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Fazer
Gunboards Member


Australia
99 Posts
Posted - 06/30/2006 : 04:51:54 AM

Has anyone had any dealings with this round. I have a martini chambered for this and was wondering if it was worth chasing down all the brass and stuff to shoot it, or should I just stick with the old stand bys. Thanks, Chip

gert10
Gunboards Super Premium Member


456 Posts
Posted - 06/30/2006 : 06:45:24 AM

No, no experience with the round - should be a nice one though - and to answer the 2nd part of your question: Of course it would be worth the effort to get all the stuff to shoot it! :) After all, it is a Martini!
I would start and check if it woulfd be possbile to necksize with a die you have, get some cases, cast up or purchase some bullets, and let us know how she does... With pics, of course!

richardwv
MH Forum Moderator


USA
1832 Posts
Posted - 06/30/2006 : 08:17:42 AM Assuming the carbine is in good shape, of course I'd hunt up the supplies....which really shouldn't be that hard since Bertram makes the cases and I believe it shoots the common .458 bullet


Rich in WV…..savoring life one cartridge at a time!

AkMike1
Gunboards Member


USA
53 Posts
Posted - 06/30/2006 : 12:48:36 PM

I've got a Westley Richards 450 #1 Carbine in a Deeley_Edge Falling Block. I've formed 50-70 brass and tried 348 Winchester but the rim was too small to catch. I think you could use 32 guage shottie hulls also.
You could look here and see what I got for answers when I asked.

http://p223.ezboard.com/fbritishmilitariaforumsfrm12.showMessage?topicID=730.topic

DoubleD
Moderator


South Africa
1829 Posts
Posted - 06/30/2006 : 3:43:18 PM

Chip, never heard of a 500/450 #1 Carbine, Westley Richards 450 #1 Carbine yes.

You can use the 500/450 NE case shortened but you are going to need some serious neck reaming. 450 Musket #1 and #2 cases will work also. But if you find any Musket #2 cases you are suppose to send them to me.

50/90 cases will need rim reduction and case shortened and bodies will be a bit small. 50-70 cases are too short.

CBC cases if they are available in AU might work. All the standard warnings apply regarding balloon head cases and the shotgun wedged rim.

Just for the record no 500/450 based cartridges derives from the 32 guage shotgun case. Some can be made from brass 32 guage shells. Those 500/450's that were originally foil wrapped derive from Boxer 500 steel head that holds Boxer's primer. The rest came about as various versions using the 500 head diameter in drawn cases.

I would not be surprised to learn that the modern shotgun shell is derived from the Boxers steel primer holding heads.DD

That isn't your Martini you have. It belonged to others before you and will belong to others after you are gone. Look after it an pass it on with pride. It deserves it....Malcolm Cobb The Martini-Henry Note-Book.


AkMike1
Gunboards Member


USA
53 Posts
Posted - 06/30/2006 : 4:11:05 PM

DoubleD
I think that we are discussing different cartridges. I had to cut just over 1/4" off the 50-70 to get the proper length. I sized the neck with 45-70 dies to reduce it to 45 caliber then used 45 Long Colt dies to seat the bullets. This cartridge seems to be based off the 500 BPE case. I have some and formed a single case from one.
Look at the thread I linked to. There are all the measurements shown in it.



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AkMike1
Gunboards Member


USA
53 Posts
Posted - 06/30/2006 : 4:13:04 PM

I'll try the second pic again.



Hmmm,,,, Didn't work

Try this link for the dimentions.

http://municion.org/Westley/450Westley.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dwestley%2Brichards%2B500/450%2B%25231%2Bcarbine%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG

Arrggggh!! I hate computers! Afterb the error 404 code page changes to the index type in 450#1 carbine in the search box in the lower left and you'll find the right page.
Sorry.Edited by - AkMike1 on 06/30/2006 4:26:50 PM

DoubleD
Moderator


South Africa
1829 Posts
Posted - 07/01/2006 : 01:00:14 AM

No there are two different cartridges. There is a 450-1 1/2" carbine round and the 450 Carbine #1. Both Westley Richards creationDD

That isn't your Martini you have. It belonged to others before you and will belong to others after you are gone. Look after it an pass it on with pride. It deserves it....Malcolm Cobb The Martini-Henry Note-Book.
Edited by - DoubleD on 07/01/2006 01:04:19 AM


AkMike1
Gunboards Member


USA
53 Posts
Posted - 07/01/2006 : 01:12:52 AM

My WR is stamped on the barrel" Westley Richards 450 #1 Carbine".
The cartridge shown at 'munition.org' as a Westley Richards 450 #1 Carbine
is the same as I made from a 50-70 cut down. They measure the same as 5 NDFS labled '450 #1 Carbine' cartridges I recieved from a gentleman from England.
I have no idea about the 450 1 1/2" you spoke of. I suspect they are the same one.


DoubleD
Moderator


South Africa
1829 Posts
Posted - 07/01/2006 : 02:40:14 AM

Leave it to WR to confuse. Wal Winfer doesn't help. He freely uses the term 450 No.1 Carbine and 450 1 1/2. Winfer then lists an OAL for the 450-1 1/2 as 1.57" and the OAL of the 450 #1 as 2.37"

Anyone see a problem there?

While whipping through the pages in Winfer's book looking at every reference to 450 #1 and 450-1 1/2" he seems to be talking about the same cartridge. But in the cartridge section there are those separate and different OAL measurments. But look closer at Winfer's book and you find in the previous paragraphs Winfer discussing the difference between 450 Musket No. 1 and Musket No.2. He shows the OAL of the Musket 2 as....2.37".

Looking at Winfer's chart again it now appears he has made an enormous error and I have quoted it. So I am in error. But he even got it more wrong. He used the Musket 2 OAL and called it a #1. Then to get even more confusing, in his discussion on the cartrdige he talks about using 500/450 cases.

I owe him a letter and I think I will ask about that.

To add to confusion Winfer calls the rim diameter .657 and head of .573. Howell using a Kynoch drawing from 1884 calls the rim .660 and head .576. Howell also show all the WR 450 No cartridges with these same base measurments. MY CotW doesn't show the Carbine but it does have the Musket 2 and calls rim .663 and head .576. All are real close.

That being the case you could cut off 1 3/4" from a 500/450 No 1 Express case and neck ream and be real close Rim .655 and head .574.

Now the .348 Winchester cases with rim .610 and head .553 seem a bit small to use.

The 50/70 at .666 rim and .570 of course being in range with just a touch of work to the rim, as previoulsy stated by Mike I beleive.

So I feel confident to correct myself and say that the WR 450 1 1/2 and the WR 450 No. 1 Carbine are the same and not two different as I previously stated. But it is not a 500/450 No 1 Carbine!!

Aah don't you just love these old Brit cartridges!DD

That isn't your Martini you have. It belonged to others before you and will belong to others after you are gone. Look after it an pass it on with pride. It deserves it....Malcolm Cobb The Martini-Henry Note-Book.


AkMike1
Gunboards Member


USA
53 Posts
Posted - 07/01/2006 : 02:50:39 AM

Don't ya just love these old blunderbusses? :) Trying to figure out the right loads after a century has gone by is bad enough but to guess at a name for them is torture!
I do love 'en though.

Fazer
Gunboards Member


Australia
99 Posts
Posted - 07/01/2006 : 04:31:58 AM

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Just went out and did a quick chamber cast. I use some 2 part putty like stuff that dentists use. I have a mate who's a dentist. Anyway, the cast is what Bertrams list in their catalouge as a 500/450 #1 Carbine. Looked it up in other books as well. It's about 13/16 shorter than the #2 muscket but has the same base.
DD, I thought that you were getting rid of the #2. Let me know if you still have it and I'll try to piggy back an order onto mine when it goes in.
There are several markings on the barrel, one side says, Henry's Rifling A&T 2360, the other side says C. 45 N1 CARB. You can just make out in the photo. It's the bottom rifle. I have cleaned the stock since the photo was taken, it had some shiny crap on it. I guess I'd better go ahead with the rifle, really no point in having it if you can't shoot it. The C 45 markings aren't as good as the the Henry markings and makers name, so I would guess it's a latter addition.


AkMike1
Gunboards Member


USA
53 Posts
Posted - 07/01/2006 : 05:16:13 AM

Fazer, Those are some very nice looking rifles!
HOPEFULLY THIS WILL SHOW UP..

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Joel Black
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member


USA
798 Posts
Posted - 07/01/2006 : 11:50:04 AM

I have a W C Scott 1877 Field action drop block in 500/450 carbine. It chambers and the sights are perfectly regulated for the 45/75 WCF lead bullet loads that are marketed by Aardvark Industries.

DoubleD
Moderator


South Africa
1829 Posts
Posted - 07/01/2006 : 1:04:34 PM

Still have the Musket 2 project rifle. Always looking for brass.

Joel what is the cartridge markings on the barrel?
DD

That isn't your Martini you have. It belonged to others before you and will belong to others after you are gone. Look after it an pass it on with pride. It deserves it....Malcolm Cobb The Martini-Henry Note-Book.


Joel Black
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member


USA
798 Posts
Posted - 07/02/2006 : 10:40:52 AM

This time a picture isn't worth a thousand words. When I first bought this rifle I made a chamber cast. Since I was collecting British single shot rifles at the time, I had collected as many samples of the cartridges used in them as I could find. As luck would have it, I had a sample of a 500/450 # 1 carbine which agreed with cast. In addition I happened to have a 45/75 sample. They are so close that manufacture variations are all that could set them apart.

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Joel Black
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member


USA
798 Posts
Posted - 07/02/2006 : 11:17:37 AM

Here are photos of the Field action which is one of my favorite British actions. As you can see, its much like a high wall and precedes Browning's design by 3 years.

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Since I just remembered this is a an M-H forum, I thought I better include a photo of Field's other 1877 action that was patented at the same time. I know its hard to tell from this muddy photo, but rest assured, this is a side lever M-H.

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gert10
Gunboards Super Premium Member


456 Posts
Posted - 07/02/2006 : 1:07:07 PM

Joel,

I can only agree with you on the Field falling block - a very nice rifle indeed, and even quite a bit simpler than the Hiwall. Also, it can handle just about anything you can stuff in there. Very fast locktime too, due to the very light, central external hammer. I knew of a guy making replica's in SA, but unfortunately, he stopped before I could get one...
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AkMike1
Gunboards Member


USA
53 Posts
Posted - 07/02/2006 : 1:34:43 PM

Indeed, a very nice rifle!
If you looked atmy link above to the British Militarysite you saw pics of mine. It's not as nice as many but I like it.

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Joel Black
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member


USA
798 Posts
Posted - 07/02/2006 : 2:24:19 PM

Does your rifle have military sights or target sight?

AkMike1
Gunboards Member


USA
53 Posts
Posted - 07/02/2006 : 3:14:45 PM

Mine has 1 standing 4 folding and a military sliding staff.
With all those sight settings it ought to be good to 1000 yards! ;)
( More or less,probably ALOT less) :)

AkMike1
Gunboards Member


USA
53 Posts
Posted - 07/02/2006 : 3:20:44 PM

I found a pic of them.

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Joel Black
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member


USA
798 Posts
Posted - 07/02/2006 : 5:38:31 PM

I think a lot of people had illusions of grandeur about their rifles and their own shooting abilities. What look likes a leaf sight in front of the stand of folding sights on this .375 2 1/2 flanged Lee Speed is another stand of leaf sights. This rifle was purchased by Prince Kamil of Egypt in 1908. It had 6 sights out to 600 yards. He send it back to H&H in 1911 to be fitted with 4 more sights out to 1000 yards. This mind you,for a cartridge that was about the same as the 38/55.

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