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I'm lucky enough to have exposure to many sides of shooting. I work with many different people with their different skills levels and experiences. It's great because you are always picking something new or improving your own skills set. At least you try. But long story short, in most cases, from what i have seen, most rifles will simply out shoot person behind it. If you will feed rifle will quality ammo it likes, then it will perform very well.

Shooting this PU sniper has been outstanding experience for me. I'm learning the way how to handle her and how to work with her. She has her buttons and this isn't my XM2010 where i can tweak every chassis detail to my body. You have to take what she gives you...ha!

Punching paper for groups from 100yds or 100m and to be consistently on the top of your performance is an art. I respect that. This isn't skill set which is most important to me, but I do honestly respect that.
For me, most important value comes from shooting at the extended ranges, making good calls for wind, estimating range correctly and etc. Scoring first round hits consistently on targets with PU past 500 yards gives me tons of satisfaction. Some may think it's retarded and i'm wasting my time, but that's ok...I just love to see what i can squeeze out from those old rifles...or maybe what they can squeeze out of me...ha!
But this also brings important factor, I can't just hang rifle on the wall in nice display case...I have to be able to shoot it...trigger puller before collector...;-)
And I'm really happy to see many of you guys here thinking the same way, not just collectors, but actually trigger pullers!
Thanks for posting Rob and look forward to more posts here. Where did you get your XM2010? I would love to get one after I sale the house or something. Sgt. Major Ron, NCOIC at SF sniper range Ft. Bragg, had me as guest at the international sniper match about 5 years ago. I was told none were gonna be available to the public anymore but some had escaped as award rifles and to selected people. I have had one in hand but never shot one. Impressive weapon but the weight seemed pretty hefty. Also tried to buy a Remington Modular rifle, which Sp. Ops. cut a bank draft for the first regular purchase and I saw the draft. First guy said maybe and expect $25K. He offered to let me shoot it the next day. Then the guy with the draft came back and said No, none to the public. Barret said they would have one soon and I could buy one. Apparently there is now one in inventory.

I have long said that modern snipers are marginally more accurate than some of the WW2 snipers but have added a lot of weight. I would feel comfortable with a PU or PEM if I ever was in some sniper type role, although probably too old unless we have and invasion or something unexpected, primarily due to the weight. Also like the SVD/NDM for its weight vs most of the stuff today. I only have an M24R as such semi-recent to compare it to. First outing with green barrel and iffy range conditions, it was shooting about like many of my PUs and not as good as my NDM in 308.
 

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Discussion Starter #42
Thanks for posting Rob and look forward to more posts here. Where did you get your XM2010? I would love to get one after I sale the house or something. Sgt. Major Ron, NCOIC at SF sniper range Ft. Bragg, had me as guest at the international sniper match about 5 years ago. I was told none were gonna be available to the public anymore but some had escaped as award rifles and to selected people. I have had one in hand but never shot one. Impressive weapon but the weight seemed pretty hefty. Also tried to buy a Remington Modular rifle, which Sp. Ops. cut a bank draft for the first regular purchase and I saw the draft. First guy said maybe and expect $25K. He offered to let me shoot it the next day. Then the guy with the draft came back and said No, none to the public. Barret said they would have one soon and I could buy one. Apparently there is now one in inventory.
That's my issue rifle, but if you would like to buy one, Europtics has them frequently. However, price is out of my range...lol!

xm2010.jpg

@M24 - i actually own that one at home. They are great shooters, you just have to be in agreement with them. M24 stock wasn't the best one and people often struggle to get comfortable behind it.

M24-800.jpg

M24-100yds.jpg

M24-400yds.jpg

That's with regular 168gr Gold Medal. You could get better with your own loads.

I have long said that modern snipers are marginally more accurate than some of the WW2 snipers but have added a lot of weight. I would feel comfortable with a PU or PEM if I ever was in some sniper type role, although probably too old unless we have and invasion or something unexpected, primarily due to the weight. Also like the SVD/NDM for its weight vs most of the stuff today. I only have an M24R as such semi-recent to compare it to. First outing with green barrel and iffy range conditions, it was shooting about like many of my PUs and not as good as my NDM in 308.
We carry on average over 120lbs of gear - glass, night vision, thermals, radios, cameras, batteries, food and water, plus the weapons and ammo...there are days when I hate my life but I wouldn't trade this job for anything else...
 

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New in box Steyr SSG P 2 308 is what I own.. DD6BF487-3B52-4BF9-BCC1-F806E64D74CD.png C91FAC96-CC82-4515-921F-0C1425C52C9C.png my temporary set up..<>< dan
how do these rifles rate
 

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Photos on this thread indicate some decent shooting and rifles with great accuracy potential if load is correct and shooter has his head in the game. Lets not overly praise 400 and 600 shots ...they are very easy to make on a range and if the target is a human...its a big target. What snipers confront is unknown distances, less than human size target exposures , beastly conditions (weather, fatigue,stress) and human dynamics..your shooting skill sets. Sub MOA accuracy is not necessary for 100 to 600 yd targets by a sniper rifle ...its great if its there but MOA will do nicely for the tasks at hand. Lets keep that in perspective and also , if the history as we know it from Stalingrad is true, snipers were shooting shorter distances that most of us often think a sniper would shoot...we are distracted by longer range shots where Stalingrad did not often have that. That said...be it close Stalingrad distances or out on the steppes for a 600 to 800 yd shot, that 762x54R round was a terrific man killer. It shot through men and through things to kill men. That round does perform !
 

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Photos on this thread indicate some decent shooting and rifles with great accuracy potential if load is correct and shooter has his head in the game. Lets not overly praise 400 and 600 shots ...they are very easy to make on a range and if the target is a human...its a big target. What snipers confront is unknown distances, less than human size target exposures , beastly conditions (weather, fatigue,stress) and human dynamics..your shooting skill sets. Sub MOA accuracy is not necessary for 100 to 600 yd targets by a sniper rifle ...its great if its there but MOA will do nicely for the tasks at hand. Lets keep that in perspective and also , if the history as we know it from Stalingrad is true, snipers were shooting shorter distances that most of us often think a sniper would shoot...we are distracted by longer range shots where Stalingrad did not often have that. That said...be it close Stalingrad distances or out on the steppes for a 600 to 800 yd shot, that 762x54R round was a terrific man killer. It shot through men and through things to kill men. That round does perform !
Agreed in 100%. 7.62x54r is in service from something like 1890s - this speaks volume about that round. For money paid, 7.62x54r delivers solid bang.
 

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I’m looking forward to it as I get my health straighten out..
I’ll tell one that I bought for 300 yards minute of animal...
two hundred yards (dime groups) ..straight 25 X 42 power (taken off)
..tekka bull barrel varmint..federal garment 50 grain. 223.
the surprised Tula silver nasty bear... quarter groups.same distance same day
.won’t group in my AR..on a pie plate..
used them as fouling rounds..surprise!
 

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It's funny I've wondered about the effects of temperature heating up the action and barrel on a mosin. While I have no scientific evidence, I've made a ritual when shooting for paper groups to give a moment of 30-45 seconds between shots with the bolt open until ready to load the next cartridge.
Also if the bolt doesn't close smoothly on a round, I'll eject it and reapply.

Being from California, the struggle in summer to find a spot of shade to let mosin actually cool down is become a bigger struggle then hitting the target now.
This explains why I get much tighter groups when I shoot my PU in the colder months of the year.V ery intersting. I'll have to really slow my shots down now. thanks for the information!
 

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This explains why I get much tighter groups when I shoot my PU in the colder months of the year.V ery intersting. I'll have to really slow my shots down now. thanks for the information!
I have two PU snipers. One as issued and one which was a ex PU that I re snipered. THe re sniper barrel does not touch wood but for last inch of fore end. After 40 rds in the sniper match, I'll see shots begin to move as heat build up under hand guards and barrel pressure on wood increases. Take off hand guard and all that goes away. I have seen modern M700 Remington's on 1000 yd line that owners complain in summer walk rounds after longish strings of fire. Barrels do respond to heat. My original PU sniper , untouched by me, has a free floating barrel more so than the re sniper PU, but after 40 rds in a match, it will move impact of shots to the left and that comes apparent ..very apparent at 800 yd line and at 1000 yd line. Any variance at those distances brings big differences on target. In our vintage sniper match we shoot 20 rds at 10 second exposures at 300 yds and 600 yds, then slow fire 20 rds at 600, then slow fire 20 rds at 800 and 1000 yds. On hot days, that barrel gets hot.

Yes I re snipered a Ex PU. All that I really did was re mount a WWII scope and mount but that is heresy. Of course if you bought like many here (this is a jab) a "Samco Scopeless Sniper" and stuffed the same WWII scope / mount on it, all would wonderful, righteous and acceptable. Perhaps I'll start referring to my Ex Pu as a Soviet Scopeless Sniper and all the stink will go away.
 

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I have two PU snipers. One as issued and one which was a ex PU that I re snipered. THe re sniper barrel does not touch wood but for last inch of fore end. After 40 rds in the sniper match, I'll see shots begin to move as heat build up under hand guards and barrel pressure on wood increases. Take off hand guard and all that goes away. I have seen modern M700 Remington's on 1000 yd line that owners complain in summer walk rounds after longish strings of fire. Barrels do respond to heat. My original PU sniper , untouched by me, has a free floating barrel more so than the re sniper PU, but after 40 rds in a match, it will move impact of shots to the left and that comes apparent ..very apparent at 800 yd line and at 1000 yd line. Any variance at those distances brings big differences on target. In our vintage sniper match we shoot 20 rds at 10 second exposures at 300 yds and 600 yds, then slow fire 20 rds at 600, then slow fire 20 rds at 800 and 1000 yds. On hot days, that barrel gets hot.
Has the original PU got a canvas wrap around the barrel?, my '44 Izhevsk PU has a wrap of canvas around the barrel that is around 2.5" long in the area of the front barrel band that appears to be original, as do the shims.

I haven't got mine hot enough to notice a change in POI due to heat but I can say my SVD hates a hot barrel, cold or warm to the touch not a problem but get it hot and groups
open up quite a bit.
 

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Barrel heat induced stringing will affect many guns. With bolt guns, if you don't have to make immediate follow up shots, you could mitigate barrel heat issue little bit by keeping bolt open after each shot, don't quickly load next round, just allow that airflow through the barrel and the chamber. Depends on the wind, but sometimes you will even feel that heat coming out...Ha! But if you are on tight clock, then that's not an option.

Has the original PU got a canvas wrap around the barrel?, my '44 Izhevsk PU has a wrap of canvas around the barrel that is around 2.5" long in the area of the front barrel band that appears to be original, as do the shims.

I haven't got mine hot enough to notice a change in POI due to heat but I can say my SVD hates a hot barrel, cold or warm to the touch not a problem but get it hot and groups
open up quite a bit.
I will have to try that out.
 

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I have two PU snipers. One as issued and one which was a ex PU that I re snipered. THe re sniper barrel does not touch wood but for last inch of fore end. After 40 rds in the sniper match, I'll see shots begin to move as heat build up under hand guards and barrel pressure on wood increases. Take off hand guard and all that goes away. I have seen modern M700 Remington's on 1000 yd line that owners complain in summer walk rounds after longish strings of fire. Barrels do respond to heat. My original PU sniper , untouched by me, has a free floating barrel more so than the re sniper PU, but after 40 rds in a match, it will move impact of shots to the left and that comes apparent ..very apparent at 800 yd line and at 1000 yd line. Any variance at those distances brings big differences on target. In our vintage sniper match we shoot 20 rds at 10 second exposures at 300 yds and 600 yds, then slow fire 20 rds at 600, then slow fire 20 rds at 800 and 1000 yds. On hot days, that barrel gets hot.

Yes I re snipered a Ex PU. All that I really did was re mount a WWII scope and mount but that is heresy. Of course if you bought like many here (this is a jab) a "Samco Scopeless Sniper" and stuffed the same WWII scope / mount on it, all would wonderful, righteous and acceptable. Perhaps I'll start referring to my Ex Pu as a Soviet Scopeless Sniper and all the stink will go away.

Good information on pushing the mosin to its limits, I've never fired more then 10 rounds out of my mosin at a time before letting cool down, mostly to lengthen barrel life as much as possible.

My thought on the mosin also is that wood reacts to heat and will shift and move POI with increasing levels of heat. And the fact that the Russian mosin has some of the thinnest wood handguards and barrel channels makes that reaction even quicker. One thing I've really learned to appreciate about the M39 mosin, why I think the thickness of the wood stock and barrel.

I wouldn't worry too much about ex pu resnipering project. Everyone loves to see an original PE/M find a proper restoration, or K98k sniper restoration, the rarity of the configuration doesn't change the fact that it's the same course of action. My 2 cents.
 

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Has the original PU got a canvas wrap around the barrel?, my '44 Izhevsk PU has a wrap of canvas around the barrel that is around 2.5" long in the area of the front barrel band that appears to be original, as do the shims.

I haven't got mine hot enough to notice a change in POI due to heat but I can say my SVD hates a hot barrel, cold or warm to the touch not a problem but get it hot and groups
open up quite a bit.

I'd like to see a pic of that wrap if you can.... I do wrap mine there but if original it would be interesting...
 

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I'd like to see a pic of that wrap if you can.... I do wrap mine there but if original it would be interesting...
When I get 5 I'll take the hand guard off an snap a pic :thumbsup:

I think it is original as the gentleman that owned it before me never shot it despite owning it for around 30 years and it was still covered in Cosmoline when I acquired it.Prior to me taking the action out of the stock to clean it and check it over (only once and I was very careful to put the barrel wrap and shims etc exactly as they were!) I don't think any of the screws had seen a screwdriver since they were tightened at the arsenal when it was refurbed.I'd be reluctant to take the action out of the stock again unless absolutely necessary as it shoots superbly and I don't want to disturb it again.

There is the canvas wrap around the barrel, two shims under the magazine/triggerguard, one under the rear tang, one against the rear face of the recoil lug recess and under the area of the barrel shank there is a thin piece of grey rag that has compressed over time.With the action in the stock and the action screws snugged I can slide a sheet of paper along the barrel channel, then around the side of the receiver between the stock and the metal work, round the rear tang and back down the other side without the paper snagging.Whoever set this rifle up, presumably at the arsenal as the course elevation screws on the mount are still staked etc, certainly went to a lot of trouble.The stock and the handguard also have the rifles serial number written in pencil on them so it would appear that an effort was made to keep the stock/handguard matched to the barrelled action and the stock appears to be the rifles original.
 

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Don't take it apart...once mine are settled in I don't either...but easy to remove the top handguard.... I'd like to see an original wrap tho so if/when post a pic.
 

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Barrel heat induced stringing will affect many guns. With bolt guns, if you don't have to make immediate follow up shots, you could mitigate barrel heat issue little bit by keeping bolt open after each shot, don't quickly load next round, just allow that airflow through the barrel and the chamber. Depends on the wind, but sometimes you will even feel that heat coming out...Ha! But if you are on tight clock, then that's not an option.



I will have to try that out.
i



I have used the leave the bolt open thing for about 30 years. I also suspect that leaving a round in the chamber to heat up will influence the ignition and cause a touch of change in the POI.?

I try to allow one minute to a minute and a half between shots. I time it the same for all shots in a group in an attempt to maintain consistency.

I will look for that outfit that sales M2010s and ask you for a link if I can not find it. Thanks
 

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Wraps and heat

On the subject of wraps. My PU sniper rifle, one of the first Molot import sold by AIM a few years ago does not have a barrel wrap. I would never consider a wrap as the rifle is deadly accurate and needs no tweeking but I do acknowledge the Soviets used wraps and many here have used them with success.

My re sniper has no wrap and is accurate. I'd consider a wrap if I thought the rifle needed it but 1 inch groups at 300 yds kinda tells me the rifle is doing just fine. If I saw or felt accuracy was fading, I'd definitely do a wrap approach.

Properly bedded PU sniper or 91/30 rifles don't need a wrap but often the original stock is not what is on a surplus rifle so the wrap would be a great accuracy approach IMO.

As to barrel heat: I mentioned as heat built up, my shots moved and that I took hand guard off and things got back to normal. The barrel relief is such there is nothing one can do to the barrel channel and the heat with HG on, is causing the barrel to slightly move and bear pressure at the end of the fore end. I don't see a wrap solving anything in this regard.

Its a fact heat effects accuracy, the degree is always a variable. Now I could relieve the wood at the end of fore end but the slight pressure there enhances accuracy and lack of it might mess accuracy up.

Since this heat situation is a match unique situation..firing 20 rd strings , one after another and that is hardly what a sniper with his rifle does ...I have resolved my Re Sniper be left alone. Its accuracy at 600 yds is just fine, its at 800 and 1000 that heat effects accuracy and that distance shooting with long strings of fire is a range unique issue...I only do twice a year, otherwise like most here, I shoot perhaps 10 rds and let barrel cool. With normal use , heat does not impact on the rifles accuracy.

If a sniper rifles mission is select precision shots, then my Re sniper PU exceeds expectations in long range accuracy.

Sometimes its necessary to remind shooters the PU sniper is a WWII era technology weapon and if you expect it to replicate the accuracy of a M40A1 or M40A6 ..glass bedded sniper rifle, its not a fair comparison. If one accepts the PU sniper rifle for what it does in a WWII context, then one will be very much satisfied with its performance.
 

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It think the barrel wrap gives a known pressure point in a specific area to dampen barrel harmonics.From what I gather some Mosins like a fully floated barrel whereas others don't.I had a standard infantry '39 Izhevsk 91/30 that wouldn't hold a half decent group so I shimmed it and added a wrap and the accuracy vastly improved and was consistent.....but......it took a bit of trial and error with the positioning on the wrap to find the "sweet spot", an inch or two either way made a noticeable difference.I think the wrap acts like a low tech version of the barrel tuning dampers that precision target shooters use.
 
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