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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Repost of a very substantial thread from the old board:
http://old.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=60133

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böfei
Posted - 08/27/2004 : 12:20:39 AM
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Anyone know what this marking on the stock means?
D.M.G.L.M 1493
its on both side of the stock


Luso308
Posted - 08/27/2004 : 12:59:09 PM
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D.M.G.L.M 1493

Direcção Militar Geral Lourenço Marques

General Military Directorate Lourenço Marques

Lourenço Marques was the capital city of Portuguese Moçambique (Mozambique) until the... independence (!!!) in 1975. Today´s Maputo.

Did you chek out the "9"?
It is a 9 or a 6?
Does the butt have the Carlos I Cartouche?


böfei
Posted - 08/27/2004 : 1:10:18 PM
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its a 9 not a 6 Hats the significance?
Its faint but it does look like a "Crown" C on the butt.


Luso308
Posted - 08/27/2004 : 3:47:54 PM
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Hum... I was thinking that it could be a date. Mine has not the DMGLM but the Cartouche c on the but and C131 on the right side, near the front receiver ring.
By the way, a pic of the trenches in northern Moçambique (1915) of portuguese soldiers then fighting the germans...





Luso308
Posted - 08/27/2004 : 5:02:24 PM
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My M904...





böfei
Posted - 08/27/2004 : 10:12:54 PM
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Luso
here is the one I got
Please tell me more about these rifles, if you know it

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1886lebel
Posted - 08/28/2004 : 12:25:00 AM
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Very interesting photograph .........
Portugal in East African Campaign of WW1
The Portuguese garrison in Mozambique consisted of ten native companies (companhias indigenas); an elite mixed unit (Guarda Republicana de Lourenço Marques) which comprised of white cavalry, black infantry and mixed artillery battery; and one artillery battery. There were also armed police units spread throughout the territory. The native company had 250 askaris with a white captain, four junior officers and white NCO's down to corporal. The askaris carried the 8mm M1887 Kropatscheck rifles.
Even before Portugal entered the war on March 10 1916 they reinforced the territory with Mainland Metroplolitan Forces which amounted to an infantry battalion, cavalry squadron, a four-gun mountain artillery battery, and engineer, medical and services detachment, in all 1,527 men. This force spent thier time in the northern region of the territory building roads and fortified posts along the frontier with German East Afrika. These men carried the Espingarda Portugueza 6.5 Mo.1904 and Carabina M.1893 Roumanian. The MG used was the Maxim and standard artillery piece was the version of the French 75mm Mountain Gun.
In October of 1915 even though they were still Neutral they sent a second force to the territory to replace the first one which had succumbed to fever and diease. This force was similiar to the first one but with an machine gun group. The colony also began to organise additional units called Companhias Indigenas Expeditionárias as they were meant to operate outside of the confines of the colony proper. There were also five MG batteries raised called Batarias Indigenas de Metraladores.
In March 1916 the Portuguese sent a third and stronger expedition to the colony which added 4,538 European troops. This force arrived in July of 1916 and was made up of the third battalions of Regimentos de Infantaria No. 23, 24, and 28 and two reinforcing companies for No. 21; three more machine gun groups (No. 4, 5, and 8), five artillery groups along with enginners, medical service units.
In May of 1916 the Portuguese made a move to cross the Rovuma River but had been repulsed so they decided to build strong fortification/outposts along its borders instead. In September Lisbon demanded that a new offensive be conducted immediately as failure to do so would lower the nation's military prestige. This time they managed to cross the river and drive the Germans back towards Lindi, however they were counter-attacked at Nevala in October and driven back across the river where they settled down to try to hold its line. The second expeditionary force were involved in this fighting which consited of the 3rd Bn of Regimento de Infanteria No.21, Machine Gun group No.7, a squadron from the Regimento de Cavalaria No.3, a mountain artillery group along with engineer, medical and services units. The native units involved were the Guardia Republicana, No.17,19 and 24 Companies of Companhias Indigenas Expeditionárias and 1a Companhia of Nyassa Company.
The askaris suffered more battle casualties then the Metropolitan Forces but the Europeans losses from disease were ten times more than that of the Africans. The Portuguese had demonstrated that they were no no match against the Germans and the German commander Lt.Col. Paul Emil von Lettow Vorbeck concluded that 500 German troops could easily handle 1,500 Portuguese troops.
After the disastrous Nevala campaign Lisbon again sent another expeditionary force consisting of the third battalions of the three infantry regiments, No. 29, 30 and 31, two mountain artillery batteries and a company of engineers, in all about 4,058 men.
In 1917 as the British and Belgian forces were advancing in German East Afrika driving the Germans further south they decided to take the fight to Mozambique and in November crossed the Rovuma River. The Portuguese had been asked to hold the line and one outpost at Negomano which was in the path of the German advance was captured where they acquired, food, clothing, medical supplies, ammo and weapons. After acquiring these neede supplies they continued thier fight southwards capturing various outposts and garrisons. The Germans just kept rolling throughout the colony in 1918 defeating the various Portuguese units until September of 1918 when they slipped back into German East Afrika under British pursuit never having bieng defeated until the news from the Armistice was received.
The Portuguese Army had shown little or lack of fighting capability due to poor level of training and low morale but this was due to that many of thier officers were reluctant to serve in Africa at all. Another factor was political as Portugal was divided into going to war in the first place and were reluctant to take any further part in the war but only did so for fear of losing the colonies it possesed.
There were excepted units that had fought well such as Capt. Curado 21a Companhia Indigena Expeditionário which had put a stiff resistance at Serra Mecula in 1917/18
Patrick


böfei
Posted - 08/28/2004 : 01:41:57 AM
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Luso
Do you shoot your 1904
Shot mine today with very good first results!
May post some targets later.
Also should these say vegeiro on the side?


Luso308
Posted - 08/28/2004 : 07:05:58 AM
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The sad description that Patrick made was true. After the overthrow of the King (Manuel II - I hear that there are Vergueiros with an M and II on the receiver ring, just like the Lugers) the military suffered purges and the enemies of the regime were later sent to fight in Flanders where the casualty rate was high. These new republican politicians never supported the troops and the Corpo Expedicionário Português on the Western Front was maintained by the British. Portuguese forces stayed on the front line trenches for more than twice the time of their british counterparts and always undersupplied. The officers were most eager to return to Portugal and were not replaced (!!) - weak kings make strong people weak.
My greatgrandfather was gas wounded during the 1918 offensive and captured by the Germans. He died of those wounds later in 1923.
And no. I still have to shoot that M904 because of lack of ammo...


Carcano
Posted - 08/28/2004 : 09:21:59 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Luso308
My M904...
Luso:
that is a strikingly beautiful picture of your gun !

However, it it makes the whole thread illegible, as
you will have found out now. The long historical posting
of 1886Lebel thus is a pain in the ass to read.
Therefore, the pic is quite inconsiderate.

Please be as kind as to re-size it to a suitable width.
Many thanks !


Luso308
Posted - 08/28/2004 : 09:47:54 AM
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Sorry, Carcano (and others)!
But how may I do that?
I have already resized the photo and I need to re-edit that post...


böfei
Posted - 08/28/2004 : 11:34:52 AM
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Carcano.. Its not that bad, also he was first lebel was second.
I liked the foto being that large. I could see all the details.

Luso, the easiest way to make internet friendly pics is to change the "resolution" stored
by your camera (Digital). I set my camera to 640x480. Since most people have screen resolutions much higher than this, you can normally post them straight from your camera, with only minor croping or rotating.

No ammo is available here either, we have to make it. :)


1886lebel
Moderator French Firearms Board
Posted - 08/28/2004 : 5:30:29 PM
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Portugal on the Western Front .......
http://www.worldwar1.com/france/portugal.htm


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Arditi
Posted - 08/28/2004 : 9:37:45 PM
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Bofei,
I like to see that rifle at the match tommorrow! Lucky dog.
Arditi www.arditi43.com


böfei
Posted - 08/29/2004 : 01:21:09 AM
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It will be there with me Arditi!!
Thanks to all above for a great thread.


Arditi
Posted - 08/29/2004 : 5:48:41 PM
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She shoots like a dream! Now you have to trade her to your old buddy Arditi. Ha ha... www.arditi43.com


Luso308
Posted - 09/02/2004 : 06:02:48 AM
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Picture of portuguese colonial troops (first years of the XX Century).
What is the machine-gunner carrying?
A Vergueiro Carbine?
I never considered its existence...




tplan
Posted - 09/13/2004 : 1:50:21 PM
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Patrick has a nice precis of Portuguese involvement in the East African campaign. I remember conversing with a guy (can't find his email now) from South Africa about six or seven years ago about the use of Vergueiros by the South Africans against German South-West Africa. Apparently, Most of the Enfields in South Africa were shipped to Britain for use in France fairly early on in the war. The Portuguese made the South Africans a gift (Lend-Lease type deal?) of some thousands of Vergueiros and ammunition. 6.5mm Vergueiros are thus fairly common in South Africa now, some with SA markings. This guy (I think his name was Freddy) was doing a survey of serial #s, his theory being that certain serial # blocks were more common in SA. He and I both believe that blued bolts on Vergueiros are the result of reworks. Most 1904/39s have blued bolts. One of my three 6.5mm 1904s has a polished bolt, and it is the only non-recent import. The older pictures in references such as Olsen all show polished bolts. Any body hear of/from Freddy, if that is his name?
John


böfei
Posted - 09/13/2004 : 2:01:45 PM
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there is a good article on S.African 1904s in DWJ (Deutsches Waffen Journal)
their example is clearly marked "broadarrow" in a U (U for Union of South Africa)
and U.D.F

From the 3 examples I have seen 2 have been Mozambique rifles. One not.
what are your three?


tplan
Posted - 09/13/2004 : 7:12:15 PM
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Bofei (sorry, no umlaut),
One of my rifles is D.M.G.L.M. marked (#1014 if anyone's counting these). One isn't, but has the same general level of wear, apparently sanded stock, and US import marks that the three or four Mozambique rifles I've seen have. It also appeared about the same time they showed up, so I'd guess it came from the same place, but didn't receive the property mark. It is mismatched and came with a Gew.98 triggerguard, but has no US import marks, and has generally a better metal finish than the others. The stock is dinged, but has a nice, old, red-brown finish on it, and one of the nicest CR cyphers I've seen. This is also the rifle that came with the bolt that's still in the white. I'd wager it's not been to Africa. I do like these rifles. I remember seeing a picture when the Aussies went in to East Timor ('98?) of a cache of arms they recovered with something that looked very much like Vergueiros laying there. Wonder what became of them?
I'd very much like to see the image of the arrow/U maek if you can reproduce it. Thanks for the information.
John


böfei
Posted - 09/13/2004 : 7:47:48 PM
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I can see what I can do about the images, hopefully DWJ wont freak.
There are two DMGLM rifles here and one not. One thing I have noticed is none of the DMGLM rifles have the cursive P proof to the left of the DWM marks. But all of the non DMGLM rifles I have seen have a cursive P

my samples are limited to 3 at the moment and two in the DWJ for a total of 5. I am guessing this P is some prrof that didn't apply yo guns sent to the colonies.

Maybe luso will chyme back in.


tplan
Posted - 09/13/2004 : 8:25:25 PM
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Interesting, I hadn't seen one without the cursive P. My D.M.G.L.M. has it, but, the stock doesn't match the action, so there's no help. That brings me back to the South African fellow (darn it, my correspondence with him is on the old hard drive I've managed to screw up). He believed that most, if not all the rifles supplied to the South Africans fell within just two letter prefix blocks, and I think they were F & G. My D.M.G.L.M. stock belongs to serial # F9938. Two of my rifles are D prefix, and the action in the D.M.G.L.M. stock is B prefix. D.M.G.L.M. 971 is currently for sale (am I allowed to mention the website here?) and there are pictures, but they are too distant for me to make out whether or not the script P is there. John


dg13
Posted - 09/13/2004 : 10:22:12 PM
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HERE IS THE WEB SITE REFERED TO: http://www.saaaca.org.za/links/SIG/mauserSA.htm

PS I was always of the opinion that the m1886 Port rifle w top wood was used in the colonies and so was the carbine.


böfei
Posted - 09/13/2004 : 10:43:21 PM
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my rifle didn't have a serial number above the wood,
under the wood (I think) is A4xx and the bolt is a k2xx
with no script P.
The other local DMGLM rifle is in almost identical condition, beat outside, good inside also with no script P


My impression from the artical about S.African 1904s was they were shipped out of Portugal. It would also stand to reason that the 6.5 1904s were still in "standard" use in mozambique since the 8mm conversion had only recently started (1939~40) so Ithink the likely hood that a mozambique rifle ending up as lend lease in S.Africa would be very remote at best.

8mm 1904s would have been a better choice for S. Africa since the brits already had 8x57 as a standard round in their inventory. But I don't think the portuguese had very many converted to 8mm that early.

Its my opinion that the 6.5 rifles in this country were probably war recoveries in Mozambique (based alot on photos above), or from local armories in mozambiquw emptied by the Portuguese and returned to portugal to deny the locals additional weapons towards the end of the conflict. This woudl ahve occured in the early to mid 1970s. Therefore there missing the 8mm update alltogether. Then sold in mass with the 8mms to us.
This is completely subject to change but the only way I can explain what I have observed thus far in these weapons.

tplan
Lets keep this thread alive, I may msg Luso and the others to respark some interest here. Once I find that issue with the 1904s I will post what I can.
If you speak German DWJ tends to have at least one good to good + article on older milsurp rifles every month. (give them a plug so they wont gripe when i post their pics)


tplan
Posted - 09/13/2004 : 11:58:58 PM
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dg13,
That's the guy. Thanks for the link. This should help a bit.
John


böfei
Posted - 09/14/2004 : 01:04:10 AM
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O.K. here are the pics from the Nov 2003 DWJ
of a S.African used 1904

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ssnider
Posted - 09/14/2004 : 5:49:51 PM
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Now if there was a reasonable source of ammo for us non reloaders.
PS mine is South Afician (arrow in U) marked , has the cursive P in circle mark.


böfei
Posted - 09/14/2004 : 7:44:52 PM
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Thanks for the info ssnider!
does it have the U.D.F also?
so yours is following this pattern of markings.

If there is a weapon worth reloading for its this one!


ssnider
Posted - 09/14/2004 : 8:10:42 PM
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Yup on the U.D.F. and number on top of the but plate


lhemrod
South Africa
Posted - 03/06/2007 : 08:29:34 AM
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I know this post is pretty late but hopefully there are still some guys with responses out there.
I have one of the South African 6.5 Vergueiro 1904 Mausers that I inherited from my grandfather. The rifle has been in my family since my great grandfather was issued this rifle in the campaign in South West Africa. According to my father the rifle was brand new when it was issued to his grandfather. At the end of the war the then UDF gave the rifles to the soldiers as gifts.

I have since inherited the rifle from my father. I never had much interest in the rifle but since doing some research, found that the history behind these fire arms are extremely interesting.

At first I wanted to sport the rifle but now have decided against it. I am finding it extremely difficult to find ammo for the rifle. I live in South Africa where you would think that ammo is still available.
I am not familiar with reloading etc. Where will I find used cartridges? Where do I start?
Can anyone point me in the right direction?

Any information will be greatly appreciated


dg13
Posted - 03/06/2007 : 9:13:34 PM
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Johan,
I would suggest that you post your question on the Mauser Board. Due to the Boer Wars a few people from So Africa are sometimes there. Ask them and I'll bet they would have an answer.


JPS
Posted - 03/10/2007 : 01:50:28 AM
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I have two of the M1904s in that are both matching, in the original 6.5 chambering and both have brightly polished bolts. The blued bolts that appear on the majority of the later conversions were blued during the rebuilding process.

I'm not home, so I can check the serial number blocks on these rifles. I also do not recall if either one of them is UDF marked? Both are marked with the DMGLM mark, while the example shown below is marked on both sides of the stock in different places.

The photos below appear in Bob Ball's "Military Mauser Rifles of the World". Here are the photos that appear in Bob's book.

I have fired both of my rifles and they are extremely accurate with my handloads. A sample target is included below.

Neat stuff and great info! Thank you one and all for your input.



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Carcano
Posted - 08/10/2007 : 6:17:26 PM
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I was able to scrounge some commercial 6,5x58 P Kynoch ammo (probably 1960s) and hope to acquire the fitting rifle soon ;-).


ssnider
Posted - 08/11/2007 : 10:45:50 AM
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ARG! where did you find it and is there any more? Got the gun, not the ammo. Nice find


lhemrod
South Africa
7 Posts
Posted - 08/13/2007 : 02:49:40 AM
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Where did you find the ammo? Do you know if there is any more for sale? I have the rifle but am also looking for the ammo. I was able to find some brass that was created from .270 win cartridges from http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,3494.htm
You will have to reload yourself and can find reload data at http://www.accuratereloading.com/6558.html
And bullets from https://www.hornady.com/shop/?ps_se...&category_id=0d067b6b6a2b64fcbdc1ca279807a686

It is of course easier just buying some so if anyone has some for sale please give us a shout.


böfei
Posted - 08/13/2007 : 4:26:05 PM
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I tend to stay away from the boards these days but..
This is probably one of the easiest conversions I have done.

Use 7x57 brass sized down to 6.5 (comes out almsot perfect)
I used a 6.5 swede die to size it down, size down slowely until it will chamber.

Use standard 6.5 bullets. I would steer people away from Hornady 160s.
Mine likes the s140mk the best. Avoid bullets with alot of bearing surface.

No need for special converted brass or custom bullets.

I have some loads I will mail to you privatly, but will not post. eMail me


lhemrod
South Africa
Posted - 08/14/2007 : 03:32:56 AM
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There is some [sc. Kynoch] ammo for sale http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=78239676
Maybe someone in the US will be interested.
 
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