125grn .311 bullets, but I hate to not be able to use the .310 bullets I have.


UncleJaque
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member

USA
1710 Posts
Posted - 01/05/2006 : 11:51:56 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by jardows

... I do have a question for UJ about the .311 reamer. I have the Hornady .310 bullets, will the .311 reamer make the hole too big for the bullet?

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It's apt to; only experimentation can tell for sure.

If the neck is too thick, it's academic as to whether we turn it from the outside or ream from the inside; once the thickness is right I can bump the orifice up with a .311" button on my old Belding and Mull loading contraption....



...or size it down in the FLS die.

Opening up the neck before trimming allows the cutting wheel guide pilot to fit and turn easily inside the neck, and if bullets end up being a litle loose, the case can be run back up through the FLS die.

I don't ream as much as I used to any more, as I noticed that it leaves the inside of the neck a little rough. That could effect "pull pressure" a little, thus effecting accuracy (not that it's that much of an issue in my VZ-52!).

BTW; that LEE .30-40 trimming spindle has had the little pin that normally goes through the primer flash hole busted off, so that the cone of the lathe tail stock can center on the primer pocket/ flash hole.
On some cases I have to open up the neck a little just to get that spindle in, as it can be pretty tight.

I've been using the 125 gr. .311" Sierra in both my X39 and X45 with pretty good results.

Have you ever slugged the bore on your VZ-52? Mine runs about .316", for goodness' sake!

HTH!






jardows
Gunboards Premium Member

USA
109 Posts
Posted - 01/09/2006 : 7:54:16 PM
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How would this setup work for trimming the rims and cutting the extractor groove in .220 swift cases? Cheaper than even getting a neck reamer setup!
http://www.grizzly.com/products/H2669


UncleJaque
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member

USA
1710 Posts
Posted - 01/09/2006 : 9:35:22 PM
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That rig is a little on the primal side; with just a tool rest it's essentially a wood turning lathe, and to turn cases you'd be pretty much winging it by guess and golly - which is probably better than nothing at all, and perhaps a little more controllable than just spinning the case in an electric drill.

Electric drill chucks and bearings usually will only put up with so much sideways pressure before they will start breaking down, you know; they are not really designed to work as a lathe.


jardows
Gunboards Premium Member

USA
109 Posts
Posted - 01/10/2006 : 6:28:11 PM
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Got another question about my carcano brass forming. I've trimmed to length, turned the neck rim, so all that is very very similar to the dimensions of a surplus x45 case. However, the case still won't chamber. The carcano base is .448, while the x45 base is .442. At least that's what I measured. Is the extra .006" diameter the problem? If so, is there anyway to fix it without investing in a base die and a 3ton arbor press?


pneps
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member

896 Posts
Posted - 02/07/2006 : 10:58:23 PM
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Any thoughts on using 300 Savage brass to make Vz52 ammo?

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