[Abulg1972]

I was waiting on a scope to be installed on my pig gun at my LGS and I stumbled upon an Argentine 1909 [Edit: Cavalry] Engineer's carbine that's in really good condition. The wood is beautiful (not sanded) and I'd say the bluing is 90%. It was listed at $470 but is on consignment so the price is negotiable. From what I could see, everything matches except the stock. The muzzle end of the barrel has a 3 digit number (725) that doesn't match the serial number but I know nothing about these rifles (other than that I want a Modelo 1909) and don't know whether that number should match the SN or is some kind of part number or inspector's stamp. Does anyone know if that number should match? Is that a decent price?

 

[Abulg1972]

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[Abulg1972]

I think the carbines had a blued receiver but the full lengths were in the white.

I've seen a bunch of auctions lately of similar carbines (no matching stock) and they have had prices significantly higher. I don't know if they actually sold, though.

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[Abulg1972]

What would be an ok price as is?

Also, does anyone know if that number on the muzzle should match the SN?

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[Abulg1972]

The other thing I noticed which I forgot to mention is that the bolt release seems very loose - it is not tight to the receiver like it should be. Does anyone know if this can be fixed by adjusting that screw?

 

[Abulg1972]

According to Webster's "Argentine Mausers", all of the German and Argentine manufactured 1909's had receivers in the white. The exception were some long rifles and engineer carbines converted in Argentina to snipers which had the receivers blued to reduce visibility. That said, there are many carbines, both cavalry and engineers in the US with blued receivers, presumably done at some point in Argentina. Some time ago I bought a DWM Cavalry carbine online with a bright receiver only to find when I disassembled it that it had been buffed back to white but retained the bluing below the wood line. An Engineers carbine is definitely on my wish list.

On the other questions, I've never seen an Argentine Mauser with a number on the barrel end. I suspect the loose ejector box is either a broken or worn out spring, which should be available somewhere.

Thanks you.

I found this, which supports your comments: Argy Carbines made at DWM has polished receivers. All of them..Rebuilt Carbines are sometimes blued, more often than not. Argentine Manufactured Carbines have polished receivers, at first, then blued later on, there are some Argentine 1909 Carbines that have the receiver polished by sellers or importers that should be blued. As a general guide, if it is blued it is a rebuild, unless it is a very late Argentine made gun....All of the original German made guns had rust blued barrels and trigger housings, the rest of the parts were temper blued, except the bolt and receiver...There were no exceptions allowed by the Argentine Purchasing Comission. What happened later was done by the various arsenals and shops in Argentina....

Ref: Argentine Mauser Rifles 1871-1957 by Colin Webster

After doing some digging, I want to go back to the store to confirm that it is in fact an Engineer's, or Mountain, carbine and not a Calvary carbine. I'm 99% it has a pistol-grip stock and not a straight stock, but of course we know that the stock is not original to the carbine. Also, the stock goes all the way to the muzzle - I believe that the stocks on the Mountain carbines did not go all the way to the muzzle?

The left side of the receiver ring has:

EJERCITO ARGENTINO
MAUSER MOD. 1909

I can't find any literature that says the Calvary carbines had that marking, but what I can and can't find doesn't really mean much!

Forward of that is, "D.G.F.M. (F.M.A.P.), which I believe means it was manufactured by Fabrica Militar de Armas Portatiles. Is that correct? Does that make it less valuable than one manufactured by DWM?

 

[Abulg1972]

Based on a few current auctions of 1909 Cavalry carbines, it appears that the price is pretty good, but if I decide to buy it once I figure out what, exactly, it is, I am definitely going to pitch the fact that the stock does not match. I need to have them pull it down for me so I can look at all the visible parts and see what does and does not match. Honestly, I'd rather have a full-size Modelo 1909, but I don't know that I have the cash to get one right now. All of the ones I've seen lately have gone for $700+ except for one that was beautiful but didn't have a matching stock (went for $350, which I couldn't believe).

 

[Abulg1972]

My Argentine-made cav carb has a straight stock and blued receiver. All numbers match. As to Argie prices in general, local cabelas has a gorgeous 91 long rifle. Price: $545.99. Yes, it's pretty, and this Cabelas will deal on price, but $549.99? Geez. Maybe if they knocked a hundred bucks off, and maybe if the crest wasn't scrubbed, and maybe if I just HAD to have it....

On the upside, the 91s I have are apparently worth at lot more than I thought. Don't recall what I paid for my carb several years ago, but believe it was under $400.

I think it's not common at all to have the crest scrubbed on a 1909. Almost always on an 1891, but not on a 1909.

$550 for a nice matching full size 1909 is a great price. You should snatch that up. If you don't want it, please PM me details. Recent all matching 1909 on gunbroker went for over $750.


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[Abulg1972]

Correction: My 09 is an engineer carbine, takes a bayonet, has no cleaning rod. It is marked F.M.A.P. MAUSER MOD. 1909 DIRECCION GENERAL DE FABRICACCIONES MILITARES. I agree with hodgie on the price; that incorrect stock is a major bargaining chip for you.

BTW local cabelas also had a nice 1909 long rifle. Same price. It sold quick. Sign of the times?

Oh, and what is the asking price on that GEW 88 to the left of the Mauser?

Albug1972, that rifle still at cabelas in Grand Junction, CO, is an 1891, not a 1909. Not only is the receiver scrubbed, they also ground off the stamp on the stock. Someone obviously didn't want anyone to know where that rifle came from.

I don't recall the price on the 88 but I do remember it was pretty beat up. Nothing on that rack was too expensive. I am going back tomorrow to further inspect the Carbine and will check the price. That rack also has two Type 99 and one Type 38 Arisakas. One of the 99s looks nice and the 38 isn't half bad. All scrubbed mums.

 

[Abulg1972]

Bxn65 - I am still on the quest. I just haven't had time to go back to my LGS. I'm thinking, though, that I can get a better deal/better rifle through the WTS/WTB forum than I can at my LGS. I'm also trying to recover from having to buy my wife a car this weekend!


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[Abulg1972]

I hear ya. Carbine similar to yours--but with a correct stock--just sold for under $400 right here on the WTS/WTT. When you consider the cost/hassle of finding a proper stock, that LGS price would need to be pretty cheap to make the project worthwhile.

Yeah, the seller saw my post and asked if I was interested in his Mountain Carbine. He had already sold the Cavalry carbine.

I agree re: the LGS price. To me, given the cost of a correct rifle, even assuming the LGS would deal, it's not worth the money I'd save on a non-matching carbine. I'd rather spend a little more for a matching one.

 

[Abulg1972]

I am THIS close to pulling the trigger but on an 1891 rifle. It's almost pristine and everything matches except the bolt and the price is really "right". I've been hemming and hawing because of the bolt but I think I'm going to get over it since I will use this rifle, as I do almost all, to shoot and have fun. If I was dropping a grand, I might have a different viewpoint. Anyway, regarding the Gew 88 that someone (forgive me - I'm on my phone) asked about, here are some better pics for your thoughts.

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[Abulg1972]

I ended up buying the 1891. I think I got a heck of a deal. For $350 shipped, I got the rifle, a new set of RCBS dies, 50 once-fired Norma cases and 200 Hornady 174 grain round nose. He is a very nice older gentlemen and I got the sense that he just wanted to pass it on to someone who would appreciate it.


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[Abulg1972]

Be careful when reloading for the Model 1888, 1891 Commission rifles. The "S" on your receiver indicates that it was throated for the .323" slug. The bore diameter could still be .320-.321" . I shoot .322" cast bullets in mine. Your rifle will take standard 8x57 Mauser cartridges as far as chambering is concerned. But the bore is not correct unless somewhere along the way it has had the rifling deepened to .323" groove diameter. Slug the bore to get a measure. It will last longer and stay sharper with cast slugs anyway.
Also, the 1909 Engineers carbine talked about way at the beginning of this thread has been reblued along the way. Surprisingly, the price for the Engineer's carbine is pretty fair as is. You might get it a bit cheaper as the numbers are not matched, but don't bet on it. Check the condition of the bore as many of these look nice on the outside but are shot out. The stocks are not full length Mannlicher style stocks, but these are definately short rifles and are and have always been quite rare. Also called Mountain Carbines. See Mr. Webster's book. The Model 1891 Argentine Engineers carbine is a modification of the standard Model 1891 Cavalry Carbine. The Engineer's carbine was a modification of an 1891 Cavalry Carbine made by adding bayonet lugs to the barrel and a cut-down version of the Remington 1879 Remington Rolling block bayonet was fit. I have two of these carbines in excellent shape and just had to have a bayonet to fit. If you want sticker shock, pay $400 for one of those....
All for now,
Thors

I think you're talking about the Gew88 pictured above? I didn't buy it. I was posting the pics in response to a prior post. I ended up buying a 1899 Argentine Model 1891 rifle.


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[Abulg1972]

So, my quest for an Argentine Mauser is partially realized. I got a Model 1891 (1899 manufacture) on Friday. The bolt doesn't match (same series, but off by about 2,000) and has some light rust on the underside, which I think I should be able to remove with some penetrating oil and fine steel wool. Everything else matches, including the cleaning rod and the bluing is very good overall. I'm pretty pleased.

http://s262.photobucket.com/user/abulgin/library/Argy 1891

 

[Abulg1972]

So, my quest for an Argentine Mauser is partially realized. I got a Model 1891 (1899 manufacture) on Friday. The bolt doesn't match (same series, but off by about 2,000) and has some light rust on the underside, which I think I should be able to remove with some penetrating oil and fine steel wool. Everything else matches, including the cleaning rod and the bluing is very good overall. I'm pretty pleased.

http://s262.photobucket.com/user/abulgin/library/Argy 1891

I uploaded some better photos.

http://s262.photobucket.com/user/abulgin/library/Argy 1891. I like it a lot.