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Discussion Starter #21
When I was looking to buy the SVD someone gave me a piece of advice I followed and it really paid off.....that piece of advice was to shoot nothing else but the SVD for 12 months and get to know it inside out and this, in conjunction with quality handloads, is the result......

5-shot group shot from a rest at 100m, .311" 150gr PPU SPBT/PPU brass/Vihtavuori N140 powder
View attachment 3704283

5-shots from '44 Izhevsk PU , 100m from a rest with the same bullet etc as above but using Ramshot Big Game powder .Steel case is for size reference.
View attachment 3704317

I also work with a gentleman that served in the VDV in Afghanistan from '87 to '89 and he has given me a lot of advice as well, I actually took him to my range on a guest day and his eyes lit up like a kid on Christmas morning when he saw the SVD and I can tell you he can still shoot! :thumbsup:
Now you are just rubbing it into my eyes! lol! Outstanding shooting.
I really have to get my reloading dies for 7.62x54r. I got tons of saved brass already, so time to get serious! ha!
 

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I've had pretty good luck with run of the mill Winchester 182grn Ammo at 100 meters. Also had pretty surprising results with Tulammo (black dot 1 inch target pic)

My mosin 1943 PU was a broken bird when I acquired it, completely warped stock and the scope was filled with the grimiest cosmoline and grease I've ever seen, it looked like a construction yard outhouse inside! Wasn't even able to see through it when viewing through the scope at all.

I had to learn to completely tear down and reservice a PU scope, but now it looks brand new through it, added one of raupleminze's accurizing kit, and now I can confidently outshoot most people at the range with modern rifles out to 500 yards with the ol' gal.

Something very fulfilling when you personally can bring back a project rifle and ends up better then expected.
 

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Nice work on your PU.... I've used the tutorials here to adjust the clarity/focus on my PU scopes...great info on this site. I always take a back up shooter when I use one of my snipers.... shoot a bit and let her cool down.
It would be interesting to use an infra red thermometer on it and come up with the best accuracy temp.....I doubt it was as much an issue in Stalingrad/Leningrad but these Az summers are hot and we all know they heat up quickly and can lose accuracy along with...I will have to do that.
 

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It's funny I've wondered about the effects of temperature heating up the action and barrel on a mosin. While I have no scientific evidence, I've made a ritual when shooting for paper groups to give a moment of 30-45 seconds between shots with the bolt open until ready to load the next cartridge.
Also if the bolt doesn't close smoothly on a round, I'll eject it and reapply.

Being from California, the struggle in summer to find a spot of shade to let mosin actually cool down is become a bigger struggle then hitting the target now.
 

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Well, I like the details (why I re load) so this could be another venue for MN OCD.... The range we have has overhead cover and we usually go out noonish so the sun is overhead.... it is hot mid day but experience tells me the direct sunlight is worse than ambient heat...ambient is non directional and heats evenly.
I'll take my IR out next session and record best groups and the heat cycle...what the heck...another excuse to go shooting with a purpose.
 

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Now you are just rubbing it into my eyes! lol! Outstanding shooting.
I really have to get my reloading dies for 7.62x54r. I got tons of saved brass already, so time to get serious! ha!
Thank you :thumbsup:

It took quite a bit of range time and tweaking to get to that point but it is definitely worth the effort.

I originally worked up the loads I use, with three different powders so as not to be reliant on the availability of just one, for the SVD as milsurp was getting scarce at the time and I wanted to see what accuracy I could get out of it, move away from corrosive ammo and ensure I could maintain a supply of quality ammo.It was more coincidental that the loads I worked up also work very well in the PU.

As the loads were originally intended for the SVD I took the effort to develope a load that matched Russian milsurp in terms of POA/POI so that the BDC elevation drum settings on my original PSO-1 scope were still relevant, which I can confirm they are at least out to 900m on a man-sized target.

I still shoot milsurp through both rifles when plinking etc but it is satisfing to bring out the handloads, especially when shooting alongside someone that has a mega-bucks modern rifle and scope combo on the bench next to you and has looked down their nose at "crap old commie tat"!!!
 

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Discussion Starter #27
Thank you :thumbsup:

It took quite a bit of range time and tweaking to get to that point but it is definitely worth the effort.

I originally worked up the loads I use, with three different powders so as not to be reliant on the availability of just one, for the SVD as milsurp was getting scarce at the time and I wanted to see what accuracy I could get out of it, move away from corrosive ammo and ensure I could maintain a supply of quality ammo.It was more coincidental that the loads I worked up also work very well in the PU.

As the loads were originally intended for the SVD I took the effort to develope a load that matched Russian milsurp in terms of POA/POI so that the BDC elevation drum settings on my original PSO-1 scope were still relevant, which I can confirm they are at least out to 900m on a man-sized target.

I still shoot milsurp through both rifles when plinking etc but it is satisfing to bring out the handloads, especially when shooting alongside someone that has a mega-bucks modern rifle and scope combo on the bench next to you and has looked down their nose at "crap old commie tat"!!!
This is honestly what i like about those guns, if you are willing to put some heart and work into them, you will be rewarded big time. If you are a type of a guy who opens box with a gun and wants to have everything "clicking" at the snap of the fingers and keep "drilling" holes at the target from 100yds at the top of each other without any effort, then those aren't guns you should buy...
Now I do have some outstanding rifles which shoot the lights out without any effort too. And they are awesome in different way. But i always keep coming back to those commie bastard guns, even when they throw you around from recoil, cheek slap you like a little bitch or misplace your jaw from trying to get that magic cheek weld.:laugh:
 

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Discussion Starter #28
I've had pretty good luck with run of the mill Winchester 182grn Ammo at 100 meters. Also had pretty surprising results with Tulammo (black dot 1 inch target pic)

My mosin 1943 PU was a broken bird when I acquired it, completely warped stock and the scope was filled with the grimiest cosmoline and grease I've ever seen, it looked like a construction yard outhouse inside! Wasn't even able to see through it when viewing through the scope at all.

I had to learn to completely tear down and reservice a PU scope, but now it looks brand new through it, added one of raupleminze's accurizing kit, and now I can confidently outshoot most people at the range with modern rifles out to 500 yards with the ol' gal.

Something very fulfilling when you personally can bring back a project rifle and ends up better then expected.
That is work of art! Outstanding job!
 

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This is honestly what i like about those guns, if you are willing to put some heart and work into them, you will be rewarded big time. If you are a type of a guy who opens box with a gun and wants to have everything "clicking" at the snap of the fingers and keep "drilling" holes at the target from 100yds at the top of each other without any effort, then those aren't guns you should buy...
Now I do have some outstanding rifles which shoot the lights out without any effort too. And they are awesome in different way. But i always keep coming back to those commie bastard guns, even when they throw you around from recoil, cheek slap you like a little bitch or misplace your jaw from trying to get that magic cheek weld.:laugh:
This is a genuine true story........I was shooting at my club range last year and there was just myself and one other chap on the range.It turned out he was serving in the Royal Irish Regiment, who are based fairly locally, and we got chatting and he said he was soon deploying to Afghanistan.

When he saw the SVD he said he'd had the opportunity to shoot one in Mali when he was there as part of the UN Peacekeeping force and proceeded to tell me that he was surprised how inaccurate the SVD is.......at which point I offered him the opportunity to put a mags worth of rounds through it.After firing the last round and looking through the spotting scope at the target the first thing he said was WOW!!!.

He had put all ten shots in a 3" circle and said he never imagined they could be so accurate and that the ones in Mali must have been shot out!.

I then handed him the PU and some handloads and that properly blew his mind!

He went on to say he'd have more respect for these rifles once he got out to Afghan and that everyone going out there on deployment should see what they are capable of.
 

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Discussion Starter #30
Pavlichenko's book 'Lady Death' is total bullshit served up hot....she was invented for her trip to the USA....
Found it. This is the fragment i was refereeing to which she smacks SVT:

"The rifle would begin to 'snap' (for instance, it would not reload or it would barely expel the used cartridges) if the pressure of the powder gasses changed. It also depended, incidentally, on weather, on air temperature. In that case the marksman had to regulate the aperture in the gas port manually, to make it bigger or smaller. Apart from that, the "sveta" also misbehaved when covered with thick grease or if dust got into its mechanism, Among the deficiencies of the SVT40 I would aslo mention its bright muzzle flash upon firing and its loud sound, which immediately gave away one's location".

Fragments like this make me believe that at least partially she had some real experiences...
 

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Found it. This is the fragment i was refereeing to which she smacks SVT:

"The rifle would begin to 'snap' (for instance, it would not reload or it would barely expel the used cartridges) if the pressure of the powder gasses changed. It also depended, incidentally, on weather, on air temperature. In that case the marksman had to regulate the aperture in the gas port manually, to make it bigger or smaller. Apart from that, the "sveta" also misbehaved when covered with thick grease or if dust got into its mechanism, Among the deficiencies of the SVT40 I would aslo mention its bright muzzle flash upon firing and its loud sound, which immediately gave away one's location".

Fragments like this make me believe that at least partially she had some real experiences...
Fragments like that were well known thru out the service and anyone could have written it.....this was early on and SVT rejection rate at the factories was extremely high and that also translated into 'marginal' production that went to a very needy front.

I don't but into her story for numerous reasons....primarily... in the early days of the war Soviet propaganda always highlighted individual 'hero's' as the overall picture was nothing to brag about...retreats and massive losses of men and material.
When she was supposedly a sniper early on before the evacuation of Odessa she was never mentioned in dispatches or the propaganda media...not once even tho she supposedly had 187 kills at that time...nor was she awarded any medals...there was a female MG gunner in the unit Pavlichenko was supposedly assigned too that was awarded medals and made the papers often...why did they ignore Ludmilla? Because she was not there and they invented it.
Soviet propaganda was always at the front and individual stories were common...she was never mentioned at that time at all....

Post perestroika Russian historians go into depth on her book time line and take it apart.... it was fabricated.

When she eventually went to sniper reunions she was pretty much left alone...they knew but would obviously say nothing.

When I read the book I wanted to believe it...great story...but her combat descriptions and acts were stupid in many cases and raised doubt....killing a sniper alone then going out into the open to retrieve articles from him....yeah...smart... made up. Then I started looking into her book and found Russian sources that had come to the same conclusion.

As an aside if you look at all of her posed pictures she is always a bit chubby....well fed....not a front line trait at the time.
 

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Nice score and good shooting. Congratulations.

Good shooting by several folks. These old rifles and the SVD/NDMs can do some amazing performance. Quite a few of us, many years back here like Skip/Milpreb? sp, Caleb/O Relic, Joop, others etc, showed the nay-sayers who claimed no old Russian rifle could shoot sub-MOA that they were wrong after several of us showed multiple sub-MOA groups.

I agree it is great fun to outshoot someone at the range shooting a modern custom sniper rifle. I had that experience at a public range while the local SWAT team sniper was there with his handloads and Rem. 700 Police sniper. He was not happy and having trouble figuring out how that happened.

The bxn 86 copper wash is some of the best surplus I have fired.

I still love my Extra Match but one rifle likes Target grade better, just one.

The number of members shooting these is at a all time high now. It is nice to see so many reporting on good rifles.
 

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Nice score and good shooting. Congratulations.

Good shooting by several folks. These old rifles and the SVD/NDMs can do some amazing performance. Quite a few of us, many years back here like Skip/Milpreb? sp, Caleb/O Relic, others etc, showed the nay-sayers who claimed no old Russian rifle could shoot sub-MOA that they were wrong after several of us showed multiple sub-MOA groups.

I agree it is great fun to outshoot someone at the range shooting a modern custom sniper rifle. I had that experience at a public range while the local SWAT team sniper was there with his handloads and Rem. 700 Police sniper. He was not happy and having trouble figuring out how that happened.

The bxn 86 copper wash is some of the best surplus I have fired.

I still love my Extra Match but one rifle likes Target grade better, just one.

The number of members shooting these is at a all time high now. It is nice to see so many reporting on good rifles.

I''ll preface this by saying that I make no claim to be a marksman. When I take a PU to the range, it's more about testing the limits of the milsurp itself, not my shooting ability, so the bragging rights, if any, belong to the sandbag and the bench or the ground from which I shoot prone.

But people can make all the disparaging remarks they want about "internet marksman claims" and "overrated Mosin 'snipers'". They can believe whatever they choose to believe, but the fact is that it's pretty common to find a PU that will shoot consistent groups hovering just under or just over 1moa out to at least 300 meters (maybe more, but that's about the limit to how far I'm able to shoot at the places I have available). And of course, that's with quality ammo, i.e. good handloads, Soviet Extra or match, and some higher quality modern commercial.

I have a '43 Tula that I bought back in 2012 during the early part of the influx of bulk imports of PUs. I used to think it had a near-mint bore, but would now say it's a "good but not great" bore: I've learned a lot in the years since then about how to evaluate a rifle bore and what constitutes a "like new" bore (yes, I'll admit to being a bit OCD in some ways). I've shot several hundred rounds through it, and I have cellphone photos of virtually every group that it's produced over the years, with "On Target" software rendered group analysis on the pics (did I mention that I'm a bit OCD in some ways)? ;)

At any rate, though I now have PUs which outshoot this Tula, it is very consistent, and it's the rifle with which I have the most experience and the most data collected, and if you examine the records I've kept of its performance, the aggregate group size of all the shots I've fired with it at ranges between 100 and 300 meters is probably very close to 1moa. And if you ask me, that's pretty stellar performance for a rifle mass-produced during a time of national duress almost 80 years ago.
 

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Whilst my PU and SVD are both capable of sub-MOA groups I don't/can't shoot sub-MOA groups all the time.I find I shoot better if there is no one else on the range and I can just "get in the zone" without worrying about what anyone else is doing or being able to hear other folks chirping to each other .Some days I'm like the World 100m Flinching Champion, especially if I've got stuff on my mind, which is annoying and there are other days I only seem to be able to pull off 4 great shots that all touch with the bloody 5th one going about 3" off!!! :mad........all part of the fun, or so they say!.More often it is far more rewarding and fun just putting a load of clays and tin cans in the backstop and just plinking at those, then the pieces, than it is chasing small groups on a piece of paper.

When it comes to milsurp ammo the most accurate I've shot in the SVD was 1988-dated Hungarian silver-tipped light ball, the stuff in the grey polymer coated cases.It shot nearly as well as my handloads but unfortunately it is really hard to come by over here, I've only got 20 rounds of it left that I'm saving for a rainy day.
 

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Discussion Starter #35
I'm lucky enough to have exposure to many sides of shooting. I work with many different people with their different skills levels and experiences. It's great because you are always picking something new or improving your own skills set. At least you try. But long story short, in most cases, from what i have seen, most rifles will simply out shoot person behind it. If you will feed rifle will quality ammo it likes, then it will perform very well.

Shooting this PU sniper has been outstanding experience for me. I'm learning the way how to handle her and how to work with her. She has her buttons and this isn't my XM2010 where i can tweak every chassis detail to my body. You have to take what she gives you...ha!

Punching paper for groups from 100yds or 100m and to be consistently on the top of your performance is an art. I respect that. This isn't skill set which is most important to me, but I do honestly respect that.
For me, most important value comes from shooting at the extended ranges, making good calls for wind, estimating range correctly and etc. Scoring first round hits consistently on targets with PU past 500 yards gives me tons of satisfaction. Some may think it's retarded and i'm wasting my time, but that's ok...I just love to see what i can squeeze out from those old rifles...or maybe what they can squeeze out of me...ha!
But this also brings important factor, I can't just hang rifle on the wall in nice display case...I have to be able to shoot it...trigger puller before collector...;-)
And I'm really happy to see many of you guys here thinking the same way, not just collectors, but actually trigger pullers!
 

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I'm lucky enough to have exposure to many sides of shooting. I work with many different people with their different skills levels and experiences. It's great because you are always picking something new or improving your own skills set. At least you try. But long story short, in most cases, from what i have seen, most rifles will simply out shoot person behind it. If you will feed rifle will quality ammo it likes, then it will perform very well.

Shooting this PU sniper has been outstanding experience for me. I'm learning the way how to handle her and how to work with her. She has her buttons and this isn't my XM2010 where i can tweak every chassis detail to my body. You have to take what she gives you...ha!

Punching paper for groups from 100yds or 100m and to be consistently on the top of your performance is an art. I respect that. This isn't skill set which is most important to me, but I do honestly respect that.
For me, most important value comes from shooting at the extended ranges, making good calls for wind, estimating range correctly and etc. Scoring first round hits consistently on targets with PU past 500 yards gives me tons of satisfaction. Some may think it's retarded and i'm wasting my time, but that's ok...I just love to see what i can squeeze out from those old rifles...or maybe what they can squeeze out of me...ha!
But this also brings important factor, I can't just hang rifle on the wall in nice display case...I have to be able to shoot it...trigger puller before collector...;-)
And I'm really happy to see many of you guys here thinking the same way, not just collectors, but actually trigger pullers!

I've been both collector and shooter, but I work so much of late that it's just really hard for me to get to the range.

My philosophy is that some PUs are strictly collectors. For instance, I'm lucky enough to own two factory matching (including original scope) 1944 Tulas. That's a pretty hard find and they aren't making any more, so those will never be range guns for me. High powered rifle bores have a very finite life, and regular range trips will take their toll relatively quickly on an irreplaceable rifle.

On the other hand, I recently picked up at a very attractive price a genuine fully refurbed PU with a great bore and in generally excellent operating condition, but with a stock that the previous owner had tried to "pretty up" by removing the finish. Now that is a rifle that you can take to the range guilt free and worry free.
 

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I'm lucky enough to have exposure to many sides of shooting. I work with many different people with their different skills levels and experiences. It's great because you are always picking something new or improving your own skills set. At least you try. But long story short, in most cases, from what i have seen, most rifles will simply out shoot person behind it. If you will feed rifle will quality ammo it likes, then it will perform very well.

Shooting this PU sniper has been outstanding experience for me. I'm learning the way how to handle her and how to work with her. She has her buttons and this isn't my XM2010 where i can tweak every chassis detail to my body. You have to take what she gives you...ha!

Punching paper for groups from 100yds or 100m and to be consistently on the top of your performance is an art. I respect that. This isn't skill set which is most important to me, but I do honestly respect that.
For me, most important value comes from shooting at the extended ranges, making good calls for wind, estimating range correctly and etc. Scoring first round hits consistently on targets with PU past 500 yards gives me tons of satisfaction. Some may think it's retarded and i'm wasting my time, but that's ok...I just love to see what i can squeeze out from those old rifles...or maybe what they can squeeze out of me...ha!
But this also brings important factor, I can't just hang rifle on the wall in nice display case...I have to be able to shoot it...trigger puller before collector...;-)
And I'm really happy to see many of you guys here thinking the same way, not just collectors, but actually trigger pullers!
I really enjoy your range videos! I dream of someday owning enough land where I can shoot at 300yd+ distances whenever I want. I can't even imagine being able to set up 360 degree shooting areas like you have! Looks like so much fun!! You are very lucky to have access to a place like that.

Most ranges around me are getting very strict and are forcing people to only shoot from a bench. At one range you can't even stand up and shoot anymore because they installed a armor plate overhang in front of the benches to prevent rounds from going over the berm at 100 yds. Careless shooters ruined it for everyone and almost got the place shutdown. Apparently people were actually sitting 'targets' on top of the dirt berms! Bullets were raining down on someones property at their residence. Scary.
 

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There are lots of shooters here and I've gotten some good tips on loads.
Each one of my snipers likes a different load in charge and COAL. The bullet weight seems to be consistent at 174 gns. but the length will vary depending upon the condition of the throat..or throat wear on an 80 year old rifle. My PE/PEM use .312 diameter rounds....older rifles and used more...and my PU, an arsenal sniper, has good tolerances and .311 works just right. Each one has been shimmed and barrel wrapped after working the stock barrel channel a bit so it is supported forward of the receiver and at the wrap.
I've found they all like a little hotter round rather than light for best accuracy.
Others love the light ball or 150 gn rounds.... I suspect with enough attention you can get great results with tweaking it for your favorite style of loads.
The most enjoyable part for me is the shooting work....and the different 'personality' each has.
 

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Second the enjoyment..
 

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I've been both collector and shooter, but I work so much of late that it's just really hard for me to get to the range.

My philosophy is that some PUs are strictly collectors. For instance, I'm lucky enough to own two factory matching (including original scope) 1944 Tulas. That's a pretty hard find and they aren't making any more, so those will never be range guns for me. High powered rifle bores have a very finite life, and regular range trips will take their toll relatively quickly on an irreplaceable rifle.

On the other hand, I recently picked up at a very attractive price a genuine fully refurbed PU with a great bore and in generally excellent operating condition, but with a stock that the previous owner had tried to "pretty up" by removing the finish. Now that is a rifle that you can take to the range guilt free and worry free.
Thanks for the posts my friend. Hope to see you at SOS/NGD next year, if this virus allows.

I agree that most PUs shoot around MOA plus/minus a bit. Occasionally one gets a group near half that, at least that is me. I also agree, and have long said, it is the rifle, ammo and bench rest that makes the good groups, not me the shooter. I am looking for what the rifle and ammo combo can do.

Also agree that some have to be set aside as no shoot collectables. There are plenty of examples of shooters we can use.
 
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