1927 Tula Dragoon Questions PICS ADDED!

1511 Views 22 Replies 7 Participants Last post by USMCsean, Apr 1, 2014

TalvisotaMosin

Discussion Starter · Mar 30, 2014 (Edited)

So at the local show today I found what I think is a great find. It's an original matching, less the bolt, 1927 Tula Dragoon. It has a very good bore and about a 95% original blue. Now here's where things get confusing. It's sitting in a heavily sanded Tula star marked stock with wire hangers. At first I thought it was SCW but I'm starting to doubt this. The metal hangers are painted black which I dont think the Spanish ever did. Could anyone post some pics to compare? And then after inspecting the stock more I found two repairs that look like they were done by the Soviets. And when further inspecting the stock I see this little strip of paper sticking out of the handguard. I took it out and it had E094-3109-6021-XXXX written on it. Im pretty sure ive seen this before, isnt it some type of ID number? I have yet to take it apart and I honestly have no idea how I can with the metal hangers being on the stock. Did the Spanish ever put the ink stamps under the buttplate? Thats the only place I can check without altering the rifle. I'm thinking its possible that this was a WW2 bringback given the repairs and complete lack of import markings. The other possibly which is more likely is Spain but I wont find out until I take it apart to check for the ink stamps. Thanks for any help you can offer and I'll hopefully be able to post pictures tomorrow. Lastly, any ideas as to value? And don't bother trying to buy this one, it's staying with me. Thanks again.

1 - 20 of 23 Posts

Stalin's Ghost

· #2 · Mar 30, 2014 (Edited)

Sounds Finned to me, but without pictures it is tough to say. Any early rifle brought in may have no US serial number or import stamp as these were only federally mandated post-1967 or so, if my memory serves. I own many Mosins with no import marks and they aren't all SCW.

The wire hangers and black painted escutcheons (with little round center holes in them to hold the wire hangers?) sound Finn, as does the sanded Russian stock, if it was sanded and finished by the Finns. If it was sanded by Bubba all bets are off. A Finn stock could be made a good deal better if Bubba-sanded by rubbing with Tom's Pine Tar to at least look a bit more Finn.

I have no idea what the paper means. Anyone have an idea?

Without pictures I can only guess at price, but a nice Finned Dragoon is worth $300+ or so even without a bolt assuming Bubba didn't strip the stock. Finns usually are mixmasters anyhow, so a non-matched bolt means little. If the stock is wrecked by a stateside sanding, price goes to perhaps $200-$250, I would guess, but I'm guessing in the dark on that one.

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Iron_Colonel

· #3 · Mar 30, 2014

Hard to tell with no pics. Looking forward.

Handsome Devil

· #4 · Mar 30, 2014

Yes, waiting for pics. Near impossible to draw any definate conclusion on the description alone. Sounds intriguing. Regards, John.

TalvisotaMosin

Discussion Starter · #5 · Mar 30, 2014

10

Having a hell of a time uploading pics. Every time I attempt to upload a pic of the whole rifle it fails. Sorry for the jumbled order but hopefully this can answer some of your questions. Also that bore pic is without a single patch through it. It's just full of dust. And I checked under the butt plate for the MI-8 stamps but couldn't find any. Still working on getting a pic of the whole rifle.

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USMCsean

· #6 · Mar 30, 2014

Maybe Balkan? I'm not sure. Wire hangers do not look like the SCW type to me.

Semper Fi,
Sean

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We Marines believe that God gave America the greatest gift he could bestow to man while he lived on this earth-freedom. We also believe he gave us another gift nearly as precious-our soldiers, sailors, airmen, Coast Guardsmen, and Marines-to safeguard that gift and
guarantee no force on this earth can every steal it away. It has been my distinct honor to have been with you here today. Rest assured our America, this experiment in democracy started over two centuries ago, will forever remain the "land of the free and home of the brave" so long as we never run out of tough young Americans who are willing to look beyond their own self-interest and comfortable lives, and go into the darkest and most dangerous places on earth to hunt down, and kill, those who would do us harm.
Nov 13, 2010 Lt General John Kelly, USMC

Iron_Colonel

· #7 · Mar 30, 2014

After seeing the pics, it looks like the floor plate and butt plate have been sanded and renumbered. But the fonts of the barrel shank and the floor plate and butt plate do look very similar as well. I wonder if it was a Soviet thing they did at the production of this rifle. Maybe they recycled an old part and restamped it at the production arsenal? If it were SCW, it seems to be "too matching" as with most SCW rifles, no stamped parts usually match. But that's not to say it's still not. Some came out of Spain, and still retained their original parts. The wire hanger looks like it's about the right diameter to be SCW. Do the ends of the wire come together outside the sling slot, or inside the sling slot? It is interesting it is painted black though. Can't tell as the sling is in the way in your pic. Also, does the rear sight have a notch filed out between the first and second graduations? That is a SCW trait, as well as Finn trait. But in this case, with no other Finn identifying marks, I'd have to lean towards SCW. Possible Balkan, but the Soviet crest and Tula arsenal star are still in tact and present. But that's not to say the Finns also didn't remove Imperial/Soviet marks either. Sometimes little machining dimples or a whole top receiver flat was machined to remove the Russian mark. But both SCW and Finn Mosins exhibit this feature much less than Balkan influenced Mosins. Are both barrel bands the solid type?

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TalvisotaMosin

Discussion Starter · #8 · Mar 30, 2014

Yes both the bands are the solid type. I still dont think that this is Balkan because of its condition. The bluing is all original and nearly immaculate except for some small pin head sized pitting. Also this rifle came from the original owner who has had it for 40+ years. Didnt the Balkans imports come in much more recently than that?

TalvisotaMosin

Discussion Starter · #9 · Mar 30, 2014

Is this the notch you were talking about?

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Denny

· #10 · Mar 30, 2014

Nice looking rifle TM. I have the same sling on an SCW, and have seen several other examples of the same. Vic has always stated these are Finnish slings, but some think they are Spanish. The slings could have been an easy addition state side since they work well with the wire hangers. The fore end stock repair and the stock finish look similar to my '27 Finned Dragoon. Could we get a pic of the bolt SN font? Denny

Iron_Colonel

· #11 · Mar 30, 2014

2

Usually it's a half notch between the first and second graduation. The highest part of the first graduation is usually filed down. A side view could better determine that. But it looks like we could rule out Balkan, as there is usually a piece of metal wedged in the rear sight area and is peened in place. This one does not have that, or remnants of that.

Here is what a SCW rear sight notched would look like. This from a 1916 PTG M91

And the Balkan wedge

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TalvisotaMosin

Discussion Starter · #12 · Mar 30, 2014

Whoops I thought I had uploaded a pic of the bolt. It's a somewhat early Izhevsk bolt that I think is the way it left the factory. It doesn't appear to have been scrubbed and it has all the correct Izhevsk proof marks.

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USMCsean

· #13 · Mar 30, 2014

I still say Balkan.

Semper Fi,
Sean

Check out the newest forum on Gunboards! The Brass Exchange. Where reloaders can come and find the brass that they need. https://forums.gunboards.com/forumdisplay.php?100-The-Brass-Exchange

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We Marines believe that God gave America the greatest gift he could bestow to man while he lived on this earth-freedom. We also believe he gave us another gift nearly as precious-our soldiers, sailors, airmen, Coast Guardsmen, and Marines-to safeguard that gift and
guarantee no force on this earth can every steal it away. It has been my distinct honor to have been with you here today. Rest assured our America, this experiment in democracy started over two centuries ago, will forever remain the "land of the free and home of the brave" so long as we never run out of tough young Americans who are willing to look beyond their own self-interest and comfortable lives, and go into the darkest and most dangerous places on earth to hunt down, and kill, those who would do us harm.
Nov 13, 2010 Lt General John Kelly, USMC

TalvisotaMosin

Discussion Starter · #14 · Mar 30, 2014

Do you have any good pictures of or links to Balkan dragoons? I'm not trying to defend my rifle or anything this just doesn't look like any Balkan rifle I've ever seen. Most of them are trashed and this one is in excellent shape save for the the stock

TalvisotaMosin

Discussion Starter · #15 · Mar 30, 2014

3

Finally got some of the whole rifle:

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Iron_Colonel

· #16 · Mar 31, 2014

6

Best I can do is show some pics of my own 1917 Izhevsk Balkan Dragoon. It still retains the earlier pattern handguard. But most likely, the handguard was made in the Balkans. There was some recent discussion on the earlier pattern handguards.

Barrel shank severely defaced.

The bolt on this one also looks to be non scrubbed. Interesting similarity to yours. But it's not all defaced.

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Eula520

· #17 · Mar 31, 2014

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?352698-1905-Izhevsk-Dragoon-Type-2-HandguardHere Here is a link to my 1905 Izhevsk Balkan Dragoon. It is very similar to IC's, with 2nd pattern handguard and scrubbed shank. Hope this helps:

TalvisotaMosin

Discussion Starter · #18 · Apr 1, 2014

Thanks for the replies but I still say it isn't Balkan. It's just in too nice of shape and never been reblued to have come from there. Does anyone know when the Balkan imports first came in?

USMCsean

· #19 · Apr 1, 2014

Instead of looking at what we think it may be, let's look at the characteristics that it does NOT have.

1. Spanish cleaning rod
2. MADE IN USSR / MADE IN URRS stamped on the rear sight base, barrel, or receiver.
3. Sanded to death stock
4. Spanish replacement handguard
5. MP8/flaming bomb stamp on the stock.

Other er features that have been pointed out by others, the rear sight does not have the step filed in. And I still believe the wife diameter is a little smaller than what I've observed over the years. Not every Balkan import has had the imperial/soviet crests peened or scrubbed.

Am I saying I am right that it's Balkan? Nope. I'm just telling you that after collecting for 14 years and my own personal experience. I just have the guy feel about it.

Semper Fi,
Sean

Check out the newest forum on Gunboards! The Brass Exchange. Where reloaders can come and find the brass that they need. https://forums.gunboards.com/forumdisplay.php?100-The-Brass-Exchange

Please add your info for the Tikka 91/30 Survey at: https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?p=3975#post3975

We Marines believe that God gave America the greatest gift he could bestow to man while he lived on this earth-freedom. We also believe he gave us another gift nearly as precious-our soldiers, sailors, airmen, Coast Guardsmen, and Marines-to safeguard that gift and
guarantee no force on this earth can every steal it away. It has been my distinct honor to have been with you here today. Rest assured our America, this experiment in democracy started over two centuries ago, will forever remain the "land of the free and home of the brave" so long as we never run out of tough young Americans who are willing to look beyond their own self-interest and comfortable lives, and go into the darkest and most dangerous places on earth to hunt down, and kill, those who would do us harm.
Nov 13, 2010 Lt General John Kelly, USMC

TalvisotaMosin

Discussion Starter · #20 · Apr 1, 2014

USMCsean said:
Instead of looking at what we think it may be, let's look at the characteristics that it does NOT have.

1. Spanish cleaning rod
2. MADE IN USSR / MADE IN URRS stamped on the rear sight base, barrel, or receiver.
3. Sanded to death stock
4. Spanish replacement handguard
5. MP8/flaming bomb stamp on the stock.

Other er features that have been pointed out by others, the rear sight does not have the step filed in. And I still believe the wife diameter is a little smaller than what I've observed over the years. Not every Balkan import has had the imperial/soviet crests peened or scrubbed.

Am I saying I am right that it's Balkan? Nope. I'm just telling you that after collecting for 14 years and my own personal experience. I just have the guy feel about it.

I agree that's the best way to go about figuring out where this thing came from and I respect you opinion you admittedly have more knowledge than I. Would pictures of the sling help at all? And the main reason why I believe it's not Balkan is that it's been in the country for over 35 years. Thanks for all the replies.

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