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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
6.5mm Rifle Production, 1941-1945


Topic:



Topic author: Ronin48
Subject: 6.5mm Rifle Production, 1941-1945
Posted on: 06/16/2005 09:02:01 AM
Message:
The following is from UNITED STATES STRATEGIC BOMBING SURVEY, JAPANESE ARMY ORDNANCE, MILITARY SUPPLYS DIVISION, DECEMBER 1946, Table 9., page 9.

1941-188,470, 1942-63,090, 1943-30,000, 1944-4,772, 1945-.....

The above numbers represent 2.9 (2.864) series and probably include both T-38 and T-97 production. If you pull the 14K Nagoya 97 production you have roughly 2.8 T-38s.

Assuming (ass-u-me) Kokura completed the 26th series prior to 1941 (big assumption) then the War Years saw Nagoya produce most of it's 38s. Since Nagoya produced the 2 million T-38 rifles in the early-mid 1930s the above assumption seems invalid. So the above production numbers probably include both Kokura and Nagoya production. Anyone have a handle on when Kokura terminated 38 production?

Anyone else care to climb on the soap box and spout off on who produced what series, when?

Replies:

Reply author: gwsiii
Replied on: 06/16/2005 09:45:45 AM
Message:
Did Nagoya produced 2 million 38 rifles in the 30s?

Reply author: arisakadogs
Replied on: 06/16/2005 1:11:23 PM
Message:
Eloldefartuno is confusing Early Nagoya T-38s and the NO Series Tokyos again!


Reply author: gwsiii
Replied on: 06/16/2005 2:14:55 PM
Message:
The mind is a terrible thing....


Reply author: Francis C. Allan
Replied on: 06/16/2005 3:36:26 PM
Message:
Unfortunately, I think that the boys working on the USSBS were into the Sake! Their numbers do not add. That is to say nothing of the complication of insufficient identificaion of rifles, sniper rifles, short rifles, carbines and repaired rifles. Then there is the complication of Japanese fiscal years vs. western years. It is quite a mess. I hope to have this figured out to at least a resonable degree by the time the book is finished.


I have the rifles estimated at the moment but I want to get the carbines blended in the estimated times based upon dates of changes, finishes, etc. This will take a lot of work but I think that it is necessary.

More on all of this later.

Frnak

Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 06/17/2005 07:51:49 AM
Message:
Frank, if you get it figured out I'd like to borrow your crystal ball next Kentucky Derby! But that's what makes this 'hobby' so interesting, if we knew it all then there would be nothing to learn, speculate over.


For the stupid question, "Did Nagoya make two million rifles in the 30s?" or whatever it was. Nagoya Arsenal was established in 1923 (not the early-mid 30s as I remembered - too much 'Jesus Juice?') so says the 'Bible' MRoJ, p.8 2nd col., 2nd pgh. The early Nagoya rifles were serial numbered in the two million. I did not say they made two million rifles! Of course, the dumb two million rifle question came from a state where a man took his wife's amputated leg and made a table lamp our of it (true story) so what can you expect? Lamp-maker probably related to dumb question-asker or that other yo-yo, Apups, in CA!

Actually, if you could find the right taxidermist a real leg would make a better lamp than a plastic leg lamp as is now being sold by someone attempting to cash in on the lamp in "A Christmas Story."

Reply author: gwsiii
Replied on: 06/17/2005 09:17:29 AM
Message:
Would have been clearer if you'd have said "Nagoya produced rifles in the 2 million serial range with no series mark in the 30's" or better yet, "No series Nagoya rifles in the 2 million range" never mind, never try to teach a pig to sing, It's virtually impossible and annoys the hell out of the
. Roman candles at 5 paces this time? You name the place......


Reply author: davef
Replied on: 06/17/2005 09:40:40 AM
Message:
Elolddude woke up cranky this morning....ya get older,some mornings the bowels move before your feet do, and it ruins the whole day :)


Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 06/17/2005 10:24:16 AM
Message:
Davef, How do you get yur bowels to move? Been trying to figure that out for the past 90 days! (What's the meanest animal in the world?...The crockagator, has an allegator head on one end and croc. head on the other. Well how do he s..t? He don't, that's why he so mean!")


Reply author: fredh
Replied on: 06/17/2005 4:17:43 PM
Message:
Doss, in general terms, I think you can believe what you read in the Strategic Bombing Survey. Colonel Tatsumi talked that subject at length when we were putting the rifle book together. I got a feel for how the summaries were done, and he included budget numbers also, so all involved had a handle on the subject when the summaries were made. If you add in the rebuilds, which I've seen a lot of over the years, that's an easy way to get volume. And, for sure, they were in the summary. The hard parts of the rifle are already made; you've just got to find new barrels and wood for the most part.


Reply author: Francis C. Allan
Replied on: 06/17/2005 9:00:19 PM
Message:
Dear Fred;


Thanks for your insight. I had always dismissed the USSBS numbers, or a least treated them with suspicion. Sugawa's numbers seem more accurate to me as they happen to total just about the number of T-38 infantry rifles that I came up with independently. The USSBS numbers just sit out there tied to nothing. There are also conflicts within the USSBS numbers. As you probably know there are actually an enormous number of documents making up this series. Stan translated some of the Japanese schedules on production and they seem to disagree with the totals on the schedule Doss quoted. (Note also that Doss mentions just years in his admittedly brief comment, BUT they are Japanese fiscal years - another confusing twist.)

The biggest complication of course is the lack of specificity. For example, do the USSBS numbers include Hoten(Mukden) and Jinsen production? It just does not say, yet we can not ignore the 14,500 or so Jinsen rifles and the over 100,000 rifles and over 45,000 carbines made by Hoten. The schedule does not mention carbines or sniper rifles, yet I think Hoten made carbines fairly late.

Also, where do the Cavalry Rifles fit into this picture? Were they considered 'manufactured' or 'repaired'? I have seen some Japanese language schedules that have colomn titles where they could fit either. On one scheudle, Nagoya is said to produce approximately 400 Type 38s right up to the end of 1944. Surely, they can't be infantry rifles? Maybe T-97s or Cavalry Rifles.

The questions go on and on.

Frank


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