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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
http://magsafeonline.com/prices_specs.php

I"m not advocating the use of bullets made out of epoxy or birdshot pellets. but notice the velocities. they are well proven to be real, too. It's their claim to fame. the bullets, however, should be made out of solid aluminum rod, on a lathe, with a hp and a large, conical base cavity, ala the THV Arcane bullet. That will incease the velocity with the same 45 gr bullet weight.

notice the 2500 fps 357 sig. With the hollowbase-cavity trick, that would be 2700 fps, safely. .22 hornet RIFLE type impact from a ccw pistol Iat pistol type ranges). No I am not talking about hunting varmints at 100 yds with a ccw pistol. I'm talking about getting the sort of performance on human bodies, with a pistol, at 10m and less, which everyone says "cannot be done".. the hell it can't. but such ammo is AP, so nobody will market it to the public
 

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In any given caliber you can only get a certain spread of energies 9mm X 19 is going to be 400-420 +/-20% ish ft lb .. couple reasons for that.. First, there is no magic, second the energy of the powder and the barrel length are what create the energy .. you can only go up to a certain pressure on the action, the action has springs and the slide has weight "every action has an equal and opposite reaction"
The Mechanism of the pistol has a designed , calculated , engineered sweet spot on the energy it can handle.. to little and it short strokes .. to much and it comes apart .. a bit up from short stroke is unreliable feeding and operation in general .. a little down from comes apart is beat it to death and batter and peen the frame and down from that is batter and pean the frame sooner that otherwise.

More barrel more energy and every handgun is a compromise, a well matched powder is more efficient , the usual trick, lighter bullet faster bullet because E = mv^2 M= mass isn't squared and v^2 equals velocity is squared.. as the bullet weight goes down linearly, the velocity goes up exponentially in theory you will get to a mass of 0 and the V of the speed of light. In practice the laws of thermodynamics apply and inefficiencies therefore must exist, and you can only do so much with springs and slide weight to handle the energy and remain mechanically reliable and chambers has designed pressure limits .. because steel is heavy and all handguns are a compromise.
Nothing is free.. lighter the bullet for it's cross section and shape and the lower the ballistic coefficient. No matter how super duper the bullet at some reasonable range the lighter bullet will slow down so much faster than the heavier bullet that their speeds will match m but well before that the heavier slower bullet will have as much energy as the light fast bullet, and the heavy bullet will have increasingly more energy than the light bullet... so any advantage of the light bullet as far as energy goes is going to be a short range, or at least nonexistent at long ranges. That because every handgun is a compromise.. there is no free lunch.
For there to be any magic on the target end you have two thresholds 2600 fps ( as the bullet goes thru the target , after impact) and 500 ft lbs ( likewise .. as it is passing thru) .. the whole point of the exercise is to use a bullet to convey energy into the target.. pistol bullets commonly come to a dead stop in under 12 inches of people penetration.. that is shedding speed fast .. and if a bullet penetrates and exits it takes some portion of that energy , meant for the target, someplace else, but definitely not in the target,
So for that portion of the path thru the body that a bullet is going faster than 2600 fps you can have hydrostatic shock that manifests as a pressure wave thru water/ bodily fluid that increases the wound channel and physical damage. Once you dump 500 ft lb of energy in the target you start to see hydrostatic shock manifested as neurological damage.. Any hit will give you good ol' regular shock and if the target is a person the effects, both in severity and onset are highly variable.. sometimes it is like flipping a light switch.. sometimes 20 minutes later when the adrenalin wears off, sometimes never. Extra bonus points for organs.. angle, apparel, bones, extremities, all effect penetration.. depth to an extra points organ is highly variable.. and you could get a through and through in the calf that makes the bullet think the whole body is less than 2 inchs thick and doesn't have bones or thru a heavy coat from the side thru a blocking forearm and two coat thicknesses and then upper arm and two coat thicknesses , ribs and a coat thickness and flesh and fat that makes the bullet think people are more cotton plant and bone than flesh and blood.

More is better except you have to carry it. 9mm and 45acp are in the same energy range hardball 45 is like a 9mm JHP and JHP doesn't penetrate as far as hardball all things being equal.. everything with handguns is a compromise. There is no magic.

If you need more gun, you need more gun.. if you need a smaller lighter gun you need more bullets .. you got to carry it, and you got to get it in front of you pointing the right way. Every bullet and every pistol will be better or worst than the next one at some point under some conditions.

turns out what matters is the person , their skills, their training.

it is not all about how you will react.. and how you will initially react is not unknowable and has nothing to do with your personality or your astrological sign.. there is a perceptible gap between muscle memory and reflex, and conscious chosen action. This is why folks train.. to fill that gap with meaningful life saving action and response. You also offload the thinking brain when you have automatic responses, which means you get a faster thinking response. The trick is to provide the body and mind something to do when fight or flight is triggered .. the body and mind are going to do something anyway when you are confronted with a life or death situation, why not teach it to do something helpful.. anybody can void their bladder ( which is actually a popular body response in that gap unless it is busy with other things, like drawing a pistol).

simca, .. depends on what you call performance if the prize is for the fastest bullet, the fastest bullet doesn't always win because it doesn't go as far and sometimes the finish line is farther than you think and bullet energy is sometimes more helpful in a different deeper part of the body than blowing up the first bone it finds and stopping in that vicinity. .. weight to cross section is a significant factor in penetration. there is no magic ..

If you are trained and practiced you will , in all likelihood perform as trained.. if you are not trained (and I mean trained by somebody that knows how to train and knows what they are doing) God only knows what will happen. I can't think of a single human skill that does not profit from contact with professional level training, some access to the lessons learned and the technique and practical wisdom of those that have come before.

There are no bad guns that commit crimes all by themselves and there are no hero guns that defend you without assistance just because they are the cool model, and the hot caliber, and you feed them +p JHP ammo every night before you tuck them into the nightstand.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
since 45 ball will shoot thru TWO men, giving up half of its penetration is a good idea. 500+ ft lb 9mm loads ( reliaable of function and safe to fire) have existed for decades now, so, frankly, your pompous post is just a crock. You just have to know how to make the bullets, that's all. A large hollowbase cavity not only makes the bullet lighter, it reduces bore friction, increases gas seal, and makes room for a LOT more powder. The 356 TSW case is .100" longer, and much strong than that of the 9x19, but any 9mm barrel can be rechambered to take the 356. With short bullets, the case capacity is thus increased a LOT, even tho the OAL of the loaded rd stays the same. :) so your numbers just went to crap, pard. which is what they were to start with. Given such a case, 600+ ft lb loads, in a regular 9mm pistol, are very much feasible to attain. so you're off by at least 50% with your claims of "upper limits" to what can be done. Rather like a guy who runs a 15 second 100 yd dash and thinks that's as fast as it can be done. :) In other words, I just blew you out of the water.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
the original glaser 9mm, actually chronoed by the Feds, was 96 grs at about 1800 fps (i don't remember exactly, but it was very, very hot stuff) Jack Cannon just disregarded the SAAMI specs, cause he sold his ammo only to cops, and they had to sign a waivier of responsibillity paper before taking delivery. while not safe in poorly supported chambers like the Beretta, they were fine in P35 Brownings and the like. Using the 356 TSW case eliminates worries about blowing cases at the feed ramp. Glaser's 9mm rds were 700 ft lbs, man.
 

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Interesting....
I use 45 FMJ's 180 to 220 grains make two holes front can't be reached .....punches through every thing in between.....
First shots in the open...rest behind cover...
Windshields, doors, objects can be penetrated..not refracted to angles or reflected off target.
Good enough for wars....
Lots of shooting experience....lower coast

Too light too fast... No penetration in barriers....

Not havering the experience with their use....they could have special purposes ?
But I would not want to depend on them in a barrier influenced environment of my house!

I'll pick my shooting lanes and follow through back stops...
 

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Nobody has addressed the issue of where those hypersonic bullets are likely to hit.

There is no time for the muzzle to rise from recoil before the bullet leaves the barrel. This ALWAYS translates to low hits from handguns.

Unless your sights have a WHOLE LOT of adjustment in them or your gun was specifically built to handle the velocity, I figure the groupings are going to be a couple feet low at even ten yards.

No thanks. I would prefer to hit what I am shooting AT.
 

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It is to be noted that simca is, as usual, full of it. And BANNED - this must have been one of his last posts. Ammo sergeant, like or approve of her life-style or not, is knowledgeable and worth listening to. simca - wasn't... JMO
 

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Well, due to my lifestyle, there may be a slight difference with the internal ballistics.. but the external and terminal ballistics should be good. But, thank you for the kind words Clyde.
 

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It is to be noted that simca is, as usual, full of it. And BANNED - this must have been one of his last posts. Ammo sergeant, like or approve of her life-style or not, is knowledgeable and worth listening to. simca - wasn't... JMO
And her lifestyle matters how and to who?
 

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Well, due to my lifestyle, there may be a slight difference with the internal ballistics.. but the external and terminal ballistics should be good. But, thank you for the kind words Clyde.
You are welcome. i try to give credit where due, and you have shown yourself as knowledgeable and worth listening to.

And her lifestyle matters how and to who?
Not to me, but have seen a few comments.
 

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Shtf....who or what life styles that were ...will be......everything will be based on trust.....

starting over most everything even human relationships will be retested and still built on trust / needs of integration....

isn't an issue with me .......I'll be and have been dealing with trusting the ones that know how to treat individuals
Correctly....
.excepting every thing on trust in God to trusting in people needs surviving the problems at hand...
As I said before in other threads .... I'm not setting my self as Judge .....or measuring others personal decisions....just mine .....not my job....<>< DK
 

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Hey Guys.. relax.. doesn't bother me, Matt Dillon had enemies and Billy the Kid had friends.. not everybody is comfortable with everybody else. Have you ever noticed that the only "normal" folks you know, are the ones your don't know all that well? Everybody has a closet about something, even those that are out about everything ( that they dare to share) .. Everybody has folks who don't like them about something.. My God!, Lawyers for example ( sorry Clyde :) ) Clyde has been very clear that Clyde didn't like lawyers or being one or the profession, when he was one.. I assume for sufficient reasons. And I do Treasure my Right to express my opinion about lawyers.. so I have to respect that Right with others on other things.

If I was going to worry about this kind of thing, and I do actually sometimes, It would be about the fact that so few women participate on here ... way below the percentage in the shooting sports.. and we need all the votes we can get... that is all I ever ask.. just try not to alienate potential voters .. not everybody is single issue.. so sometimes small things, small insensitivities, can turn somebody off, or prevent it from ever becoming a passion in their lives that overrides other issues and makes them a reliable vote for RKBA, regardless of other issues in play.

And just think about it from Clyde's perspective for a minute.. what is Simca hadn't been banned.. and Simca picked up on Clyde's comment and piggybacked and expanded on Clyde's ambiguous comment. Gawd, if I was Clyde I would have been so embarrassed. So lets just be thankful nobody got embarrassed that bad.
 
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