Gunboards Forums banner
1 - 20 of 73 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
715 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Let me first start by saying i have lots of pistols in a full range of power. From the 7.62 nagant to the 45 colt. I ccw only 2 though a cz82 (makarov 9mm) and a glock 23 (40 s and w). We were at my range testing hollowpoints yesterday. The 45 in a kimber 1911. We shot standard and +p load hollowpoints. None of which would expand in either soft wood or sand. The 40 we tested with ranger law enforcement hollowpoints. they more than doubled. I don't think there is any competition in fmj as the 45 will win. But the 40 seems to beat the 45 when it comes to hollowpoints. i just don't think the 45 has enough velocity even with the +p loads to expand properly. here is a pic of the 40 vs a evil tyrant grapefruit
 

Attachments

·
Gold Bullet Member and Noted Curmudgeon
Joined
·
100,657 Posts
I have done some shooting of Federal HydraShoks in my 1911A1. They expand significantly in the media I used for test. I would expect 40 S&W or 357 SIG to expand significantly better and more reliably than any .45 ACP, including HydraShoks.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,271 Posts
Hollowpoints are designed to expand by hydraulic action, not form hitting solids. For better "testing" shoot them into something filled with water, or something fully "soaked". People are over 70% water/fluid.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
715 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
oldstuffer. I understand that hollowpoints need soft media to work, material is forced in the center while there is little resistance on the side. fine sand seems to work well with the 40 but why not the 45. here are pics for comparison
 

Attachments

·
Silver Bullet member
Joined
·
6,104 Posts
Why anyone nowadays would sacrifice magazine capacity to carry a gun in .45 ACP is beyond me, especially as real life gun fight stats from the FBI show that only about 10% of fired rounds actually hit their targets. That's one round in 10, and they only got 7 or 8 in Ole Slabsides. hmm........


Stick with the .40, or if that ain't hot enough fer ya, the 10mm Auto.

The Expert
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,525 Posts
Why anyone nowadays would sacrifice magazine capacity to carry a gun in .45 ACP is beyond me, especially as real life gun fight stats from the FBI show that only about 10% of fired rounds actually hit their targets. That's one round in 10, and they only got 7 or 8 in Ole Slabsides. hmm........


Stick with the .40, or if that ain't hot enough fer ya, the 10mm Auto.


The Expert
While I don't disagree with you about the 10mm auto I don't agree about mag capacity. Most CCW are ~8 rounds, and snubbies are 6, if not 5 rounds. They are still effective.

Most fights are over in the first few rounds and are at very close range. I wouldn't feel under gunned with a .45 auto or even revolver (as long as I had practice).

A tool is as only as good as its user.
 

·
Gold Bullet Member and Noted Curmudgeon
Joined
·
100,657 Posts
Why anyone nowadays would sacrifice magazine capacity to carry a gun in .45 ACP is beyond me, especially as real life gun fight stats from the FBI show that only about 10% of fired rounds actually hit their targets. That's one round in 10, and they only got 7 or 8 in Ole Slabsides. hmm........


Stick with the .40, or if that ain't hot enough fer ya, the 10mm Auto.

The Expert
Well, most of the fights the Feebs take statistics from involve (a) Feebs; (b) cops; and (c) criminals. None of whom (except for the murderers like Lon Horiuchi they keep for the times women need to be killed without warning) are noted for actually doing much careful shooting.

Admittdly it is a sample of one, and annecdotal, not part of a study by the Feebs, but the only time I ever had to use a handgun for a human target, it was a one shot deal - one shot, target down and dead. 45 with GI hardball, at that. I can still, some four decades (actually - a few weeks short of 41 years as of today) later, close my eyes and see the "dink with a gun" as my driver called him, going off the back of a little step-through Honda motor bike...

7+1 is plenty. Unless you are expecting bands of zombies or can't shoot straight under stress. If it is zombies, you don't want a pistol anyhow - some sort of belt-fed piece strikes me as better fo that scenario. If you can't shoot straight under stress, maybe you shouldn't be carrying a gun at all.
 

·
Diamond with Oak Clusters Bullet Member
Joined
·
74,962 Posts
While I don't disagree with you about the 10mm auto I don't agree about mag capacity. Most CCW are ~8 rounds, and snubbies are 6, if not 5 rounds. They are still effective.

Most fights are over in the first few rounds and are at very close range. I wouldn't feel under gunned with a .45 auto or even revolver (as long as I had practice).

A tool is as only as good as its user.
Very true. Especially concerning the user.
 

·
Platinum Bullet member
Joined
·
10,539 Posts
Yes. Given the very close range of such violent encounters, the caliber isn't nearly as important as the resolve to actually pull the trigger. If you still wish to discuss caliber, then it's whatever you can consistently hit with. A .46 hyper-expanding mastadon whacker that misses the target by .25 inch means squat when compared to a 38 in the boiler room. SW
 

·
Silver Bullet member
Joined
·
6,104 Posts
If you can't shoot straight under stress....
Most people can't. Military, police, and civilian gunfight experience all confirms this. The ratio of rounds fired to enemy killed has been estimated at 1000:1 in WWII and 50,000:1 in Vietnam....guess the police ain't doing so bad after all when viewed in this light.

A .45 will certainly do the job once it hits, and I wouldn't feel undergunned if I had one in my hand in a gunfight, but a lot has changed in the past 100 years, including ammunition and weapons technology.

Simply put: there are more efficient ways to accomplish the same job today. If less weight, more rounds, and better technology weren't important, then the military and police would still be carrying the Walker Colt (all 5 pounds of it!).

Why not take advantage of 100 years of progress, and carry a high-capacity auto? Law enforcement sure does.

The Expert
 

·
Gold bullet with Oak Clusters member
Joined
·
15,560 Posts
I have two Kahr pistols pretty much identical the 40 and the 45. I like the 40 s&w best.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
715 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
unbekannt,
there are plenty of guns with high capacity that are subcompact as long as they are not 45acp. my glock 23 holds 13 +1 and my cz82 holds 12 +1. Both of which are easily concealable. I live in the great state of tennessee. My permit is a carry permit, i am not limited to only conceal carry but i do most of the time as i don't think it is wise to advertise.

Kuntzer
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,147 Posts
Without getting into the terminal ballistics debate, one reason a person miight choose a .45 acp over a .40 S&W is the 1911 platform. To my knowledge, which could be outdated and someone will surely say so if it is, no one is making a .40 S&W 1911 pistol. Many people including many "experts" consider the 1911 to be the finest combat pistol design extant and will carry nothing but one of its many variations. This includes many tactical operations and police personnel. And with all of the 1911 models being sold today it must still be very popular in the civilian market also. Some of course are 9MM, or .38 super, but I would bet the vast majority are in .45 acp.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
715 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
s l your knowledge is a little dated. Cz ,sig sauer, EAA, and taurus to name a few have the 1911/40 combo. I do agree the 1911 is one of the finest combat arms ever made. The berreta 92 and the glock also rank imho in that group.
Kuntzer
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,147 Posts
Kuntzer, Thank you for the info.

Was not aware that CZ made a 1911, the CZ75 is not a 1911 based pistol. A search of their website does not come up with a 1911.

The Dan Wesson that CZ USA sells, but does not make, does indeed come in .40 S&W you are quite correct but lists it as discontinued as of 2010 so if one wants one they better get it soon.

EAA makes the Witness CZ75 based pistols which is not the same will have to look into a 1911 model. I do not find a 1911 EAA product on their site.

A quick glance at the Sig site shows a number of 1911 models but none show in .40 S&W.

A quick look at Taurus' website shows 1911 in .45 acp, 9MM and .38 super but no .40 S&W.

I do however find a few others. STI makes a .40 S&W, Kimber, Springfield and PAra-Ord makes one so you are correct they are out there.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
715 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I was referring to the dan wesson, I don't think the 40 is a good choice for the 1911 as the velocity difference is great. I don't think the 45 is a good choice for the glock. every gun has its cartridge that it likes. it is hard to design a gun that will work with any caliber. the 40 and the 9 are more similar. while 45 has a very different velocity and bullet weight. Personally i am found of big ole bullets coming out of my peacemaker.

Kuntzer
 

·
Gold Bullet Member and Noted Curmudgeon
Joined
·
100,657 Posts
Most people can't. Military, police, and civilian gunfight experience all confirms this. The ratio of rounds fired to enemy killed has been estimated at 1000:1 in WWII and 50,000:1 in Vietnam....guess the police ain't doing so bad after all when viewed in this light.

A .45 will certainly do the job once it hits, and I wouldn't feel undergunned if I had one in my hand in a gunfight, but a lot has changed in the past 100 years, including ammunition and weapons technology.

Simply put: there are more efficient ways to accomplish the same job today. If less weight, more rounds, and better technology weren't important, then the military and police would still be carrying the Walker Colt (all 5 pounds of it!).

Why not take advantage of 100 years of progress, and carry a high-capacity auto? Law enforcement sure does.

The Expert
"Law enforcement" is a poor exemplar. Most can't shoot and substitute "firepower" for competence. Remember what I said about "maybe you shouldn't carry a gun if you can't shoot under stress"?

The statistics for small arms rounds expended for each dead or wounded foe in WWI, WWII, Korea or Vietnam offer ZIP in the way of useful information for civilian (or for that matter) LEO choice. They involve military conflicts with many rounds being fired from belt-fed auto weapons being used for supprssive fire (plus, come Vietnam and the adoption of the Matty Mattel, a lot spray and pray by indivduals). The day we as individuals break out the M-60 and hose down the neighborhood as a standard response - ain't gonna happen.

I've got a Hi-cap and like it, fun gun. A P-35. But, it still serves my purposes no better than my 1911A1. Or for that matter, neither really does anything (except carry concealed better) than my Smith N-frame in 45LC or the more compact Model 19 in 357 Magnum. Cops need to spend more time on the range, including shooting under stressed circumstances WITH SERVICE ARM, and less fantasizing about taking out a squad or two without reloading.

Oh - a Walker doesn't weigh 5 pounds. But no, we don't require that much bulk and weight on a cop's belt - or mine. But if you can't carry the under three pounds and limited bulk of a 1911, maybe you should start doing a little exercising and mild strength conditioning.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
715 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
"The statistics for small arms rounds expended for each dead or wounded foe in WWI, WWII, Korea or Vietnam offer ZIP in the way of useful information for civilian (or for that matter) LEO choice. They involve military conflicts with many rounds being fired from belt-fed auto weapons being used for supprssive fire (plus, come Vietnam and the adoption of the Matty Mattel, a lot spray and pray by indivduals). The day we as individuals break out the M-60 and hose down the neighborhood as a standard response - ain't gonna happen."
Agreed, don't forget the use of auto to cut down trees and foilage.
"I've got a Hi-cap and like it, fun gun. A P-35. But, it still serves my purposes no better than my 1911A1. Or for that matter, neither really does anything (except carry concealed better) than my Smith N-frame in 45LC or the more compact Model 19 in 357"
also agreed
I have said this before
if someone is pointing a gun at me whether it be a glock or flintlock, rest assured i am going to listen to what they have to say
 
1 - 20 of 73 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top