[Greg Myers]

I've noticed on the last ditch 25th's that some have chatter in the wrist while others don't. Is this a product of the "cottage industry", i e different person finishing the stock or is this more prevelant in certain serial ranges?

 

[albacore]

Have you seen "Chatter marks, the thread..."?

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=31774&highlight=chatter+marks

 

[Sonoda_otaku]

Chatter appears earlier in some manufactures than others. It seems to have depended on the standards of the particular arsenal. You see chatter on some earlier manufactures, but others like Toyo Kogyo were clean and smooth right up to the last day of production. I have a 37th series TJK with chatter marks, and I have a Toyo Kogyo 35th series (sn 19645) with out even a hint.

 

[03man]

Degree of chatter would depend on the condition of the stock machine, who ran it and how fast it was being run, and the degree of after sanding it received.

 

[albacore]

I need to get it out and look, but I don't think there's any chatter on my late 25th series.

 

[Greg Myers]

Thanks for the info guys. My question here deals with 25th Kokuras, some show an attempt at removing the chatter, with varying degrees of success, while others are full blown chatter, just wondering if serial range has anything to do with it.

 

[Greg Myers]

If you have a 25th, why not list the serial range and if it has chatter or not, maybe we can establish a pattern or lack of.

Mine is 74,000 , chatter almost completely smoothed out.

 

[albacore]

SN 51911 and no sign of chatter.

 

[strangms]

Mine is 41240, and has the chatter.

strangms

 

[Sonoda_otaku]

Mine is 41240, and has the chatter.

strangms

Lower number and more significant chatter...

The plot thickens

 

[Greg Myers]

I found a few on the auction sites, all in the 60k range.
63k smooth
65k chatter
66k chatter
67k chatter

 

[vintagemc313]

I would think that there are just too many variables to pinpoint chatter within a serial # range. I'm sure they weren't all cut on the same machine. Also, take into account wear and tear on a particular machine which would make fit and tolerance different, bit sharpness, user error (i.e. speed, and position of the cutter), different supervisor's and their individual opinions on what was acceptable methods.

I edited this, because after I read more carefully, I see that Don (03man) basically is saying the same thing before I did.

 

[Greg Myers]

I would think that there are just too many variables to pinpoint chatter within a serial # range. I'm sure they weren't all cut on the same machine. Also, take into account wear and tear on a particular machine which would make fit and tolerance different, bit sharpness, user error (i.e. speed, and position of the cutter), different supervisor's and their individual opinions on what was acceptable methods.

Very true, I'm not trying to pinpoint the range though, just trying to see if it's completely random.
The type 99 is known for variation, many much less visible than stock chatter, quite a few of these variations are indeed nailed down within serial ranges for certain series. It's what makes the 99 such an interesting rifle.

 

[Mike Rockhill]

I believe that the chatter is totally random, but the vast majority have it well defined. It also should be noted that chattering appears in kokura rifles starting in the late 23rd series through the end of production, and also at tokyo juki kogyo (both 37th and 27th series) and jinsen (usually just remnants of it) The only noted exceptions that I know of are the 3 rifles in the 83-84k range with toyo kogyo subcontract stocks. Those do not have it at all.

 

[Greg Myers]

Thanks Mike, was hoping you would chime in. My feelings were the same, that it was likely random. In my original post I mentioned the so called "cottage industry", parts, stocks, ect. were likely supplied and worked by a host of individuals, with all the variables mentioned by others thrown in to boot.


By the way, I have a TK 35th in the 54k range with remnants of chatter in the wrist. Can get a pic later (if the rain will ever stop) if theres any interest in seeing it.

 

[03man]

I don't buy the cottage industry for rifle stocks. Too complicated, even the finishing.

 

[Greg Myers]

I doubt we'll ever know for sure.

 

[Mike Rockhill]

I think the cottage industry thing is misinformation as well. Where I believe it came from was perhaps training rifle production that was done by many different small shops with "god-only-knows" methods and suppliers. It seems that many occupying GIs including some noted ordnance personnel, felt that the cast iron training rifles they saw scattered about the country and in these tiny shops were actually last ditch weapons. It is kind of understandable because what other country has such a number of training rifles? None, and certainly not as functional as the japanese ones. I think these conclusions then snowballed into a whole bunch of rumors regarding dangerous rifles and cottage industry and the like.

 

[Greg Myers]

I supose it depends on how broad a definition is applied to the term. Major components were no doubt produced and assembled within the arsenals. I think it's plausible some parts were supplied from outside the system.
In WW1 the Germans utilized numerous small firms to produce rifle components and free up resources within the arsenals. I think the British did so as well in WW2 and no doubt many others through history for different reasons. ( increase production / disperse resources ).
What the Japanese did, or were capable of in this regard, I'll leave to others to debate.