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Discussion Starter #1
7.5 MAS49/56 is a single shot-- need advice. Author Topic
Tembo
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
491 Posts
Posted - 12/31/2003 : 12:12:14 AM
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This week I broke out a 49/56 that I've never shot and discovered that what I thought was an autoloader is basically a bolt rifle. Its one of the typical, excellent condition, parkerized, re-arsenal rifles that were so plentiful for a while. And it won't cycle at all, really, except by hand. When everything is perfectly clean and oiled it will cycle the first shot, the second shot is half ejected and by the third you have to open the action to see if there is an empty or a hot one in the chamber. Its always the former.

The problem isn't the usual underpowered ammo, since I've been using French military ball made in 1972 and my '49s love it and work perfectly with it.

I have taken the gas system apart and everything is clear and normal.

So now it seems as though my next step ought to be polishing the chamber, but since I've never done that before I'm concerned that since I don't know what I'm doing I'll take off more metal than I should and damage the rifle.

So I'm looking for advice. Is polishing the chamber my next step or is there something else to do first. If polishing is the next step, how do you do it, what tools do you need and what abrasive do you use.? All comments and advice welcome.

Colin
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
708 Posts
Posted - 12/31/2003 : 12:51:01 AM
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The chamber should not require polishing unless yours is a 308 conversion by Century: those had really rough chambers. Sounds like not enough gas is reaching the action to function it. Check that the gas tube is relatively clean and unfouled (a really long pipe cleaner will do it). Also check that there isn't excessive gas leakage around the grenade launcher cutoff valve.


Tembo
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
491 Posts
Posted - 12/31/2003 : 01:12:43 AM
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I've had the gas system apart and it's perfectly clear. I see no sign of gas leakage around the cut-off valve. I assume I would be looking for black powder residue in and around the valve?

It isn't a .308. It is still 7.5 and I take your point. The chamber does look fine. No different really than on my two '49s. But I seem to have read on a thread on the old board that some of these were park'd internally by an a French exporter, which is what has me fixated on the chamber polishing. But again the chamber on the 49/56 looks the same as on the '49s. Smooth and grey. I'm at a loss.


djenkins
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
807 Posts
Posted - 12/31/2003 : 01:51:53 AM
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Have you checked where the gas tube enters the bolt?

I've heard of the gas pipe being undersized here and causing a major gas leak that results in the cycling problem.

If you do figure it out I'd sure like to know what fixed it.

Dennis Jenkins



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Tembo

I've had the gas system apart and it's perfectly clear. I see no sign of gas leakage around the cut-off valve. I assume I would be looking for black powder residue in and around the valve?

It isn't a .308. It is still 7.5 and I take your point. The chamber does look fine. No different really than on my two '49s. But I seem to have read on a thread on the old board that some of these were park'd internally by an a French exporter, which is what has me fixated on the chamber polishing. But again the chamber on the 49/56 looks the same as on the '49s. Smooth and grey. I'm at a loss.

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kelt
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



France
2315 Posts
Posted - 12/31/2003 : 02:00:06 AM
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Tembo,
To polish the chamber, remove the latch at the back of the receiver, and you have direct access to the barrel.
fit a fired but otherwise undamaged case to a rod, fit a nylon spacer on rod to prevent damage to the hole on back of receiver and improve alignment of polishing case.
Use very fine polishing past and power by hand drill, go slow, thoroughly clean chamber, barrel and gas system afterwards.

The polishing job is always an advantage on an autoloader, but you want also to check the smooth function of the bolt and carrier in the receiver with cover plate in place, ejector action, hammer protrusion in receiver.

kelt





Tembo
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
491 Posts
Posted - 12/31/2003 : 02:45:57 AM
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kelt,
Thanks for the suggestion. Just what I was looking for. Is there an easy way to attach the rod to the shell casing?

djenkins,
I'm not quite sure what to look for, but I will definitely take a look. I'm open to any and all ideas. Assuming I do solve this problem I look forward to posting the results.


Mr Nick
Gunboards Member



USA
41 Posts
Posted - 12/31/2003 : 08:37:32 AM
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I had the same problem with my 7.5 49/56. The bolt would not cycle all the way back. The problem was that the portion of the gas tube that goes into the bolt had too much clearance (I measured a new gas tube and it was larger). I purchased a piece of SS tubing and turned the gas tube and pressed on a sleeve and decreased the bolt to gas tube clearance. No more problems. The chamber polishing should only be needed on the 308 conversons. These have the oposite problem (to much gas pressure causing the bolt to try to extract the case while the pressure is still high (the gas port was moved back about 9/16" during the conversion)


Don Francis
Platinum Bullet Club



974 Posts
Posted - 12/31/2003 : 09:06:14 AM
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New Gas tubes

http://www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15663


Tembo
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
491 Posts
Posted - 12/31/2003 : 10:11:31 AM
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Thanks. Looks like there is a new gas tube in my future.
Can anyone explain why such a basic item would need modification? Isn't the gas tube in my rifle a standard, proven part?


djenkins
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
807 Posts
Posted - 12/31/2003 : 11:07:25 AM
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I can't explain this other than on one of my rifles this area tends to rust if not cleaned and examined freqently.

A $64 question IMHO.

Dennis Jenkins


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Tembo

Thanks. Looks like there is a new gas tube in my future.
Can anyone explain why such a basic item would need modification? Isn't the gas tube in my rifle a standard, proven part?

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Dub
Gunboards Premium Member



107 Posts
Posted - 12/31/2003 : 11:26:19 AM
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Check the area in the front of the bolt carrier that is recessed for the gas tube. In my experience(albiet limited) it is the carrier, not the stainless steel tube that rusts. Just swapping out the bolt carrier may solve the problem.


kelt
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



France
2315 Posts
Posted - 12/31/2003 : 11:34:18 AM
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Don Francis,

Gas tubes for Mas 49/56, great, can you put two pieces on hold for me?

I tried to send you an email but got failure reports.

Happy new Year 2004 to you and all Boards members.

Kelt


Tembo
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
491 Posts
Posted - 12/31/2003 : 11:57:45 AM
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Gentleman,
Excellent input all around. Keep it coming please. If there is more I'd like to hear it. I was beginning to worry that I had a wallhanger. Maybe there is hope after all.

Dub,
The gas tube in your 49/56 is stainless?

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Edited by - Tembo on 12/31/2003 12:02:23 PM


Dub
Gunboards Premium Member



107 Posts
Posted - 12/31/2003 : 12:10:12 PM
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I believe all gas tubes in 49/56s are stainless. Am I right guys?


djenkins
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
807 Posts
Posted - 12/31/2003 : 7:33:39 PM
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How can you tell?

Dennis Jenkins



quote:
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Originally posted by Dub

I believe all gas tubes in 49/56s are stainless. Am I right guys?

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Dub
Gunboards Premium Member



107 Posts
Posted - 12/31/2003 : 7:57:09 PM
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I don't know. I was going off information in a previous posting that quoted "Proud Promise".


Tembo
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
491 Posts
Posted - 12/31/2003 : 8:23:24 PM
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Since they are coated and I can't recall Huon mentioning it, it surprises me a little. What about the 44s and 49s?

Update-
I took Dub's suggestion and tried swapping the bolt carrier on the 49/56 for the one on my 49. Actually I swapped bolt, bolt carrier, spring, cover etc.- all moving parts except for the trigger group. Result, the '49 cycled properly and the 49/56 did not. Conclusion, it must be a gas problem. I rechecked the gas system. All clear and no leaks that I could find.

So, per djenkins and Mr.Nick's suggestion, I measured the chamber end of the gas tube on both rifles. What do you know! The 49/56 is a little smaller-
8.8mm vs. 9.0 for the '49. Two tenths of a millimeter doesn't look like much. You can just see the difference. So-

Am I finally on to something here?
Is this enough to cause the rifle not to cycle?
Mr. Nick, do you remember what your measurements were?
Why the heck is it smaller?



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Edited by - Tembo on 12/31/2003 8:25:34 PM


Buddy
Gunboards Super Premium Member



313 Posts
Posted - 12/31/2003 : 8:40:48 PM
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.513 = 13.03mm
.289 = 7.34mm
.3269 = 8.30mm
.3524 = 8.95mm
.802 = 20.37mm

More MAS pics >>>> http://www.sturmgewehr.com/bhinton/French_MAS/

HNY

Buddy

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Edited by - Buddy on 10/16/2004 6:38:43 PM


Tembo
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
491 Posts
Posted - 12/31/2003 : 9:18:06 PM
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Thanks for the specs Buddy. I make it that my 49/56 is about 6/1000"
smaller than your sample and about 8/1000" smaller than the MAS 49 I measured it against.

It is definitely a little smaller, but I don't know if that is enough to make it out of spec and to cause the failure to extract.

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Edited by - Tembo on 12/31/2003 9:24:09 PM


Don Francis
Platinum Bullet Club



974 Posts
Posted - 12/31/2003 : 11:21:38 PM
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by kelt

Don Francis,

Gas tubes for Mas 49/56, great, can you put two pieces on hold for me?

I tried to send you an email but got failure reports.

Happy new Year 2004 to you and all Boards members.

Kelt

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My email is [email protected] have emailed you via board.

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Edited by - Don Francis on 12/31/2003 11:26:03 PM


Mr Nick
Gunboards Member



USA
41 Posts
Posted - 01/02/2004 : 12:18:01 AM
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I believe that I made my gas tube .356" When I get to the shop I'll measure it.


Tembo
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
491 Posts
Posted - 01/02/2004 : 03:14:39 AM
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Mr. Nick,
That is just a shade larger than my working '49, so
I'd appreciate the info. I think I'll wait for your post, before I do much. Thanks.

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Edited by - Tembo on 01/02/2004 03:20:37 AM


Mr Nick
Gunboards Member



USA
41 Posts
Posted - 01/02/2004 : 8:31:11 PM
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I measured it today. .354"


Tembo
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
491 Posts
Posted - 01/03/2004 : 02:20:18 AM
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That is exactly the diameter of my working MAS 49. Sounds like I've found the source of the problem.

Thanks very much for the assistance. I'll report back when I get things sorted out.

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Edited by - Tembo on 01/03/2004 02:29:12 AM


kelt
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



France
2315 Posts
Posted - 01/03/2004 : 02:39:48 AM
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Tembo,
One of My 49/56 is in new condition, the dimension of the gas pipe head is 8.82mm, and the bolt carrier hole is 9.0mm.

kelt


Tembo
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
491 Posts
Posted - 01/03/2004 : 04:12:12 AM
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Kelt,
Thank-you for going to the trouble of measuring, because that is extremely interesting. I need to do some more measuring myself.


kelt
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



France
2315 Posts
Posted - 01/03/2004 : 07:15:26 AM
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Tembo,
If it helps, more measurements:
used 49/56, gas pipe 8.80mm, bolt carrier hole 9.0mm
VG 49/56, gas pipe 8.83mm, bolt carrier hole 9.0mm
new 49, gas pipe 8.80mm, bolt carrier hole 9.0mm
Gas pipe measurements by micrometer, carrier hole by calipers.

kelt


Tembo
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
491 Posts
Posted - 01/04/2004 : 01:41:42 AM
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Kelt,
The measurements do help. Unfortunately the news isn't very good. Your measurements coincide exactly with the measurements of my problem 49/56. However, they don't jibe with MrNick's measurements of his balky 49/56, since he increased the size of his gas tube to the same size as your bolt carrier hole. Same problem with the numbers on one of my '49s - the gas tube end measures 9.02 mm, the same size as MrNicks modified tube( his .354"). So I am a little confused and deflated, but still have hope. I think I am close discovering the source of the problem, but if this isn't the answer, then what is ? I still think that it must be the gas system.

Now I have to go back and re-measure both 49's. Then I am going to take the whole business to a friend - also a gun nut - who owns a machine shop and get his opinion and re-measure everything once more. At this point I've lost confidence in my measurements.

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Edited by - Tembo on 01/04/2004 01:44:27 AM


kelt
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



France
2315 Posts
Posted - 01/04/2004 : 02:34:17 AM
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Tembo,
my measurements are accurate to 0.01mm for the tube heads, and only to 0.1mm for the bolt carriers and concentricity is good for all.

Two of the rifles are as new, two are "used" and still values are very close even for the new 49! sorry not to be able to help.

kelt


Mr Nick
Gunboards Member



USA
41 Posts
Posted - 01/04/2004 : 09:25:49 AM
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I'll measure the bolt hole today. Maybe my problem was a large bolt hole and I solved it by making the gas tube bigger? If I remember correctly (it's been a couple years ago) I measured a gas tube for a 49 and not a 49/56 when I modified mine. By giving you both the tube diameter and the bolt hole diameter you will have the actual clearane in my gun.


Tembo
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
491 Posts
Posted - 01/04/2004 : 12:47:03 PM
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I am interested to hear what the actual measurement is. This is really useful stuff.

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Edited by - Tembo on 01/04/2004 9:44:39 PM


Mr Nick
Gunboards Member



USA
41 Posts
Posted - 01/04/2004 : 7:57:46 PM
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Gas rod .354" Hole in bolt .356"


WarDawg
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
143 Posts
Posted - 01/05/2004 : 10:39:39 AM
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Guys I have a 49/56 also.It is a rearsenal rifle. Pretty. But I have the FN ammo (PORT)7.5 French from a couple of years back and it is a single shot. The action comes back about 1/2 way.So no ejected case and no reload. I wish I could get my hands on 5 military rounds to see if they would fired in it .Anyone live in Georgia with a couple of real French rounds??? I will measure my gas tube also.Thanks WarDawg


Tembo
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
491 Posts
Posted - 01/05/2004 : 11:00:07 AM
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WarDawg,
If you have Lot 9001 FNM from Indep then the ammo is likely your problem. If you measure the gas tube end and the bolt carrier hole, I'd be very interested in knowing the result.

BTW If you don't have any other access, you can usually find French milsurp on one of the auction sites. There is also supposed to be new 7.5 French 139gr. ammo from FNM - the box looks just the same - that will work fine in your 49/56, though I have not tried it myself. Just make sure it is the 139gr bullet.

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Edited by - Tembo on 01/05/2004 1:01:56 PM


WarDawg
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
143 Posts
Posted - 01/05/2004 : 2:22:06 PM
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Tembo you are correct.I have the 9001 lot.1000 rounds worth.I bought it from SOG a couple of years ago.Im going to see if they will take it back and do a swap.If they are in good with there supllier they might be able to swap with me and we ALL get our money back or an ammo swap.I just measured my gas head. It measured .3518 I have good mic's.The carrier hole is .355 -.000 + .002 I measured north and south and east and west.Its out of round slightly.I also think that the start of the hole would be alittle more worn than deeper inside of it.Just a wear pattern. I checked my tube with a magnet and it stuck.So the tube is either steel or just magnitized stainless.I thought peole was saying they was stainless steel.?? You know? Well I will get back to yall about SOG and the ammo.I figuer they will not swap.I had it this long thinking the gun was at fault not brand new ammo.?? Also How slick is your action.Mine has a tight spot at its very end of travel ,beforte it starts forward to strip another round.I figure break in will free it up.It don't stick while cycleing but I can pull it back and gently let go and the trigger pressure will hold it from going forward.But if I slap the handle it will fly forward....Thanks WarDawg


djenkins
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
807 Posts
Posted - 01/05/2004 : 6:04:55 PM
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That FMN lot 9001 cycles just fine in both of my rifles.

Dennis Jenkins


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by WarDawg

Tembo you are correct.I have the 9001 lot.1000 rounds worth.I bought it from SOG a couple of years ago.Im going to see if they will take it back and do a swap.If they are in good with there supllier they might be able to swap with me and we ALL get our money back or an ammo swap.I just measured my gas head. It measured .3518 I have good mic's.The carrier hole is .355 -.000 + .002 I measured north and south and east and west.Its out of round slightly.I also think that the start of the hole would be alittle more worn than deeper inside of it.Just a wear pattern. I checked my tube with a magnet and it stuck.So the tube is either steel or just magnitized stainless.I thought peole was saying they was stainless steel.?? You know? Well I will get back to yall about SOG and the ammo.I figuer they will not swap.I had it this long thinking the gun was at fault not brand new ammo.?? Also How slick is your action.Mine has a tight spot at its very end of travel ,beforte it starts forward to strip another round.I figure break in will free it up.It don't stick while cycleing but I can pull it back and gently let go and the trigger pressure will hold it from going forward.But if I slap the handle it will fly forward....Thanks WarDawg

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Mr Nick
Gunboards Member



USA
41 Posts
Posted - 01/05/2004 : 7:54:23 PM
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BTW I've been using the French milsurp ammo


Tembo
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
491 Posts
Posted - 01/06/2004 : 01:41:25 AM
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djenkins,
I've heard of other 49/56s that work with Lot 9001. It would be interesting to know why your rifle tolerates it so well and mine and WarDawg's don't like it. Any chance you could measure the gas tube head and the bolt carrier hole? Maybe there is a connection.

Still don't know if the gas tube is stainless or not. Wouldn't stainless be difficult to parkerize? Why do it in the first place? Anybody know?

WarDog,
Can't help with the sticky spot on the bolt. Burr somewhere, or a little heavy on the park?

Thanks for the measurements. Your specs are close to MrNick's.
Here is a summary of what I've got so far.

gas tube end - bolt carrier hole - clearance


Mr.Nick
(.354") 8.99mm - 9.04 (.356) - .05mm


WarDawg
(.352") 8.94mm - 9.02 (.355) - .07mm


Kelt
1) 8.80mm - 9.0 - .20mm
2) 8.83mm - 9.0 - .17mm
3) 8.80mm - 9.0 - .20mm
4) 8.82mm - 9.0 - .18mm


Tembo

1) 8.85mm - 9.04 - .19mm
2) 8.86mm - 9.05 - .19mm
3) * 8.74mm - 9.04-9.08 - .30mm+

Sorry about the arrangement. I don't know how to make it format the way I want it to.

WarDawg and Nick's specs are close to each other and my two 49s are very close to kelt's.

It's pretty obvious that my rifle #3 is the problem 49/56. The clearance is much greater than on any other rifle. So, thanks to you guys, it looks like I'm on the right track after all.

I have a new gas tube coming. Of course I don't know what the dimensions will be, but if that isn't satisfactory I will take up MrNick's solution and enlarge it with a small piece of tubing.


Edmond
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



France
635 Posts
Posted - 01/06/2004 : 5:20:24 PM
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Dub

I believe all gas tubes in 49/56s are stainless. Am I right guys?

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that's right !


milspec
Gunboards Member



USA
24 Posts
Posted - 01/06/2004 : 7:02:53 PM
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I just received 10 gas tubes from Century, all reacted to a magnet indicating to me they are not stainless...7 measured .354 and 3 were .355 measured with an older RCBS plastic caliper. I have a number of 49/56s and will measure the carriers and tubes and the new tubes again once I get a better caliper. I did notice a bit of surface rust on the inner tube surfaces as well as the outer areas where the finish has been worn off a few of the tubes due to storage and handling...don't think stainless would do this. Keep the info flowing on the 49/56 and MAS in general as they are great rifles and fun to shoot.


Tembo
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
491 Posts
Posted - 01/06/2004 : 10:55:26 PM
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Surprised myself - several stainless items in my kitchen are magnetic - so that doesn't tell us much. I work in a business which uses a lot of stainless steel and it is all polished, not coated. I'd like to know the reason for parkerizing stainless. You are sure, Edmond? If so, do you know why it was done?

milspec,
I look forward to your posting the measurements when you get the new calipers. I need to upgrade my calipers, also. I have a moderately priced one with a digital readout and it can give me fits. I need something more accurate and repeatable. I spent more time measuring than I should have had to.

At .354, your tube ends are on the large end of the scale and the ones at .355 (9.017mm) are the largest yet and will probably be a very tight fit. Might be interesting to check the 3 largest ones against working bolt carrier holes and make sure they fit.

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Edited by - Tembo on 01/07/2004 12:29:50 AM


Don Francis
Platinum Bullet Club



974 Posts
Posted - 01/10/2004 : 1:38:09 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by milspec

I just received 10 gas tubes from Century,
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Milspec have you check the length on you tubes, just found out all mime were shortened most likely for use in the 7.62 NATO conversions.


Tembo
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
491 Posts
Posted - 02/06/2004 : 02:21:54 AM
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Well good news at last! I took the out of spec gas tube to my machinist shooting buddy. After turning it down, he put a sleeve on it and trimmed it down to Buddy's specs, 8.95mm, which is pretty tight, not a lot of room for error. I am happy to report that the rifle now works perfectly; the brass really sails out there. Very positive ejection. Like an AK. Amazingly enough, when I tried the old, bad FNM Lot 9001, it cycled perfectly with that as well! It just didn't throw it as far; about half the distance.

Like WarDawg, I'm feeling pretty good about the rifle and I'd like to thank everyone who contributed. Without your input I might have ended up just writing the rifle off as a bad investment. I imagine that when the rifle was refurbished an old, worn down gas tube was used. Or it was buffed a bit too much prior to being parked. Whatever the cause, it's pretty clear that a close fit between the gas tube end and the bolt carrier hole is critical to proper operation of the rifle.

It's been an interesting experience, I learned something and I'm grateful that it had a positive conclusion. Thank-you all.


Freightman
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
631 Posts
Posted - 02/11/2004 : 11:36:52 PM
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Great as my 49/56 is my favorite rifle.


phil62
Starting Member



France
1 Posts
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 04:31:52 AM
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hi I've got a 300 savage mas 49 56 that works as a single shot, the gas systeme is clear so i'm looking for reloading data with vectan powders or any suggestions about modifications (springs) to make it work semi auto


kelt
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



France
2315 Posts
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 07:39:19 AM
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Phil62,

Reloading data for 300 Savage using French Vectan powders may be scarce or unknown in the US.

Links to french forums on reloading and gunsmith passed on by Email.

kelt


DsrtVW
Sponsor Gunboards.com



USA
310 Posts
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 10:07:39 AM
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A problem that some rifles have had is the hammer causing the bolt to bind. Did you say that the bolt had a sticking point, action might need a bit of shimming to make the bolt slide back over the hammer properly.Good luck


kelt
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



France
2315 Posts
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 11:22:25 AM
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by DsrtVW

A problem that some rifles have had is the hammer causing the bolt to bind. Did you say that the bolt had a sticking point, action might need a bit of shimming to make the bolt slide back over the hammer properly.Good luck

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In such case it's the trigger assembly that needs to be worked on.

The subject has been covered several times, here is one of the links :
http://www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=29376&SearchTerms=Hammer,protrusion,adjustment

kelt

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Edited by - kelt on 10/19/2004 11:25:10 AM
 
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