Gunboards Forums banner

1 - 17 of 17 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
36 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
a big hello to all around!

Recently I mentioned to some friends proficient in long range shooting that I was thinking about putting a good scope on my big bore Winchester 70 in .416 rem. mag. and try some long range shooting out to about 800 meters. Well, that statement was greeted with howls of shock and indignation as if blasphemy. How can you? What nonsense! That is a totally inept and inefficient cartridge for anything further out than 300 yards. Too heavy, bad trajectory, too slow, totally inadequate ballistics for long range, etc....

So, since I am a total newbe to long range shooting, I just shut up and left it at that. But now I am thinking: ok, it's heavy, comparatively slow and all, but so is the .50cal BMG and that is used extensively and with good results for long range sniping. So how is that so different than the .416 rem. mag. and why does this even bigger cartridge perform so much better long range? :confused:

perhaps someone can shed some light on this for me?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
52 Posts
start with a definition of "long range"
imho 800 yards is not, the mil shoots 308 win for 800 yards
i shoot long range(2000 plus) i now no one shooting this round...does not mean it will not.
try visiting long range hunting, they have a long range board, accurate shooter used to but now it is hit and miss.
bench rest considers 600/1000 "long range" based on short range being 100/200
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,485 Posts
I was shooting my 6.5X47 Lapua at 1500 yds last year. Would have gone further but we couldn't spot misses so no way to correct. At 1500 it was doing great. We shot the 7.5 Swiss in a change barrel bolt action out to 2000yds with excellent accuracy and its not a long range cartridge. We took the 33XC out to 2600yds but it was intended for longer ranges. Meanwhile the owner of the ranch we were shooting at decided he was going to try some stuff after we left. He was dinging the steel at 2000 yds with his 223 AR shooting Black Hills 77gr OTM. His daughter ran her 6.5 Creedmore out to 1800 yds.....

The point here is this, tell your buddies to screw off. If they can't hit at 800 yds with their rifles they're sissies. No reason you can't shoot that thing at 800. Its not really that far.

Frank
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
36 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
ok, thanks for the inputs. Some of the cartridges you mention are interesting. I researched them an especially the 6.5 Creedmore gets a lot of thumbs up for long range. Does anyone have an opinion on the .416 Remington Magnum? It doesn't seem very popular for long range. And at 400 grains standard bullet weight it's a bit heavy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,001 Posts
I think it is a case of whilst you could use it for long range shooting/sniping there are other calibres/chamberings that are far more suitable and it is those calibres/chamberings that the majority of long range shooters will use as information on long range ballistics and trajectories etc are much more prevalent.

A cartridge designed to dispatch big game at relatively short range may not be the most suitable round for long range shooting/sniping in the same way as a round designed for precise long range shooting/sniping wouldn't necessarily be the best choice for bringing down a charging Cape Buffalo at 75m if that makes sense.
 

·
Silver Bullet member
Joined
·
48,451 Posts
Be weary of s man that has only one great rifle He believes in...he will shoot it well!
 

·
Platinum Bullet Member
Joined
·
47,515 Posts
start with a definition of "long range"

had a customer ask me about a couple rifles a few weeks ago,

I asked what he planned on using them for and he said Long Range,

my first question was, 'What do you consider Long Range?"

he said 200 yrds,


I envisioned milprileb laying on the floor laughing heartily,




re the 416,

bullet selection may limit you a bit, but with a proper hold over, it would be interesting to see what can be accomplished at distance with that caliber,
 

·
Silver Bullet member
Joined
·
48,451 Posts
30 holland holland was lighted at till Match’s in England
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,951 Posts
The biggest drawback I would suspect will be the SD and BC of the bullets currently available for the .416. Doesn't mean you can't hold over, dope the wind and trust your spotter's input. On the other hand, those big slugs hitting the dirt will make his job easier anyway. Then there's the recoil factor of a sporter stock designed for not so long range work.......? But what the heck, the folks that make powder and bullets gotta eat too, no?
Anyway, it sounds like a fun project and much insight will be gained, and that's winning all day every day.
Good luck and show the naysayers how it's done hoss!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
36 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
A cartridge designed to dispatch big game at relatively short range may not be the most suitable round for long range shooting/sniping in the same way as a round designed for precise long range shooting/sniping wouldn't necessarily be the best choice for bringing down a charging Cape Buffalo at 75m if that makes sense.
You make perfect sense, really. What got me thinking, though, about using the .416 for long range is the .50cal BMG. That bullet is also heavy, was designed to be used in machine guns and - surprisingly - enjoys a good reputation for taking out targets at extreme long range ....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
52 Posts
you are not comparing apples to apples when you compare the 416 to a 50bmg......two way different rounds for way different tasks. look at the bbl length of a bmg when used in competition or sniping ( not the plinker toys commonly sold to the public). the 416 is just a basic mag with a fat bullet..as was pointed out a short range round...a rainbow of an arc and real short distance. the same case in a 30 will do fine at long range.....but to think you are going to take a stock 416 nag hunting rifle and shoot long range accurately is a bit a of a dream..or just use a really large target
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,485 Posts
The simplest thing to do is to figure out your velocity, twist rate, bullet weight and conditions and plug them into a ballistic calculator. Big heavy bullets do quite well at longer ranges if they're starting out fast enough and shaped right. The 416 is fairly popular with the long range guys when propelled out of cut down 50 BMG cases. The 416 barret comes to mind here. So the bullet isn't the problem. The case on the other hand can restrict you and your rifle can be a problem too. If your rifle isn't accurate at 100 yds it won't be at 800 either. So get it dialed in and see what it does. The ELR match at Camp Atterbury Indiana last summer was won by a guy with a Savage bolt action 338 Lapua. Stock barrel and everything else. You might do just fine at 800 yds. I've fired my 510 whisper at 800 yds and was pleasantly surprised by the accuracy despite the rainbow like trajectory of 750gr subsonic bullets. As long as they fly the same a rainbow can get them there too.

Frank
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
52 Posts
The ELR match at Camp Atterbury Indiana last summer was won by a guy with a Savage bolt action 338 Lapua. Stock barrel and everything else..
Frank
this is like saying a NASCAR RACE was won by a STOCK mustang......STOCK is a class not fact.
the rifle in the match was a $1600 plus dollar ACTION AND BBL in a custom stock, TRIGGER UPGRADE and expensive bipod.
" Wise was shooting a Savage Arms rifle, chambered in .338 Lapua with the stock 26-inch, 1:9-inch barrel, Accurate Rifle Systems chassis, Rempel bipod and Rifle Basix trigger. "
$1500 CHASSIS
$400 BIPOD
and since NO ONE SHOT AT 2000 PLUS IN THE 2 PRIOR YEARS....it is a record....

AND a very experienced shooter
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16,897 Posts
Really good inputs on this thread and arguments against this caliber hold a bit more water than those favoring the attempt at 800 yds...in my opinion but here are what floats in my mind so track with me. First if you got the chance go ahead and try 800 yds with a spotter , its not very far as all the guys have said out load or insinuated...800 is 8 football fields...not far at all. Expect to run out of elevation on scope unless you have a 20 MOA rail on the rifle ...most likely you don't as its a hunting rifle. Expect your barrel not to be long enough to optimize the caliber's accuracy for 800 yds..again its a hunting rifle designed for hunting distances ..PLUS its thinner barrel will heat up fast so you'll be cooling your heels waiting for it cool down again. Beware of recoil: I'd not shoot that 416 from the prone...off a bench with sand bags with Past recoil pad on ..and make sure your eye relief is okay or you'll "Zero Clock" your eye and send us a photo from the ER. If the recoil standing up ...off hand shooting rocks you hard, forget shooting off bench...forget any use other than hunting.

This idea of the 416 rings true as I 've been down this road. I looked at 8mm Rem Mag, 458 Win Mag and 375 H&H to shoot longer range distances as I got these hunting rifles and the only one in a model action that a chassis is commercially sold for is the 700 REm in 8mm Rem Mag. The other two rifles are on BRNO Mauser actions and stocked all wrong for long range use. All 3 were bought / obtained to hunt Africa. None have scopes suitable for 800 or 1000 yds. Recoil is such only the 8mm Rem Mag would I try to shoot off a bench. All 3 ...kiss of death to my shoulder if shooting from prone..Heck the damn 458 and 375 which are both magnaported ring my chimes very very hard shooting a few shots from off hand (standing). Even if I could find a chassis maker, recoil negates all 3 calibers for serious shooting and flat out ...the barrels are all wrong for longer distance , far too short and If any had longer barrels and more "efficient" powder burning, the recoil would be even worse.

Thus I boil this down to : Yes You can and give it a try but I decided No Cigar. In order to even try it, I would need to buy new scopes and mounts / rings. Then I'd be defeated by recoil so where the blazes is this "project going" ?? and the answer is no where.

So ...if you simply want to do it , suck down the recoil, have a great spotter and "range in your shots" and Bonne Chance. Most likely you'll be first defeated by limits of your hunting scope and if you install a scope with the "legs" to shoot 800 yds and that investment is worth it to you, you'll stand a chance of indirect fire lobbing those big slugs out to 800 yds but then what ? Define for me the accuracy objective...hit a VW bug at 800 ? hit a 3x3, 4x4 or ? steel plate? Or drop rounds all around the target for a beaten zone?

GO do it , find out what happens , decide if you want to dump money into this and chase the rainbow. Or...just start out on Long Range shooting with the right kit. Get a 6.5 Creedmoor with 26 inch barrel, slap a 20 MOA rail mount on it, drop it into a chassis and buy a scope with 16x or greater optic power.
You'll quickly get bored at 800 and move to 1000 yds ..probably inside 30 minutes.

I'm not kidding about recoil so I'll close with this: Doing damage to yourself ought to ring alarms..that 416 kicks like a horse.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,485 Posts
this is like saying a NASCAR RACE was won by a STOCK mustang......STOCK is a class not fact.
the rifle in the match was a $1600 plus dollar ACTION AND BBL in a custom stock, TRIGGER UPGRADE and expensive bipod.
" Wise was shooting a Savage Arms rifle, chambered in .338 Lapua with the stock 26-inch, 1:9-inch barrel, Accurate Rifle Systems chassis, Rempel bipod and Rifle Basix trigger. "
$1500 CHASSIS
$400 BIPOD
and since NO ONE SHOT AT 2000 PLUS IN THE 2 PRIOR YEARS....it is a record....

AND a very experienced shooter

I don't recall the chassis or the expensive bipod but if a $400 bipod makes that much difference I guess I need to get one. If you had looked down the bore of that rifle you would have been shocked. It was a stock barrel that was absolutely crap. The owner was laughing and showed it to us. One land was missing from the throat to about 4 inches forward. In any case since he was shooting against guys with the same or greater experience levels and a ton of rifles in the $5-20K price range I'd say he was running a pretty stock setup. The only one not slapping him on the back and laughing was David Tubb who seemed to be pretty upset.

In any case I'm not saying the 416 rem is a good long range gun. I'm saying that if it shoots ok in close its worth it for the owner to take a shot at longer range. Sometimes you're surprised and sometimes disappointed but you never know til you try. If you're trying to compete with the pros its a slightly different matter but the OP didn't say he was planning to compete, just asking if the round would work. 800yds is nothing so my opinion is that it should do just fine with a bit of practice, good loads and a good rifle. No need to get too wound up.

Frank
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
36 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
Yes, correct, I didn't mean to use this cartridge for competition. From reading all the comments I gather that maybe the cartridge is not the problem but rather the rifle, which is a standard model 70 Winchester with a 1-6 x 24 hunting scope, set up for hunting distances of 1-200 yds.

But what about the cartridge? Consider only the cartridge. If chambered in a platform set up for long range with a long competition barrel, muzzle break, competition chassis, and proper sniper scope, etc... How about that? I keep thinking that if a proper rifle and set-up can lob a big fat .50cal BMG accurately for more than a mile, why not the .416 rem mag ?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16,897 Posts
Yes, correct, I didn't mean to use this cartridge for competition. From reading all the comments I gather that maybe the cartridge is not the problem but rather the rifle, which is a standard model 70 Winchester with a 1-6 x 24 hunting scope, set up for hunting distances of 1-200 yds.

But what about the cartridge? Consider only the cartridge. If chambered in a platform set up for long range with a long competition barrel, muzzle break, competition chassis, and proper sniper scope, etc... How about that? I keep thinking that if a proper rifle and set-up can lob a big fat .50cal BMG accurately for more than a mile, why not the .416 rem mag ?
Not one for the academic feasibility when my wallet shouts...use a proven long range caliber like 338 Lapua in a suitable rifle platform w/ suitable optics. But if this is a case of "Watch This, I want to do it", then all factors I'd take serious consideration are out the window.

But on the issue of costly bipods. I bought the Atlas ($300) and I can shoot a Harris bipod as good as the Atlas for $200 cheaper so while Atlas is a quality item and not a stamped item like Harris, I don't get a $200 improvement on accuracy at 1000 yds. Just saying............ and while I am flogging myself on bipods, I shoot off a sandbag from the prone so much more accurately at 1000 yds than I do on a Harris or Atlas bipod. So...since I am not a PRS shooter and moving about or wanna be sniper, a bipod is not a huge answer belly shooting on a mat from 1000 yds at skeet birds on the bank.

So if you have not bought a bipod, test some before you buy and be sure a bipod does something you need it to do .

And to add insult to my wallet and heresy to all Atlas owners...I bought a Chinese clone of the same Atlas bipod that I paid $300 for. The clone works just fine and does everything the costly Atlas does.

Both real and clone Atlas bipods hang on my chassis rifles with spigot mounts. I hang them there as I shoot off the sandbag just to screw with the heads of gear heads who come by : "Why don't you use the bipod?" "Cause I shoot better off the sand bag". Crushed ...they never return to interrupt further shooting. I think of those bipods as Gear Head repellent
 
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
Top