[Anomalous]

Does anyone have loadings for 38 S&W in 200 LRN ? My friend has a bullet mold for that size that he cast up a bunch for his 38 SP and 357. He also has a couple Webleys and an Enfield that He'd like to make up some 38 200s for. I myself have a Webley and a Thames that I want to load for but the biggest bullets I have are 158gr LHPs and I only have Unique powder to work with. Any info will be helpful thanks.

 

[89blazin]

158gr bullet is the heaviest I've seen published for a 38 S&W round. Here's a post where they talk about exactly what you are looking for:

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-472586.html

 

[Ranger Z]

I have an old Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook that lists loads for a 195 gr. bullet #358430 which is a round nose.

For the 38 special it shows a start load of 3.4grs of Unique giving 650fps at 10,000cup and a max load of 4.5grs giving 830fps at 15,600cup.

With the .357 Magnum it shows a starting load of 5.0grs of Unique giving 985fps at 21,000cup and a Max load of 6.5grs of unique giving 1,185fps at 37,700cup.

I have never loaded theses and I send you this with all the usual warnings and disclaimers.

 

[Hawkins]

The 49 edition says that that is a good load for 38/200 webleys. If it were me I would stay below 4gr.
If the sight are correct for lower loads enjoy!.

 

[Hawkins]

I just dug out the 49 th edition of Lymans. All the above loads are TOO HOT!.
With their 195 gr lead bullet 1.7 gr of Unique give s 516 fps @ 8,100 psi
The max loading is 1.9 gr opf Unique giving 605 fps @ 12,800 psi.
All the recent manuals seem to have reduced the loadings since they
have begun to measure and post pressures.

 

[Ranger Z]

I think it would be a good idea to inject some clarification here.

What Hawkins is referring to is the 38 S&W loads. The 1.7 to 1.9grs of Unique would be suitable for the Webley revolvers. What I listed are loads for the 38 SPECIAL and .357 Magnum.

It is easy to get confused between the 38 S&W and the 38 S&W Special. Pressures for the 38 Special are much higher than those for the older 38 S&W.

Be careful out there.

 

[Hawkins]

But the man asked about a 38 S&W.

 

[Anomalous]

158gr bullet is the heaviest I've seen published for a 38 S&W round. Here's a post where they talk about exactly what you are looking for:

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-472586.html

Thanks 89blazin, good link to a good discussion. My friend and I are trying to duplicate an historical load for the British guns we have. I spoke with him on the phone this morning and he had made up some rounds with 2.0 unique to test tomorrow/Sunday, I'll post the results. They might even talk about it on his radio show in the afternoon.

 

[Anomalous]

I'll relay all the data you folks have posted. Chances are he has a copy of the Lyman manual laying around his house. Thanks every one I new I could count on Gunboards people.

 

[DK PHILLIPS]

357 200's all i ever loaded

 

[noelekal]

I'm loading .38 S&W this evening. I've worked up to 3.1 grains of Unique with the now obsolete 200 grain Remington lead round nose .358 diameter component bullet intended for the .38 Special. These were tested in both a 2-inch Colt Banker's Special and a 5-inch Webley Mark IV a few years back. They gave good accuracy and, in the case of the Webley Mark IV, they shot to point of aim perfectly. Ejection was normal and observation of the primers revealed no pressure signs. I never shot any over the chronograph so can't provide velocity information. I do have supplies of this particular handload left on hand and intend to chronograph the load soon.

The 3.1 grain charge weight with Unique was listed as max in an ancient work by perhaps Naramore or Barnes. I can't find it tonight and can't recall. I've also seen internet postings where folks have taken the charge weight of Unique to 3.5 with 200 grain bullets.

I've got a batch of cast .360 diameter 200 grain bullets on hand and some "new" Unique so will be retesting by working up from a lower charge weight. Unique seems to generate higher velocities and perhaps higher pressures in it's current "cleaner burning" guise so care must be taken in working up loads that previously were satisfactory.

The Webley groups well with .358 diameter lead SWC bullets but will shoot 8-10 inches low.

 

[Anomalous]

I'm loading .38 S&W this evening. I've worked up to 3.1 grains of Unique with the now obsolete 200 grain Remington lead round nose .358 diameter component bullet intended for the .38 Special. These were tested in both a 2-inch Colt Banker's Special and a 5-inch Webley Mark IV a few years back. They gave good accuracy and, in the case of the Webley Mark IV, they shot to point of aim perfectly. Ejection was normal and observation of the primers revealed no pressure signs. I never shot any over the chronograph so can't provide velocity information. I do have supplies of this particular handload left on hand and intend to chronograph the load soon.

The 3.1 grain charge weight with Unique was listed as max in an ancient work by perhaps Naramore or Barnes. I can't find it tonight and can't recall. I've also seen internet postings where folks have taken the charge weight of Unique to 3.5 with 200 grain bullets.

I've got a batch of cast .360 diameter 200 grain bullets on hand and some "new" Unique so will be retesting by working up from a lower charge weight. Unique seems to generate higher velocities and perhaps higher pressures in it's current "cleaner burning" guise so care must be taken in working up loads that previously were satisfactory.

The Webley groups well with .358 diameter lead SWC bullets but will shoot 8-10 inches low.

My friend and I did test some rounds we had made up a week ago. Mine were 158 Speer lhp and his were heavier hollow base wad cutters. He ran 2.0 grains unique and was getting flattened primers, Mine were at 2.2 and didn't show any signs of pressure which was curious because he said mine felt a little hotter than his. I'm wondering if there isn't a head space issue with one of his guns.

 

[noelekal]

Could be headspace. Could be bullet differences: weight, diameter, bearing surfaces on the bore, alloy, lube. Could be different brands of primers. Could even be differences in perceiving the way the powder measure was set or the manner in which the scale was used. Could also be differences in the lots of Unique used in the loads.

I haven't completely sorted it out yet in my mind but Unique may not behave exactly the same these days as it did before. It's suppose to be "cleaner burning" but I retested a batch of .38 Special handloads using Unique in charge weights of which I was very familiar. I obtained startlingly higher velocities over the chronograph with the newer can of powder. This was using the same type primers and same bullets I've cast, even from the same batch I cast years before. More testing is needed but familiar loads may take less Unique than they previously did for same performance.

Have read on forums of changes in 2400, Blue Dot, and other powders and mostly poo-pooed the notion that there were any significant changes in burning rates. From a liability standpoint, it doesn't add up that a company would sell a product recognized for a level of performance and so labeled but now having significantly different performance characteristics. Seems like they should have renamed it 2401 or something. I tested new 2400 against an older lot of Hercules 2400 and didn't find any real difference that couldn't be explained by lot-to-lot variations. The Unique-fueled loads I've tested so far are showing 150-200 fps difference using the same charge weight between new cans of Unique and older cans. I have several cans of Hercules produced Unique on hand along with a couple of recently purchased cans of Unique and intend to explore this further.

Meanwhile it is important to work up loads carefully watching for "all the usual suspect" pressure signs all while realizing that pressure signs aren't reliable proof of much of anything.

 

[The Expert]

Could be headspace. Could be bullet differences: weight, diameter, bearing surfaces on the bore, alloy, lube. Could be different brands of primers. Could even be differences in perceiving the way the powder measure was set or the manner in which the scale was used. Could also be differences in the lots of Unique used in the loads.

I haven't completely sorted it out yet in my mind but Unique may not behave exactly the same these days as it did before. It's suppose to be "cleaner burning" but I retested a batch of .38 Special handloads using Unique in charge weights of which I was very familiar. I obtained startlingly higher velocities over the chronograph with the newer can of powder. This was using the same type primers and same bullets I've cast, even from the same batch I cast years before. More testing is needed but familiar loads may take less Unique than they previously did for same performance.

Have read on forums of changes in 2400, Blue Dot, and other powders and mostly poo-pooed the notion that there were any significant changes in burning rates. From a liability standpoint, it doesn't add up that a company would sell a product recognized for a level of performance and so labeled but now having significantly different performance characteristics. Seems like they should have renamed it 2401 or something. I tested new 2400 against an older lot of Hercules 2400 and didn't find any real difference that couldn't be explained by lot-to-lot variations. The Unique-fueled loads I've tested so far are showing 150-200 fps difference using the same charge weight between new cans of Unique and older cans. I have several cans of Hercules produced Unique on hand along with a couple of recently purchased cans of Unique and intend to explore this further.

Meanwhile it is important to work up loads carefully watching for "all the usual suspect" pressure signs all while realizing that pressure signs aren't reliable proof of much of anything.

Very interesting observations. Thanks for sharing them with us. :thumbsup:

 

[Anomalous]

My friend is a big fan of unique powder and uses it more than any other type. I will ask him if he has noticed any changes in power lately.

 

[Hawkins]

It takes a lot of shooting at 3gr a pop to use up a pound of powder. I would check the velocity and stick
with the same powder batch. I use Unique in a lot of different cartridges but am still working on powder
I bought years ago. The powder must burn correctly at the low (10,000 psi or so) pressure. If you don't
believe it try somthing like 4227 in lower pressure loadings. A large percentage dosen't burn but does change
color. I repeat measure velocity, A Chrony costs less than $100 will save your pistol and you will learn a lot.

 

[swabbie]

I cast 200 gr .365 bullets which I size down to .362 for all of my 38 S&W chambered pistols.
I found a load online which I will list....3.0 to 3.3 gr of Herco for use in Victories,Webleys and Enfields... 2.1 gr Herco for use in Iver Johnson, H$R, S&W etc top breaks.
The top load of 3.3 grains will bring the stronger pistols to 38 special performance..

All the above data should be approached with usual warnings, but it has worked well for me. The 2.1 grain load is pleasant shooting and is my wife's favorite load in my Regulation Police

Hope this helps